This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

The accumulation of small heritable changes within populations over time.

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This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#1  Postby MeCagoEnCristo » Nov 03, 2014 12:34 pm

Hello, everyone.

After all, the Theory of Evolution is just a theory, right?

Just kidding!


I’ve been reading posts here for a while now. I think I have a decent understanding of the ToE at a basic “science enthusiast-lover” amateur level. When I read the relevant threads, I feel like “I get it”. But then there are these issues in the back of my mind that still bother me, because when I think about them, I’m not that sure anymore. Some posts make me get the basic concepts, but then some others confuse me a little.

Was it Einstein who said that you don’t really understand something until you can explain it to your grandmother? If so, I’m right there.

I’m thinking about primitive giraffes, primitive polar bears and modern bacteria (primitive as in before they developed elongated necks and thick fur respectively).

For instance:
Basically, I’m still not sure how much, if at all, the environment directly causes or contributes to species’ gene mutations.
Most times I’m confident that beneficial mutations help members of a species survive to at least get to a reproductive age, so they can pass on their genes to their offspring. But then this nagging voice tells me: “Really?” “So most of those mutations are conveniently the ones that help them to adapt and survive better?" Then I think, “Well, the bad mutations don’t help them, so they are more likely to die out and those won’t be passed on. Only the beneficial ones do. That’s why it looks so convenient".

BUT…

Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations? Aren’t random mutations, in this context, simply a way to say we just don’t have enough data about the whole process? Aren’t these mutations the result of DNA and gene mistakes when they go through the “copying” process?

It’s almost as if necessity somehow “told” the genes that mutating for long necks would be helpful, but I’m not aware of such a mechanism.
Sorry about putting it in such a clumsy way, but it almost sounds like it. Especially because I still don’t understand what is it that makes the genes keep going on towards that beneficial direction once they got it initially. For example, can a beneficial tendency be randomly inverted and canceled out or even reverted? What prevents a giraffe’s genes from suddenly changing direction and now start shrinking their necks? I suppose this is where natural selection really kicks in, but if this tendency reverted, could it cause this species’ eventual extinction? What would prevent such a thing?
How many genes are involved in this neck-elongation process? How many mutations can a primitive giraffe (with no long neck) have before getting the useful one that starts elongating their necks? Why not one that elongates their feet instead?

Same with a polar bear. How many useless mutations did they have before getting the one that makes them better adapted for cold weather (i.e., thick fur)? Why didn’t they develop a different mutation that still helped them instead?
But why didn’t other species of bears get that same mutation (i.e., Mexican grizzly bear)? Was it the environment? If so, how does this work? I don’t even know if they are really different species (i.e., whether they can interbreed to produce viable offspring).
What prevented these bears that lived in Mexico from NOT getting a gene for thick fur like their northern counterparts?

Is there a mechanism where future gene mutations respond to the environment directly? Isn’t that what bacteria do, to adapt to the new environment and become immune to newly developed vaccines or anti-bacterial drugs? They seem to mutate the moment something harmful gets in their environment...

How is it decided which genes to mutate in order to survive? It seems to be much more obvious and fast in this case.
It seems like there’s more than just "plain" natural selection.



I hope I’m making at least some sense… I’m still hoping to hear those “I-got-it ding ding” bells, but the silence is still deafening…

See? It would be so much easier to just say “godidit” :whine:

Thank you for any insight,
Fernando
"There's random genetic variation, and non-random survival, and non-random reproduction, which is why, as the generations go by, animals get better at doing what they do. That is quintessentially non-random". ― Richard Dawkins
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#2  Postby kennyc » Nov 03, 2014 2:08 pm

MeCagoEnCristo wrote:....
BUT…

Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations? Aren’t random mutations, in this context, simply a way to say we just don’t have enough data about the whole process? Aren’t these mutations the result of DNA and gene mistakes when they go through the “copying” process?
.....


No. We know pretty much exactly what causes mutations. The environment then allows those beneficial mutations to survive and propagate.
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#3  Postby Shrunk » Nov 03, 2014 2:55 pm

MeCagoEnCristo wrote:Is there a mechanism where future gene mutations respond to the environment directly? Isn’t that what bacteria do, to adapt to the new environment and become immune to newly developed vaccines or anti-bacterial drugs? They seem to mutate the moment something harmful gets in their environment...


They may seem to, but they don't. The much faster reproduction cycle of bacteria, compared to bigger organisms like giraffes and polar bears, is what give that appearance. Bacteria are reproducing so rapidly that novel mutations are arising in a given population all the time. And if a course of antibiotics wipes out all the bacteria except the lucky few who have inherited a resistance to the medication, then the survivors will soon profliferate and take over the niche that was once occupied by their non-resistant relatives. That could happen in a matter of hours. Whereas it would take many years for a benficial mutation to fix itself in a bear population.
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#4  Postby epepke » Nov 03, 2014 2:57 pm

Yours is a common phase in going from not understanding to understanding evolution, but there are too many to deal with, so I'll focus on one.

MeCagoEnCristo wrote:How is it decided which genes to mutate in order to survive? It seems to be much more obvious and fast in this case.


It isn't. I think you are going about this backward. You're thinking that there's a pressure, and then there's a mutation to respond to it.

That's a human categorization. Because we're so interested in successful mutations, we tend to think they are special, causing error.

Instead, try going about it this way: all genes mutate all the time. Things don't really go with this wild abandon, but this is much closer to the truth. Only you don't notice it because it doesn't make any difference.

Take your polar bear example. It wasn't that bears were never white until they went up there. Every once in a while, there was probably a bear with a bit of white or a lot of white or even an albino who was all white. But this was over millions of years, and Facebook hadn't been invented yet, so there aren't a lot of pictures. Their unusual characteristics either got diluted back into the gene pool or died out, because maybe white bears weren't considered very sexy.

So then it starts to snow a bit. The mutation rate doesn't change, at least not by much, but a different thing happens to the occasional white bear that gets born. They do a lot better than their peers, and their peers die off, again over a very long time, and bears with that trait dominate the population. Then what was neutral or even a disadvantage becomes an advantage.

This is probably the only aspect in which Gould's idea of punctuated equilibrium, which I described elsewhere as mostly a tempest in a teapot, is valid. Diversity of the genome does increase the most when there isn't much natural selection. It builds up a reserve of diversity, and when things get tough, a lot of this gets winnowed out.

Just look what's happened in a few short decades with humans. Peanut allergies, for instance, were very rare when I was growing up, but now they are so common that people have to be very careful with peanuts. Assuming that this actually is an increase in allergies and not just more reporting, it seems to be a change. Who knows? Maybe some of the proteins involved in peanut allergies will turn out to be just the thing to protect against some microorganism or poison in the future, and everyone without a peanut allergy will die. Or maybe not. But that's the sort of thing that happens.

It's messy, but in the long term it works great. Unless, of course, if you're amongst the population that dies off, and chances are, you will be. Sucks to be you, or me, I guess.
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#5  Postby Briton » Nov 03, 2014 3:12 pm

MeCagoEnCristo wrote:Hello, everyone.


Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations?


Don't forget natural variation. Over time that can lead to large anatomical differences. You don't need a mutation that results in some animals having freakishly long necks, for example, compared to other members of their species. It's populations that evolve, not individuals. At least that's how I understand it.
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#6  Postby hackenslash » Nov 03, 2014 3:17 pm

Epepke wrote:Just look what's happened in a few short decades with humans. Peanut allergies, for instance, were very rare when I was growing up, but now they are so common that people have to be very careful with peanuts. Assuming that this actually is an increase in allergies and not just more reporting, it seems to be a change. Who knows? Maybe some of the proteins involved in peanut allergies will turn out to be just the thing to protect against some microorganism or poison in the future, and everyone without a peanut allergy will die. Or maybe not. But that's the sort of thing that happens.


In fact, there's a lovely example of this extant in the human population in the form of the sickle gene. In areas where the risk of infection from malaria is high, this gene actually provides an advantage as long as you don't actually have the disease (having the disease actually increases the risk of infection), in the form of providing increased resistance, so the gene proliferates. It also has an autosomal recessive pattern, meaning that if you have only one copy, it causes no other effect than said increased resistance. Where you have a copy from each of your parents, it can lead to sickle-cell anaemia, depending on the precise nature of what you inherit.

More here.
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#7  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 03, 2014 4:29 pm

MeCagoEnCristo wrote:
For instance:
Basically, I’m still not sure how much, if at all, the environment directly causes or contributes to species’ gene mutations.


There are several ingredients here. First, and most importantly is that there is natural variation in genes in a population - bear in mind that many of those genes and the variants thereof have the opportunity to undergo mutation - the pool of possibility is itself immense.

There are also plenty of environmental factors in mutations - for example, radioactivity and possibly extra-earthly particles bombarding DNA - this kind of mutation would be considered 'induced mutation'. However, another major form of mutation is in replication error, and if you think about how an organism progresses from a single cell onwards throughout embryological development, you can see how errors can creep in frequently. How many of any of these types of mutation can potentially be inheritable is another question, but in essence mutation is random and mostly unpredictable, but the ways in which mutation can occur are limited, as are the ways in which a gene can mutate: the most obvious ones being substitution, insertion, deletion, and frame-shift which, in effect, is where an insertion or deletion causes the gene's expression to be incorrectly parsed.

All of this leads to a natural pool of variation which an organism can potentially exploit under certain environmental conditions.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Most times I’m confident that beneficial mutations help members of a species survive to at least get to a reproductive age, so they can pass on their genes to their offspring. But then this nagging voice tells me: “Really?” “So most of those mutations are conveniently the ones that help them to adapt and survive better?" Then I think, “Well, the bad mutations don’t help them, so they are more likely to die out and those won’t be passed on. Only the beneficial ones do. That’s why it looks so convenient".


I think the problem there, as you said, the word 'conveniently' - there's no convenience in this; it's expressly only the beneficial mutations that can be said to be 'adaptive' or offer preferential survival. However...

This is quite a big topic, and I am far from being the best versed to explain it, but it's important to note that a mutation can hold one of 3 values: beneficial, neutral, deleterious, and that all of these measurements specifically relate to their host organism's chance of surviving and reproducing within a specific environment.

While it's clear that beneficial mutations provide a statistically better chance of survival or reproductive benefit to the organism (that's how we define them as being 'beneficial'), being beneficial is not actually a requirement for mutations to arise, persist and become stable in a population. Neutral mutations, which represent neither survival benefit nor survival deficit are simply overlooked by selection: they neither favour, nor disfavour an organism's chances. Neutral mutations account for a significant percentage of all mutations and thereby form a continuous evolution of statistical reshuffling in the population's pool. In fact, you can prove evolution in that case mathematically with only reference to statistics.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: BUT…

Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations? Aren’t random mutations, in this context, simply a way to say we just don’t have enough data about the whole process? Aren’t these mutations the result of DNA and gene mistakes when they go through the “copying” process?


Actually, the explanation would be that there was already natural variation in a population, and that natural variation was effectively the sum of neutral and some beneficial mutations which had just so happened to produce some giraffes with longer necks than others, even though there was no selective pressure there.

If you think about it, expecting beneficial mutations to pop up just when they're needed would be problematic. To follow the somewhat oversimplified giraffe analogy: If no slightly longer necked giraffes existed when the foliage was no longer within reach, then it would require either a mechanism like Lamarckism, where the giraffes that stretched and caused muscle adaptations would pass on that in the form of a slightly longer necked baby, or would require some form of Providence - a directed mutation. Actually, what would happen in the real world is that this homogenously necked species would go extinct.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: It’s almost as if necessity somehow “told” the genes that mutating for long necks would be helpful, but I’m not aware of such a mechanism.


That's because no such mechanism has been alighted on. Initially, it was indeed proposed, but the current formulation of evolution is sufficiently able to account for this apparent Providence due to naturally arising variation in a population, and of course the slightly tragic fact that the majority of species have gone extinct.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Sorry about putting it in such a clumsy way, but it almost sounds like it. Especially because I still don’t understand what is it that makes the genes keep going on towards that beneficial direction once they got it initially.


Actually, that represents a topic I am totally unable to explain in any sufficient detail - but point mutations are potentially more likely to thereby undergo further mutation. Some genes are just more susceptible to variation, or provide more variance in expression.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: For example, can a beneficial tendency be randomly inverted and canceled out or even reverted?


Absolutely, because you have to remember there's a 'direction' in that term 'beneficial' - it is beneficial towards that specific environment. If the environment changes drastically over short periods of time, then previously beneficial mutations could now potentially be considered deleterious. For example, think of the Blind Cave Tetra - a variation of the Mexican Tetra. Members of this species found themselves washed into caves where light was absent. Their previous multi-generational 'direction' towards a lit environment suddenly became a significant cost - those big eyes need powering. This offers a very speedy scenario in which 'deleterious' mutations with respect to photo sensitivity actually represented a benefit to the individual which didn't pay the cost and could potentially invest that energy doing something more profitable like shagging! :) It's important to remember that the terms harmful, beneficial etc are relevant to something: they are not absolute.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: What prevents a giraffe’s genes from suddenly changing direction and now start shrinking their necks? I suppose this is where natural selection really kicks in, but if this tendency reverted, could it cause this species’ eventual extinction? What would prevent such a thing?


To answer this obliquely, if tall vegetation became sparse, but giraffes could still bend down and eat, they would persist as a species. However, the energy and biological resources of maintaining that long neck with no real survival benefit, would instead represent a cost. Therefore the direction of 'beneficial' now would be to make savings on the length of the neck. This would, of course, take a huge number of generations - it would even necessarily ultimately result in changes to sexual selection as males won't be able to do their necking anymore. If, however, the giraffe genome could not muster this change, it's always got the right to go extinct! :grin:


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: How many genes are involved in this neck-elongation process? How many mutations can a primitive giraffe (with no long neck) have before getting the useful one that starts elongating their necks? Why not one that elongates their feet instead?


There's really no specific reasons as to why one thing happened when another could have - it just did: it's called contingency - once a strategy has been adopted it provides a 'directional' benefit towards improving on that strategy - it wouldn't be beneficial to run multiple contradictory strategies at the same time as it would cost more and they'd make each other redundant - natural selection rewards specialization.

But there's another point here: There is a limited potential morphological space any organism can evolve into gradually in accordance with natural physical laws! Widely different solutions can be happened upon that solve the same physical problems. You can see this throughout nature with similar behaviors. A mole burrows using specially adapted front claws, while a worm burrows via the flexibility of its body, strength of its muscle, and filaments on its lower section effectively bulling its way through the soil. Both represent a 'solution' to burrowing through soil, but they represent two indepently contingent paths that can arrive at soil burrowing capability given the laws of physics.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Same with a polar bear. How many useless mutations did they have before getting the one that makes them better adapted for cold weather (i.e., thick fur)? Why didn’t they develop a different mutation that still helped them instead?
But why didn’t other species of bears get that same mutation (i.e., Mexican grizzly bear)? Was it the environment? If so, how does this work? I don’t even know if they are really different species (i.e., whether they can interbreed to produce viable offspring).
What prevented these bears that lived in Mexico from NOT getting a gene for thick fur like their northern counterparts?


Nothing prevented them from doing so, but running a heavier coat of fur is more expensive than running a shorter length of fur coat. If there's no environmental pay-off, what would induce natural selection to offer preferential survival for long-coated ones? The other bears could be spending those resources on being better adapted to eating Mexicans! :grin:

You need another concept here: the notion of a trade-off. Bodies cost resources. If your body and my body can do the same thing, but my body costs substantially more to achieve that, then over generations, the net statistical selection will favour your body form. My body form and variations in between us might still exist in the population, but the mean body of the population will shift to become more like yours. This is obviously a crude example, but the point being that there is not just a reward to possessing a trait, but a cost too.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Is there a mechanism where future gene mutations respond to the environment directly? Isn’t that what bacteria do, to adapt to the new environment and become immune to newly developed vaccines or anti-bacterial drugs? They seem to mutate the moment something harmful gets in their environment...


The point with bacteria is that they have very fast generational cycles, so from our viewing, they evolve quickly. There is no directionality towards a future generations survivability - there is only this one's survivability. The ones which possess the currently beneficial traits from the pool of variation will be statistically more likely to leave behind offspring with that trait, meaning the population pool shifts to becoming more represented by organisms that are slightly better at surviving that environment. Reiterate by generation.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: How is it decided which genes to mutate in order to survive? It seems to be much more obvious and fast in this case.
It seems like there’s more than just "plain" natural selection.


No decision is made - in fact, expressly not so.

Dawkins wrote:As Sydney Brenner has remarked, natural selection could not be expected to have favoured some useless mutation in the Cambrian simply because 'it might come in handy in the Cretaceous'


Organisms evolve by contingency because they are always evolving to the current environment, not to some form of predicted one. And when the environment shifts suddenly, or they find themselves in a blind alley of evolution, then they can only evolve or go extinct. The sorting process has eradicated 99% of all species on the earth, the others represent a chain of unbroken descent - the lucky few who did manage to circumnavigate those changing environments. You need to keep all those mountains of deceased forms in mind when considering the apparent Providence of an evolutionary scenario! ;)


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: I hope I’m making at least some sense… I’m still hoping to hear those “I-got-it ding ding” bells, but the silence is still deafening…

See? It would be so much easier to just say “godidit” :whine:

Thank you for any insight,
Fernando


Cheers Fernando, hope I helped!
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#8  Postby trogs » Nov 03, 2014 4:38 pm

That Iguana looks delicious.
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#9  Postby Blackadder » Nov 03, 2014 9:04 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:
For instance:
Basically, I’m still not sure how much, if at all, the environment directly causes or contributes to species’ gene mutations.


There are several ingredients here. First, and most importantly is that there is natural variation in genes in a population - bear in mind that many of those genes and the variants thereof have the opportunity to undergo mutation - the pool of possibility is itself immense.

There are also plenty of environmental factors in mutations - for example, radioactivity and possibly extra-earthly particles bombarding DNA - this kind of mutation would be considered 'induced mutation'. However, another major form of mutation is in replication error, and if you think about how an organism progresses from a single cell onwards throughout embryological development, you can see how errors can creep in frequently. How many of any of these types of mutation can potentially be inheritable is another question, but in essence mutation is random and mostly unpredictable, but the ways in which mutation can occur are limited, as are the ways in which a gene can mutate: the most obvious ones being substitution, insertion, deletion, and frame-shift which, in effect, is where an insertion or deletion causes the gene's expression to be incorrectly parsed.

All of this leads to a natural pool of variation which an organism can potentially exploit under certain environmental conditions.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Most times I’m confident that beneficial mutations help members of a species survive to at least get to a reproductive age, so they can pass on their genes to their offspring. But then this nagging voice tells me: “Really?” “So most of those mutations are conveniently the ones that help them to adapt and survive better?" Then I think, “Well, the bad mutations don’t help them, so they are more likely to die out and those won’t be passed on. Only the beneficial ones do. That’s why it looks so convenient".


I think the problem there, as you said, the word 'conveniently' - there's no convenience in this; it's expressly only the beneficial mutations that can be said to be 'adaptive' or offer preferential survival. However...

This is quite a big topic, and I am far from being the best versed to explain it, but it's important to note that a mutation can hold one of 3 values: beneficial, neutral, deleterious, and that all of these measurements specifically relate to their host organism's chance of surviving and reproducing within a specific environment.

While it's clear that beneficial mutations provide a statistically better chance of survival or reproductive benefit to the organism (that's how we define them as being 'beneficial'), being beneficial is not actually a requirement for mutations to arise, persist and become stable in a population. Neutral mutations, which represent neither survival benefit nor survival deficit are simply overlooked by selection: they neither favour, nor disfavour an organism's chances. Neutral mutations account for a significant percentage of all mutations and thereby form a continuous evolution of statistical reshuffling in the population's pool. In fact, you can prove evolution in that case mathematically with only reference to statistics.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: BUT…

Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations? Aren’t random mutations, in this context, simply a way to say we just don’t have enough data about the whole process? Aren’t these mutations the result of DNA and gene mistakes when they go through the “copying” process?


Actually, the explanation would be that there was already natural variation in a population, and that natural variation was effectively the sum of neutral and some beneficial mutations which had just so happened to produce some giraffes with longer necks than others, even though there was no selective pressure there.

If you think about it, expecting beneficial mutations to pop up just when they're needed would be problematic. To follow the somewhat oversimplified giraffe analogy: If no slightly longer necked giraffes existed when the foliage was no longer within reach, then it would require either a mechanism like Lamarckism, where the giraffes that stretched and caused muscle adaptations would pass on that in the form of a slightly longer necked baby, or would require some form of Providence - a directed mutation. Actually, what would happen in the real world is that this homogenously necked species would go extinct.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: It’s almost as if necessity somehow “told” the genes that mutating for long necks would be helpful, but I’m not aware of such a mechanism.


That's because no such mechanism has been alighted on. Initially, it was indeed proposed, but the current formulation of evolution is sufficiently able to account for this apparent Providence due to naturally arising variation in a population, and of course the slightly tragic fact that the majority of species have gone extinct.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Sorry about putting it in such a clumsy way, but it almost sounds like it. Especially because I still don’t understand what is it that makes the genes keep going on towards that beneficial direction once they got it initially.


Actually, that represents a topic I am totally unable to explain in any sufficient detail - but point mutations are potentially more likely to thereby undergo further mutation. Some genes are just more susceptible to variation, or provide more variance in expression.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: For example, can a beneficial tendency be randomly inverted and canceled out or even reverted?


Absolutely, because you have to remember there's a 'direction' in that term 'beneficial' - it is beneficial towards that specific environment. If the environment changes drastically over short periods of time, then previously beneficial mutations could now potentially be considered deleterious. For example, think of the Blind Cave Tetra - a variation of the Mexican Tetra. Members of this species found themselves washed into caves where light was absent. Their previous multi-generational 'direction' towards a lit environment suddenly became a significant cost - those big eyes need powering. This offers a very speedy scenario in which 'deleterious' mutations with respect to photo sensitivity actually represented a benefit to the individual which didn't pay the cost and could potentially invest that energy doing something more profitable like shagging! :) It's important to remember that the terms harmful, beneficial etc are relevant to something: they are not absolute.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: What prevents a giraffe’s genes from suddenly changing direction and now start shrinking their necks? I suppose this is where natural selection really kicks in, but if this tendency reverted, could it cause this species’ eventual extinction? What would prevent such a thing?


To answer this obliquely, if tall vegetation became sparse, but giraffes could still bend down and eat, they would persist as a species. However, the energy and biological resources of maintaining that long neck with no real survival benefit, would instead represent a cost. Therefore the direction of 'beneficial' now would be to make savings on the length of the neck. This would, of course, take a huge number of generations - it would even necessarily ultimately result in changes to sexual selection as males won't be able to do their necking anymore. If, however, the giraffe genome could not muster this change, it's always got the right to go extinct! :grin:


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: How many genes are involved in this neck-elongation process? How many mutations can a primitive giraffe (with no long neck) have before getting the useful one that starts elongating their necks? Why not one that elongates their feet instead?


There's really no specific reasons as to why one thing happened when another could have - it just did: it's called contingency - once a strategy has been adopted it provides a 'directional' benefit towards improving on that strategy - it wouldn't be beneficial to run multiple contradictory strategies at the same time as it would cost more and they'd make each other redundant - natural selection rewards specialization.

But there's another point here: There is a limited potential morphological space any organism can evolve into gradually in accordance with natural physical laws! Widely different solutions can be happened upon that solve the same physical problems. You can see this throughout nature with similar behaviors. A mole burrows using specially adapted front claws, while a worm burrows via the flexibility of its body, strength of its muscle, and filaments on its lower section effectively bulling its way through the soil. Both represent a 'solution' to burrowing through soil, but they represent two indepently contingent paths that can arrive at soil burrowing capability given the laws of physics.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Same with a polar bear. How many useless mutations did they have before getting the one that makes them better adapted for cold weather (i.e., thick fur)? Why didn’t they develop a different mutation that still helped them instead?
But why didn’t other species of bears get that same mutation (i.e., Mexican grizzly bear)? Was it the environment? If so, how does this work? I don’t even know if they are really different species (i.e., whether they can interbreed to produce viable offspring).
What prevented these bears that lived in Mexico from NOT getting a gene for thick fur like their northern counterparts?


Nothing prevented them from doing so, but running a heavier coat of fur is more expensive than running a shorter length of fur coat. If there's no environmental pay-off, what would induce natural selection to offer preferential survival for long-coated ones? The other bears could be spending those resources on being better adapted to eating Mexicans! :grin:

You need another concept here: the notion of a trade-off. Bodies cost resources. If your body and my body can do the same thing, but my body costs substantially more to achieve that, then over generations, the net statistical selection will favour your body form. My body form and variations in between us might still exist in the population, but the mean body of the population will shift to become more like yours. This is obviously a crude example, but the point being that there is not just a reward to possessing a trait, but a cost too.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Is there a mechanism where future gene mutations respond to the environment directly? Isn’t that what bacteria do, to adapt to the new environment and become immune to newly developed vaccines or anti-bacterial drugs? They seem to mutate the moment something harmful gets in their environment...


The point with bacteria is that they have very fast generational cycles, so from our viewing, they evolve quickly. There is no directionality towards a future generations survivability - there is only this one's survivability. The ones which possess the currently beneficial traits from the pool of variation will be statistically more likely to leave behind offspring with that trait, meaning the population pool shifts to becoming more represented by organisms that are slightly better at surviving that environment. Reiterate by generation.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: How is it decided which genes to mutate in order to survive? It seems to be much more obvious and fast in this case.
It seems like there’s more than just "plain" natural selection.


No decision is made - in fact, expressly not so.

Dawkins wrote:As Sydney Brenner has remarked, natural selection could not be expected to have favoured some useless mutation in the Cambrian simply because 'it might come in handy in the Cretaceous'


Organisms evolve by contingency because they are always evolving to the current environment, not to some form of predicted one. And when the environment shifts suddenly, or they find themselves in a blind alley of evolution, then they can only evolve or go extinct. The sorting process has eradicated 99% of all species on the earth, the others represent a chain of unbroken descent - the lucky few who did manage to circumnavigate those changing environments. You need to keep all those mountains of deceased forms in mind when considering the apparent Providence of an evolutionary scenario! ;)


MeCagoEnCristo wrote: I hope I’m making at least some sense… I’m still hoping to hear those “I-got-it ding ding” bells, but the silence is still deafening…

See? It would be so much easier to just say “godidit” :whine:

Thank you for any insight,
Fernando


Cheers Fernando, hope I helped!


Excellent post. Thanks! :thumbup:
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#10  Postby MeCagoEnCristo » Nov 03, 2014 9:55 pm

Wow.

I opened the topic and it was full of great answers. Thank you all so much!

Please allow me a little time to digest all the information you´ve kindly given me. I´ll respond shorty.


Spearthrower, that was an AWESOME and detailed reply!

:cheers: -----> I Need that glass of wine for digestion of information
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#11  Postby epepke » Nov 03, 2014 10:32 pm

hackenslash wrote:
Epepke wrote:Just look what's happened in a few short decades with humans. Peanut allergies, for instance, were very rare when I was growing up, but now they are so common that people have to be very careful with peanuts. Assuming that this actually is an increase in allergies and not just more reporting, it seems to be a change. Who knows? Maybe some of the proteins involved in peanut allergies will turn out to be just the thing to protect against some microorganism or poison in the future, and everyone without a peanut allergy will die. Or maybe not. But that's the sort of thing that happens.


In fact, there's a lovely example of this extant in the human population in the form of the sickle gene. In areas where the risk of infection from malaria is high, this gene actually provides an advantage as long as you don't actually have the disease (having the disease actually increases the risk of infection), in the form of providing increased resistance, so the gene proliferates. It also has an autosomal recessive pattern, meaning that if you have only one copy, it causes no other effect than said increased resistance. Where you have a copy from each of your parents, it can lead to sickle-cell anaemia, depending on the precise nature of what you inherit.

More here.


Yes, and there are quite a few adaptations to malaria, if memory serves, about a half dozen of them. Favism is another one, which is a bit less unpleasant than sickle cell anemia. If you eat too many fava beans, you die, but if you eat a little, you get some resistance. That one's interesting, because it's found where people eat fava beans, which is mostly in the Middle East, and it probably had to have come about after people learned to make things like hummus and foul moudammas, because I've had some fresh lava beans, and I really cannot imagine anybody eating the damn things raw.
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#12  Postby Calilasseia » Nov 03, 2014 10:44 pm

Right, time to step in here.

First of all, there exists a number of known physical and chemical pathways leading to the generation of mutations. But it's precisely because such a large number of possible pathways exist, that it's extremely difficult to know which of the possibilities is going to be active in any one instance. This is partly due to the sheer volume of data to wade through, before we start thinking about the difficulties of collecting any of that data. For example, there are approximately 7 billion human beings on the planet. Each of these human beings is comprised of a large number of cells, it's safe to take 1010 cells as a ballpark figure. Let's concentrate for a moment on germ cells, namely, the cells that are responsible for producing gametes, i.e., sperm and egg cells. In the case of sperm, the average human male produces 100 million sperm prior to each instance of sexual intercourse, so that's 100 million cell replications per male human being per instance of sex. Multiply this by 3.5 billion male human beings, and factor in here that the typical male experiences something like 3,000 ejaculations in a lifetime, and we have, just for our species alone, the following number of cell replications just to produce sperm:

(3.5 × 109) × 108 × 3,000 = 1,050,000,000,000,000,000,000 cell replications

This is around 1021 cell replications, just to produce human sperm in one generation. So the magnitude of the data to be gathered, if one is going to cover the entire biosphere, very quickly becomes apparent. Every second on this planet, something like the same number of cell replications is taking place throughout the biosphere, and whilst performing the detailed breakdown into such processes as reproductive mitosis for single celled organisms, versus reproductive meiosis for multicellular eukaryotes, would itself be a pretty tedious exercise for the dedicated masochist, we can safely regard something like 0.1% of those cell divisions as being directly reproductive. Which still leaves us with 1018 reproductive cell divisions per second taking place on the planet.

Now, because the numbers involved are of this order of magnitude, there's no way that scientists are going to gather detailed molecular biological data on every one of those cell divisions. They are generally restricted to watching what happens on a very tiny subset of those cells in the laboratory. But, those observed events are pretty typical of what's happening within cells outside the laboratory too.

Now comes the fun part. The chemistry of DNA replication that is taking place within those cells, is not taking place in isolation from the activity of other chemicals in the call. Although in the case of eukaryotic cells, the cell nucleus acts as a reasonably effective container isolating that DNA replication from the most dangerous of the other chemicals in the cell, it isn't a perfect barrier by any means, and some of the chemical compounds required for the life processes of the cell can themselves interfere with replication if they turn up alongside a DNA strand being replicated at the wrong moment. We know that this can happen, because this has been observed in the laboratory, but what we don't know, is which of the possible interfering reactions is taking place in any given instance outside the laboratory.

In short, that's what "random" means in the context of evolutionary biology. Numerous possibilities potentially affecting a vast number of replications, and no way of accessing the data directly as it happens. But because we can observe what happens in small but representative samples in the laboratory, what we can do, is assign probability values to different classes of mutation, and construct probability distributions which can then be applied to a statistical random variable, used to model the behaviour of the wider system. When we do this, it works. it reproduces data sets that match the data sets arrived at a posteriori via observations of wild populations.

Needless to say, a certain amount of fidelity is required for successful DNA replication. A replication process too prone to errors, will pretty quickly grind to a halt. Typically, one error is observed in DNA replication per 109 nucleotide copying actions, though in some systems, the mutation rate is considerably lower (germ cells tend to have additional mechanisms to correct such errors), and some systems (the HIV virus being a classic example) have much higher mutation rates. Feed this into the above statistics for cell replications, and you eventually wind up alighting upon the fact that, in humans, for example, each new human being that is born, acquires something like 100 mutations from the germ cells of its parents. This isn't a problem, because the human genome has wide expanses of non-coding DNA, and usually, mutations affecting these stretches don't have major knock on effects. Additionally, even if a mutation does hit a coding region, it's only going to be a problem if it hits an exon - if it hits an intron, which is spliced out post-translation, then again, it's not going to exert much influence.

Now we turn our attention to what those mutations actually do. The majority of them aren't actually particularly significant in the short term. A good many of them don't actually do anything of note - examples being so-called "synonymous" mutations, that have the effect of producing a new codon in the stretch of DNA, that codes for the same amino acid as the codon it replaced. Even a non-synonymous mutation, which results in a different amino acid being coded for, may not have a significant effect, and as evidence for this, I cite the existence of many hundreds, if not thousands, of different variations on the insulin molecule across the vertebrates. All of these variations on the insulin theme work, and indeed, it's the reason humans were able to use bovine insulin from cows to keep diabetics alive, until the advent of a much more elegant biotehnology solution, involving inserting human insulin genes into bacteria, and then culturing the bacteria en masse to produce human insulin in quantity.

I chose insulin as an example deliberately, because, as you're probably already aware, insulin is a pretty critical molecule for us human beings, and for that matter, is critical for the rest of the vertebrate clades as well. If an organism doesn't produce a working insulin molecule, it's headed for an early death. Consequently, any mutation that destroys the functionality of the insulin protein, is going to be an evolutionary dead end, quite literally, in a short space of time. But, the fact that many different variations of insulin exist, all of which work, teaches us an important lesson, namely, exact codon sequence is not of primary importance. Some parts of that sequence may be critical, but the entire sequence as a whole isn't. All that matters, ultimately, is whether or not any variation that arises still works. If that variation does work, organisms inheriting it will continue to operate as normal, live and reproduce, and pass on that variation. Variations that don't work will come crashing to a halt when the organisms inheriting them die.

Which brings us to another important lesson. Some mutations will be instantly lethal to those organisms inheriting them, and won't go any further. After all, dead organisms can't reproduce, though if you listen to some of the more fatuous creationist assertions on the subject, you end up concluding that they think dead organisms can pass on lethal mutations. But I digress. On the other hand, some mutations aren't lethal, but act as a handicap to reproductive fitness. Some of these may be passed on to a future generation, if the handicap doesn't stop the inheritors thereof from mating and reproducing altogether, but the bigger the handicap, the more likely those mutations are to disappear from the gene pool after a few generations. However, provided that handicap doesn't take the organism below the minimum level of fitness required to be reproductively competent, that mutation stands a chance of being passed on.

Of course, any mutation emerging that increases reproductive competence, is instantly going to be favoured. If you end up inheriting a trait that makes you either more fecund, or more of a shag magnet to others of your species, then you're going to be the one passing genes on to the next generation on a large scale. Likewise, if you acquire the ability to make use of a new food source, one that for the time being remains exclusively yours, then you're going to boost the fitness of your population by passing that on to future generations, and because you're the first to acquire that mutation, you get to be the one reaping the benefits in terms of being well fed and healthy, and therefore making yourself more of a shag magnet once again.

In short, what decides if a mutation is going to enjoy some persistence in your species, is [1] whether or not it works, and [2] whether or not it works better than before. The moment you obtain even a slight advantage, that advantage is there to be built upon. Which basically, is how evolution works:

[1] Generate lots of variations;
[2] Discard the failures;
[3] Build upon the successes.

There doesn't need to be any "intelligence" directing all of this, let alone any magic entities. Indeed, human beings have pressed this basic algorithm into service to "design" via an evolutionary process, entities outside the biosphere. I have a nice paper on the application of this algorithm to the "design" of a spacecraft communications antenna, which was eventually flown on a real spacecraft, tested, and found to work.

Have fun reading the above. :)
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#13  Postby hackenslash » Nov 03, 2014 10:47 pm

epepke wrote:I've had some fresh lava beans, and I really cannot imagine anybody eating the damn things raw.


Indeed, except with the liver of a census-taker and a nice chianti...
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#14  Postby gib » Nov 03, 2014 11:13 pm

Spearthrower wrote:To answer this obliquely, if tall vegetation became sparse, but giraffes could still bend down and eat, they would persist as a species. However, the energy and biological resources of maintaining that long neck with no real survival benefit, would instead represent a cost. Therefore the direction of 'beneficial' now would be to make savings on the length of the neck. This would, of course, take a huge number of generations - it would even necessarily ultimately result in changes to sexual selection as males won't be able to do their necking anymore. If, however, the giraffe genome could not muster this change, it's always got the right to go extinct! :grin:


short fat giraffe: guys we really need to talk about a new way of fighting, i'm thinking ankle-biting contest

WHHOOOOMMPP!

short fat giraffe: this is exactly the sort of thing i was

WHHOOOOMMPP!
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#15  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 04, 2014 1:08 am

gib wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:To answer this obliquely, if tall vegetation became sparse, but giraffes could still bend down and eat, they would persist as a species. However, the energy and biological resources of maintaining that long neck with no real survival benefit, would instead represent a cost. Therefore the direction of 'beneficial' now would be to make savings on the length of the neck. This would, of course, take a huge number of generations - it would even necessarily ultimately result in changes to sexual selection as males won't be able to do their necking anymore. If, however, the giraffe genome could not muster this change, it's always got the right to go extinct! :grin:


short fat giraffe: guys we really need to talk about a new way of fighting, i'm thinking ankle-biting contest

WHHOOOOMMPP!

short fat giraffe: this is exactly the sort of thing i was

WHHOOOOMMPP!



:lol:

Even though Gib doesn't post often, it's always worth the wait! :)
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#16  Postby trogs » Nov 04, 2014 1:33 am

gib wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:To answer this obliquely, if tall vegetation became sparse, but giraffes could still bend down and eat, they would persist as a species. However, the energy and biological resources of maintaining that long neck with no real survival benefit, would instead represent a cost. Therefore the direction of 'beneficial' now would be to make savings on the length of the neck. This would, of course, take a huge number of generations - it would even necessarily ultimately result in changes to sexual selection as males won't be able to do their necking anymore. If, however, the giraffe genome could not muster this change, it's always got the right to go extinct! :grin:


short fat giraffe: guys we really need to talk about a new way of fighting, i'm thinking ankle-biting contest

WHHOOOOMMPP!

short fat giraffe: this is exactly the sort of thing i was

WHHOOOOMMPP!

:mrgreen:

Of course, then you'd have massive selection for female giraffes who are slutty enough to sneak off with the little fat guy while the longnecks fight. Whichever female perverts figure that one out first win the gene pool, and you have a new, golden race of little chubby hippie perverts.

Also, great posts above.
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#17  Postby The_Piper » Nov 04, 2014 1:36 am

The poor short and fat giraffe-chucks. :tongue:
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#18  Postby MeCagoEnCristo » Nov 04, 2014 12:49 pm

.
Thank you again for all your replies!
I've read the first few ones very carefully (it's not an easy topic). I'll get to the rest of them ASAP.

I'm in the middle of writing this jingle, and the director doesn't seem to know what he wants (he keeps asking for changes and can't make up his mind). I I'll have to answer to you all slower than I wish... little by little, as time allows, in the order the replies were written. This guy is driving me crazy!!! :roll:


kennyc wrote:
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:....
BUT…

Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations? Aren’t random mutations, in this context, simply a way to say we just don’t have enough data about the whole process? Aren’t these mutations the result of DNA and gene mistakes when they go through the “copying” process?
.....


No. We know pretty much exactly what causes mutations. The environment then allows those beneficial mutations to survive and propagate.

Ok. I understand the second part. But what exactly causes the mutations? Is it only "errors" during the gene duplication process? Or how about overexposing one's self to a radioactive material, or excessive sunlight, or dangerous chemicals, for instance?

Shrunk wrote:
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:Is there a mechanism where future gene mutations respond to the environment directly? Isn’t that what bacteria do, to adapt to the new environment and become immune to newly developed vaccines or anti-bacterial drugs? They seem to mutate the moment something harmful gets in their environment...


They may seem to, but they don't. The much faster reproduction cycle of bacteria, compared to bigger organisms like giraffes and polar bears, is what give that appearance. Bacteria are reproducing so rapidly that novel mutations are arising in a given population all the time. And if a course of antibiotics wipes out all the bacteria except the lucky few who have inherited a resistance to the medication, then the survivors will soon profliferate and take over the niche that was once occupied by their non-resistant relatives. That could happen in a matter of hours. Whereas it would take many years for a benficial mutation to fix itself in a bear population.

Wow. Ok. That was quite useful.
I didn't know bacteria could reproduce that fast!

So, if I understood you correctly, new mutations are constantly taking place in a population of bacteria. Since they reproduce so ridiculously quickly, there will always be lots of new bacteria with many newly acquired characteristics due to the mutations. By probability alone, it's likely that one or more of those mutations just happens to render some of the bacteria immune to the newly created vaccine. And THOSE are they ones that will survive and pass on their strengthened characteristics to the new generations, thus, in a very little time, most of the new ones will be immune.

So they didn't "react" to the vaccine. It's just that some of them were ready for it.

Did I get that right?

But I'm still not clear on what exactly causes those random mutations in the bacterial population.

I have a followup question, if that's Ok.
Do all bacteria species reproduce at roughly the same rate, or does it vary according to the species (Is that the correct term to use?)?
Could you please give me an estimate of the rate of reproduction of any bacteria of your choice? For instance, if you have a colony of 100 individuals of x species, how many will there be after 24 hours?

epepke wrote:Yours is a common phase in going from not understanding to understanding evolution, but there are too many to deal with, so I'll focus on one.

MeCagoEnCristo wrote:How is it decided which genes to mutate in order to survive? It seems to be much more obvious and fast in this case.


It isn't. I think you are going about this backward. You're thinking that there's a pressure, and then there's a mutation to respond to it.

Exactly. I see now I had it backwards... That's exactly what had been confusing me!

epepke wrote:That's a human categorization. Because we're so interested in successful mutations, we tend to think they are special, causing error.

Instead, try going about it this way: all genes mutate all the time. Things don't really go with this wild abandon, but this is much closer to the truth. Only you don't notice it because it doesn't make any difference.


Got it.
That totally supports what Shrunk wrote above.

epepke wrote:Take your polar bear example. It wasn't that bears were never white until they went up there. Every once in a while, there was probably a bear with a bit of white or a lot of white or even an albino who was all white.


Aha! I see. That's key. That is definitely clearing up my misunderstanding!

epepke wrote: But this was over millions of years, and Facebook hadn't been invented yet, so there aren't a lot of pictures. Their unusual characteristics either got diluted back into the gene pool or died out, because maybe white bears weren't considered very sexy.

So then it starts to snow a bit. The mutation rate doesn't change, at least not by much, but a different thing happens to the occasional white bear that gets born. They do a lot better than their peers, and their peers die off, again over a very long time, and bears with that trait dominate the population. Then what was neutral or even a disadvantage becomes an advantage.


Nice, simple and elegant!

So it's pretty much what happens with bacteria, except for a much slower reproduction rate. Some of those rare white bears were already "prepared" for the snow (due to a previous random mutation), and that not-particularly beneficial trait then became beneficial when it suddenly started snowing. In this case we're talking thousands, if not millions, of years, where as with bacteria we're talking hours.
But lots of random mutations are happening all the time. Some might be useful (now or in the future), some may be neutral and some could be terrible. Am I getting it right?

epepke wrote:This is probably the only aspect in which Gould's idea of punctuated equilibrium, which I described elsewhere as mostly a tempest in a teapot, is valid. Diversity of the genome does increase the most when there isn't much natural selection. It builds up a reserve of diversity, and when things get tough, a lot of this gets winnowed out.

I'll have to research the concept of "punctuated equilibrium".
I just had a quick look at the Wiki article, and it seems to talk about relatively sudden quick changes in speciation rather than the gradual and slow process I'm more familiar with.
I also see Dawkins doesn't care much for this concept in the criticism section. You also mentioned above that this is probably the only aspect in which this idea is valid. So, should I learn about this now, or should I focus more on main stream ToE for the time being? Has punctuated equilibrium been refuted?

epepke wrote:Just look what's happened in a few short decades with humans. Peanut allergies, for instance, were very rare when I was growing up, but now they are so common that people have to be very careful with peanuts. Assuming that this actually is an increase in allergies and not just more reporting, it seems to be a change. Who knows? Maybe some of the proteins involved in peanut allergies will turn out to be just the thing to protect against some microorganism or poison in the future, and everyone without a peanut allergy will die. Or maybe not. But that's the sort of thing that happens.

It's messy, but in the long term it works great. Unless, of course, if you're amongst the population that dies off, and chances are, you will be. Sucks to be you, or me, I guess.

That's awesome. Thank you for providing that thought-provoking example.
I definitely don't have peanut allergy (I have them for breakfast almost every day), so I hope your hypothetical scenario will not happen :smile:

Briton wrote:
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:
Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations?


Don't forget natural variation. Over time that can lead to large anatomical differences. You don't need a mutation that results in some animals having freakishly long necks, for example, compared to other members of their species. It's populations that evolve, not individuals. At least that's how I understand it.

Natural variation? That's another concept I'm not familiar with... I'll look it up, but in the mean time, can you tell me what it is in a nutshell? How are those "large anatomical differences" obtained? Via mutations, or via a different mechanism?
I understand that acquiring longer necks takes a very long time, and very gradually. I also understand that it's populations, and not individuals, who evolve. But I'll definitely look up "natural variation".


I'll answer the rest of your replies the moment I have some time to breathe.

Back to jingle writing to beat my deadline... and the Muses haven't stopped by...
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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#19  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 04, 2014 1:28 pm

MeCagoEnCristo wrote:.
Ok. I understand the second part. But what exactly causes the mutations? Is it only "errors" during the gene duplication process? Or how about overexposing one's self to a radioactive material, or excessive sunlight, or dangerous chemicals, for instance?


There are several categories of mutation: 1) errors in replication 2) induced errors (i.e. caused by radiation, cosmic particle bombardment, or even by human geneticists) 3) errors in DNA repair 4) error-prone replication by-pass.

I already explained the first two in the above post, but I can't offer any insight into the latter two beyond that which I can read on Wikipedia - I understand sufficiently well for me to get the idea, but I don't have the capacity to explain it to others! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_repair ... _synthesis

In short, there are numerous ways in which errors creep into the DNA - in fact, all individual organisms undergo significant quantities of mutations, although it's not always heritable.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote:.
I didn't know bacteria could reproduce that fast!

So, if I understood you correctly, new mutations are constantly taking place in a population of bacteria. Since they reproduce so ridiculously quickly, there will always be lots of new bacteria with many newly acquired characteristics due to the mutations. By probability alone, it's likely that one or more of those mutations just happens to render some of the bacteria immune to the newly created vaccine. And THOSE are they ones that will survive and pass on their strengthened characteristics to the new generations, thus, in a very little time, most of the new ones will be immune.

So they didn't "react" to the vaccine. It's just that some of them were ready for it.

Did I get that right?


In effect yes, with the one addendum that all organisms are constantly undergoing genetic mutations, it's just much more observable (an observer bias) in organisms with vastly faster reproduction times than ours.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote:.I have a followup question, if that's Ok.
Do all bacteria species reproduce at roughly the same rate, or does it vary according to the species (Is that the correct term to use?)?
Could you please give me an estimate of the rate of reproduction of any bacteria of your choice? For instance, if you have a colony of 100 individuals of x species, how many will there be after 24 hours?


Bacteria represent an entire domain of life - that is: Life > Domain > Kingdom > Phylum > Class > Order > Family > Genus > Species.

Considering all mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, insects, plants and fungi; all the species representing them, are all part of the same Domain, but the word 'bacteria' represents another Domain entirely, you can begin to imagine the diversity which comprises the Domain 'eubacteria'! :)

Any attempts to provide an estimate of their rate of reproduction as a whole is doomed to being pointless! Some bacteria reproduce incredibly fast, some quite slowly. A fast reproducing bacterial population can double in size every 10 minutes http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC279347/

Think of the potential diversity that represents.


MeCagoEnCristo wrote:So it's pretty much what happens with bacteria, except for a much slower reproduction rate. Some of those rare white bears were already prepared for the snow (due to a previous random mutation), and that not-particularly beneficial trait then became beneficial when it suddenly started snowing. In this case we're talking hundreds, if not thousands, of years, where as with bacteria we're talking hours, yes?


In essence, yes. Although the very moment that a snowy landscape became the more significant element of their environment, the white haired variant was implicitly favoured by selection - the hundreds and thousands of generations represents how long that variation would have taken to become ubiquitously (or nearly so) represented in the population.



MeCagoEnCristo wrote:
I'll have to research the concept of "punctuated equilibrium".
I just had a quick look at the Wiki article, and it seems to favour sudden quick changes in speciation rather than the gradual and slow process I'm more familiar with.
I also see Dawkins doesn't care much for this concept in the criticism section. You also mentioned above that this is probably the only aspect in which this idea is valid. So, should I learn about this, or should I focus more on main stream ToE for the time being?


It's not that punctuated equilibria is wrong, it's the relevant importance of it that's the problem. There's nothing actually distinguishing it from gradual accumulation other than by the speed at which it happens. As there is no set speed for traits to arise, all that punctuated equilibria represents is 'extremely fast' in comparison to geological time. This, of course, necessitates 'slow' and 'average' and every gradient in between. Populations are always evolving - this is provably the case using only statistics: the variation in a population is continuously being reshuffled, therefore the sum variation in a population is always in a state of flux. Effectively, you can just ignore PE for now as it doesn't really pertain much to your other questions.



MeCagoEnCristo wrote:
Briton wrote:
Don't forget natural variation. Over time that can lead to large anatomical differences. You don't need a mutation that results in some animals having freakishly long necks, for example, compared to other members of their species. It's populations that evolve, not individuals. At least that's how I understand it.


Natural variation? That's another concept I'm not familiar with... I'll look it up, but in the mean time, can you tell me what it is in a nutshell? How are those "large anatomical differences" obtained? Via mutations, or via a different mechanism?
I understand that acquiring longer necks takes a very long time, and very gradually. I also understand that it's populations, and not individuals, who evolve. But I'll definitely look up "natural variation".


Natural variation is all around you. Why do no two people possess exactly the same appearance? Natural variation. Why are some people short, and some people tall? Natural variation. That variation has little to no selection advantage so it is neither favoured nor destroyed by natural selection: natural selection doesn't even see it.

So the term 'natural variation' means just that: the visible (and non-visible) differences between individuals of a population.



MeCagoEnCristo wrote:I'll answer the rest of your replies the moment I have some time to breathe.

Back to jingle writing to beat my deadline... and the Muses haven't stopped by...


Good luck with that! I've just had a hell day for my project which is going to require going up several gears to get things in order ready to be presented next month! :sigh:
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

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Re: This issue is preventing me from understanding ToE better...

#20  Postby fluttermoth » Nov 04, 2014 1:36 pm

MeCagoEnCristo wrote:.

Natural variation? That's another concept I'm not familiar with... I'll look it up, but in the mean time, can you tell me what it is in a nutshell? How are those "large anatomical differences" obtained? Via mutations, or via a different mechanism?
I understand that acquiring longer necks takes a very long time, and very gradually. I also understand that it's populations, and not individuals, who evolve. But I'll definitely look up "natural variation".


I'm not an expert, just a keen amateur, but I can answer this one for you :)

Natural variation just means that not all animals are identical. To stick with giraffes, for example, some will be born with very slightly longer necks than others. Or bears might vary in the shade of their coat colours; some being slightly darker and some being slightly paler.

Natural selection can then work on those variations. The giraffes with slightly longer necks do better and raise a few more babies, that also have a longer neck. Over time, if the longer neck continues to be of benefit to the species, the neck gradually gets longer and long (although not forever; there will always be a point where the 'cost' outweighs the benefit; long necks are more delicate for example, so they can't get longer and longer indefinitely!).

You don't really see large anatomical differences happening suddenly. A short necked 'proto giraffe' wouldn't have a baby with the neck of a modern giraffe. It may happen in some cases; for instance coat colour can change with a single mutation without affecting the body of the animal (which is why we have domestic animals with such a huge range of coat colours), so the evolution of the polar bear from brown to white, could have evolved much more quickly than the neck of the giraffe.

Hope that helps :)
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