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MeCagoEnCristo wrote:....
BUT…
Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations? Aren’t random mutations, in this context, simply a way to say we just don’t have enough data about the whole process? Aren’t these mutations the result of DNA and gene mistakes when they go through the “copying” process?
.....
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:Is there a mechanism where future gene mutations respond to the environment directly? Isn’t that what bacteria do, to adapt to the new environment and become immune to newly developed vaccines or anti-bacterial drugs? They seem to mutate the moment something harmful gets in their environment...
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:How is it decided which genes to mutate in order to survive? It seems to be much more obvious and fast in this case.
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:Hello, everyone.
Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations?
Epepke wrote:Just look what's happened in a few short decades with humans. Peanut allergies, for instance, were very rare when I was growing up, but now they are so common that people have to be very careful with peanuts. Assuming that this actually is an increase in allergies and not just more reporting, it seems to be a change. Who knows? Maybe some of the proteins involved in peanut allergies will turn out to be just the thing to protect against some microorganism or poison in the future, and everyone without a peanut allergy will die. Or maybe not. But that's the sort of thing that happens.
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:
For instance:
Basically, I’m still not sure how much, if at all, the environment directly causes or contributes to species’ gene mutations.
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Most times I’m confident that beneficial mutations help members of a species survive to at least get to a reproductive age, so they can pass on their genes to their offspring. But then this nagging voice tells me: “Really?” “So most of those mutations are conveniently the ones that help them to adapt and survive better?" Then I think, “Well, the bad mutations don’t help them, so they are more likely to die out and those won’t be passed on. Only the beneficial ones do. That’s why it looks so convenient".
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: BUT…
Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations? Aren’t random mutations, in this context, simply a way to say we just don’t have enough data about the whole process? Aren’t these mutations the result of DNA and gene mistakes when they go through the “copying” process?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: It’s almost as if necessity somehow “told” the genes that mutating for long necks would be helpful, but I’m not aware of such a mechanism.
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Sorry about putting it in such a clumsy way, but it almost sounds like it. Especially because I still don’t understand what is it that makes the genes keep going on towards that beneficial direction once they got it initially.
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: For example, can a beneficial tendency be randomly inverted and canceled out or even reverted?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: What prevents a giraffe’s genes from suddenly changing direction and now start shrinking their necks? I suppose this is where natural selection really kicks in, but if this tendency reverted, could it cause this species’ eventual extinction? What would prevent such a thing?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: How many genes are involved in this neck-elongation process? How many mutations can a primitive giraffe (with no long neck) have before getting the useful one that starts elongating their necks? Why not one that elongates their feet instead?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Same with a polar bear. How many useless mutations did they have before getting the one that makes them better adapted for cold weather (i.e., thick fur)? Why didn’t they develop a different mutation that still helped them instead?
But why didn’t other species of bears get that same mutation (i.e., Mexican grizzly bear)? Was it the environment? If so, how does this work? I don’t even know if they are really different species (i.e., whether they can interbreed to produce viable offspring).
What prevented these bears that lived in Mexico from NOT getting a gene for thick fur like their northern counterparts?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Is there a mechanism where future gene mutations respond to the environment directly? Isn’t that what bacteria do, to adapt to the new environment and become immune to newly developed vaccines or anti-bacterial drugs? They seem to mutate the moment something harmful gets in their environment...
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: How is it decided which genes to mutate in order to survive? It seems to be much more obvious and fast in this case.
It seems like there’s more than just "plain" natural selection.
Dawkins wrote:As Sydney Brenner has remarked, natural selection could not be expected to have favoured some useless mutation in the Cambrian simply because 'it might come in handy in the Cretaceous'
MeCagoEnCristo wrote: I hope I’m making at least some sense… I’m still hoping to hear those “I-got-it ding ding” bells, but the silence is still deafening…
See? It would be so much easier to just say “godidit”
Thank you for any insight,
Fernando
Spearthrower wrote:MeCagoEnCristo wrote:
For instance:
Basically, I’m still not sure how much, if at all, the environment directly causes or contributes to species’ gene mutations.
There are several ingredients here. First, and most importantly is that there is natural variation in genes in a population - bear in mind that many of those genes and the variants thereof have the opportunity to undergo mutation - the pool of possibility is itself immense.
There are also plenty of environmental factors in mutations - for example, radioactivity and possibly extra-earthly particles bombarding DNA - this kind of mutation would be considered 'induced mutation'. However, another major form of mutation is in replication error, and if you think about how an organism progresses from a single cell onwards throughout embryological development, you can see how errors can creep in frequently. How many of any of these types of mutation can potentially be inheritable is another question, but in essence mutation is random and mostly unpredictable, but the ways in which mutation can occur are limited, as are the ways in which a gene can mutate: the most obvious ones being substitution, insertion, deletion, and frame-shift which, in effect, is where an insertion or deletion causes the gene's expression to be incorrectly parsed.
All of this leads to a natural pool of variation which an organism can potentially exploit under certain environmental conditions.MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Most times I’m confident that beneficial mutations help members of a species survive to at least get to a reproductive age, so they can pass on their genes to their offspring. But then this nagging voice tells me: “Really?” “So most of those mutations are conveniently the ones that help them to adapt and survive better?" Then I think, “Well, the bad mutations don’t help them, so they are more likely to die out and those won’t be passed on. Only the beneficial ones do. That’s why it looks so convenient".
I think the problem there, as you said, the word 'conveniently' - there's no convenience in this; it's expressly only the beneficial mutations that can be said to be 'adaptive' or offer preferential survival. However...
This is quite a big topic, and I am far from being the best versed to explain it, but it's important to note that a mutation can hold one of 3 values: beneficial, neutral, deleterious, and that all of these measurements specifically relate to their host organism's chance of surviving and reproducing within a specific environment.
While it's clear that beneficial mutations provide a statistically better chance of survival or reproductive benefit to the organism (that's how we define them as being 'beneficial'), being beneficial is not actually a requirement for mutations to arise, persist and become stable in a population. Neutral mutations, which represent neither survival benefit nor survival deficit are simply overlooked by selection: they neither favour, nor disfavour an organism's chances. Neutral mutations account for a significant percentage of all mutations and thereby form a continuous evolution of statistical reshuffling in the population's pool. In fact, you can prove evolution in that case mathematically with only reference to statistics.MeCagoEnCristo wrote: BUT…
Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations? Aren’t random mutations, in this context, simply a way to say we just don’t have enough data about the whole process? Aren’t these mutations the result of DNA and gene mistakes when they go through the “copying” process?
Actually, the explanation would be that there was already natural variation in a population, and that natural variation was effectively the sum of neutral and some beneficial mutations which had just so happened to produce some giraffes with longer necks than others, even though there was no selective pressure there.
If you think about it, expecting beneficial mutations to pop up just when they're needed would be problematic. To follow the somewhat oversimplified giraffe analogy: If no slightly longer necked giraffes existed when the foliage was no longer within reach, then it would require either a mechanism like Lamarckism, where the giraffes that stretched and caused muscle adaptations would pass on that in the form of a slightly longer necked baby, or would require some form of Providence - a directed mutation. Actually, what would happen in the real world is that this homogenously necked species would go extinct.MeCagoEnCristo wrote: It’s almost as if necessity somehow “told” the genes that mutating for long necks would be helpful, but I’m not aware of such a mechanism.
That's because no such mechanism has been alighted on. Initially, it was indeed proposed, but the current formulation of evolution is sufficiently able to account for this apparent Providence due to naturally arising variation in a population, and of course the slightly tragic fact that the majority of species have gone extinct.MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Sorry about putting it in such a clumsy way, but it almost sounds like it. Especially because I still don’t understand what is it that makes the genes keep going on towards that beneficial direction once they got it initially.
Actually, that represents a topic I am totally unable to explain in any sufficient detail - but point mutations are potentially more likely to thereby undergo further mutation. Some genes are just more susceptible to variation, or provide more variance in expression.MeCagoEnCristo wrote: For example, can a beneficial tendency be randomly inverted and canceled out or even reverted?
Absolutely, because you have to remember there's a 'direction' in that term 'beneficial' - it is beneficial towards that specific environment. If the environment changes drastically over short periods of time, then previously beneficial mutations could now potentially be considered deleterious. For example, think of the Blind Cave Tetra - a variation of the Mexican Tetra. Members of this species found themselves washed into caves where light was absent. Their previous multi-generational 'direction' towards a lit environment suddenly became a significant cost - those big eyes need powering. This offers a very speedy scenario in which 'deleterious' mutations with respect to photo sensitivity actually represented a benefit to the individual which didn't pay the cost and could potentially invest that energy doing something more profitable like shagging! It's important to remember that the terms harmful, beneficial etc are relevant to something: they are not absolute.MeCagoEnCristo wrote: What prevents a giraffe’s genes from suddenly changing direction and now start shrinking their necks? I suppose this is where natural selection really kicks in, but if this tendency reverted, could it cause this species’ eventual extinction? What would prevent such a thing?
To answer this obliquely, if tall vegetation became sparse, but giraffes could still bend down and eat, they would persist as a species. However, the energy and biological resources of maintaining that long neck with no real survival benefit, would instead represent a cost. Therefore the direction of 'beneficial' now would be to make savings on the length of the neck. This would, of course, take a huge number of generations - it would even necessarily ultimately result in changes to sexual selection as males won't be able to do their necking anymore. If, however, the giraffe genome could not muster this change, it's always got the right to go extinct!MeCagoEnCristo wrote: How many genes are involved in this neck-elongation process? How many mutations can a primitive giraffe (with no long neck) have before getting the useful one that starts elongating their necks? Why not one that elongates their feet instead?
There's really no specific reasons as to why one thing happened when another could have - it just did: it's called contingency - once a strategy has been adopted it provides a 'directional' benefit towards improving on that strategy - it wouldn't be beneficial to run multiple contradictory strategies at the same time as it would cost more and they'd make each other redundant - natural selection rewards specialization.
But there's another point here: There is a limited potential morphological space any organism can evolve into gradually in accordance with natural physical laws! Widely different solutions can be happened upon that solve the same physical problems. You can see this throughout nature with similar behaviors. A mole burrows using specially adapted front claws, while a worm burrows via the flexibility of its body, strength of its muscle, and filaments on its lower section effectively bulling its way through the soil. Both represent a 'solution' to burrowing through soil, but they represent two indepently contingent paths that can arrive at soil burrowing capability given the laws of physics.MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Same with a polar bear. How many useless mutations did they have before getting the one that makes them better adapted for cold weather (i.e., thick fur)? Why didn’t they develop a different mutation that still helped them instead?
But why didn’t other species of bears get that same mutation (i.e., Mexican grizzly bear)? Was it the environment? If so, how does this work? I don’t even know if they are really different species (i.e., whether they can interbreed to produce viable offspring).
What prevented these bears that lived in Mexico from NOT getting a gene for thick fur like their northern counterparts?
Nothing prevented them from doing so, but running a heavier coat of fur is more expensive than running a shorter length of fur coat. If there's no environmental pay-off, what would induce natural selection to offer preferential survival for long-coated ones? The other bears could be spending those resources on being better adapted to eating Mexicans!
You need another concept here: the notion of a trade-off. Bodies cost resources. If your body and my body can do the same thing, but my body costs substantially more to achieve that, then over generations, the net statistical selection will favour your body form. My body form and variations in between us might still exist in the population, but the mean body of the population will shift to become more like yours. This is obviously a crude example, but the point being that there is not just a reward to possessing a trait, but a cost too.MeCagoEnCristo wrote: Is there a mechanism where future gene mutations respond to the environment directly? Isn’t that what bacteria do, to adapt to the new environment and become immune to newly developed vaccines or anti-bacterial drugs? They seem to mutate the moment something harmful gets in their environment...
The point with bacteria is that they have very fast generational cycles, so from our viewing, they evolve quickly. There is no directionality towards a future generations survivability - there is only this one's survivability. The ones which possess the currently beneficial traits from the pool of variation will be statistically more likely to leave behind offspring with that trait, meaning the population pool shifts to becoming more represented by organisms that are slightly better at surviving that environment. Reiterate by generation.MeCagoEnCristo wrote: How is it decided which genes to mutate in order to survive? It seems to be much more obvious and fast in this case.
It seems like there’s more than just "plain" natural selection.
No decision is made - in fact, expressly not so.Dawkins wrote:As Sydney Brenner has remarked, natural selection could not be expected to have favoured some useless mutation in the Cambrian simply because 'it might come in handy in the Cretaceous'
Organisms evolve by contingency because they are always evolving to the current environment, not to some form of predicted one. And when the environment shifts suddenly, or they find themselves in a blind alley of evolution, then they can only evolve or go extinct. The sorting process has eradicated 99% of all species on the earth, the others represent a chain of unbroken descent - the lucky few who did manage to circumnavigate those changing environments. You need to keep all those mountains of deceased forms in mind when considering the apparent Providence of an evolutionary scenario!MeCagoEnCristo wrote: I hope I’m making at least some sense… I’m still hoping to hear those “I-got-it ding ding” bells, but the silence is still deafening…
See? It would be so much easier to just say “godidit”
Thank you for any insight,
Fernando
Cheers Fernando, hope I helped!
hackenslash wrote:Epepke wrote:Just look what's happened in a few short decades with humans. Peanut allergies, for instance, were very rare when I was growing up, but now they are so common that people have to be very careful with peanuts. Assuming that this actually is an increase in allergies and not just more reporting, it seems to be a change. Who knows? Maybe some of the proteins involved in peanut allergies will turn out to be just the thing to protect against some microorganism or poison in the future, and everyone without a peanut allergy will die. Or maybe not. But that's the sort of thing that happens.
In fact, there's a lovely example of this extant in the human population in the form of the sickle gene. In areas where the risk of infection from malaria is high, this gene actually provides an advantage as long as you don't actually have the disease (having the disease actually increases the risk of infection), in the form of providing increased resistance, so the gene proliferates. It also has an autosomal recessive pattern, meaning that if you have only one copy, it causes no other effect than said increased resistance. Where you have a copy from each of your parents, it can lead to sickle-cell anaemia, depending on the precise nature of what you inherit.
More here.
epepke wrote:I've had some fresh lava beans, and I really cannot imagine anybody eating the damn things raw.
Spearthrower wrote:To answer this obliquely, if tall vegetation became sparse, but giraffes could still bend down and eat, they would persist as a species. However, the energy and biological resources of maintaining that long neck with no real survival benefit, would instead represent a cost. Therefore the direction of 'beneficial' now would be to make savings on the length of the neck. This would, of course, take a huge number of generations - it would even necessarily ultimately result in changes to sexual selection as males won't be able to do their necking anymore. If, however, the giraffe genome could not muster this change, it's always got the right to go extinct!
gib wrote:Spearthrower wrote:To answer this obliquely, if tall vegetation became sparse, but giraffes could still bend down and eat, they would persist as a species. However, the energy and biological resources of maintaining that long neck with no real survival benefit, would instead represent a cost. Therefore the direction of 'beneficial' now would be to make savings on the length of the neck. This would, of course, take a huge number of generations - it would even necessarily ultimately result in changes to sexual selection as males won't be able to do their necking anymore. If, however, the giraffe genome could not muster this change, it's always got the right to go extinct!
short fat giraffe: guys we really need to talk about a new way of fighting, i'm thinking ankle-biting contest
WHHOOOOMMPP!
short fat giraffe: this is exactly the sort of thing i was
WHHOOOOMMPP!
gib wrote:Spearthrower wrote:To answer this obliquely, if tall vegetation became sparse, but giraffes could still bend down and eat, they would persist as a species. However, the energy and biological resources of maintaining that long neck with no real survival benefit, would instead represent a cost. Therefore the direction of 'beneficial' now would be to make savings on the length of the neck. This would, of course, take a huge number of generations - it would even necessarily ultimately result in changes to sexual selection as males won't be able to do their necking anymore. If, however, the giraffe genome could not muster this change, it's always got the right to go extinct!
short fat giraffe: guys we really need to talk about a new way of fighting, i'm thinking ankle-biting contest
WHHOOOOMMPP!
short fat giraffe: this is exactly the sort of thing i was
WHHOOOOMMPP!
kennyc wrote:MeCagoEnCristo wrote:....
BUT…
Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations? Aren’t random mutations, in this context, simply a way to say we just don’t have enough data about the whole process? Aren’t these mutations the result of DNA and gene mistakes when they go through the “copying” process?
.....
No. We know pretty much exactly what causes mutations. The environment then allows those beneficial mutations to survive and propagate.
Shrunk wrote:MeCagoEnCristo wrote:Is there a mechanism where future gene mutations respond to the environment directly? Isn’t that what bacteria do, to adapt to the new environment and become immune to newly developed vaccines or anti-bacterial drugs? They seem to mutate the moment something harmful gets in their environment...
They may seem to, but they don't. The much faster reproduction cycle of bacteria, compared to bigger organisms like giraffes and polar bears, is what give that appearance. Bacteria are reproducing so rapidly that novel mutations are arising in a given population all the time. And if a course of antibiotics wipes out all the bacteria except the lucky few who have inherited a resistance to the medication, then the survivors will soon profliferate and take over the niche that was once occupied by their non-resistant relatives. That could happen in a matter of hours. Whereas it would take many years for a benficial mutation to fix itself in a bear population.
epepke wrote:Yours is a common phase in going from not understanding to understanding evolution, but there are too many to deal with, so I'll focus on one.MeCagoEnCristo wrote:How is it decided which genes to mutate in order to survive? It seems to be much more obvious and fast in this case.
It isn't. I think you are going about this backward. You're thinking that there's a pressure, and then there's a mutation to respond to it.
epepke wrote:That's a human categorization. Because we're so interested in successful mutations, we tend to think they are special, causing error.
Instead, try going about it this way: all genes mutate all the time. Things don't really go with this wild abandon, but this is much closer to the truth. Only you don't notice it because it doesn't make any difference.
epepke wrote:Take your polar bear example. It wasn't that bears were never white until they went up there. Every once in a while, there was probably a bear with a bit of white or a lot of white or even an albino who was all white.
epepke wrote: But this was over millions of years, and Facebook hadn't been invented yet, so there aren't a lot of pictures. Their unusual characteristics either got diluted back into the gene pool or died out, because maybe white bears weren't considered very sexy.
So then it starts to snow a bit. The mutation rate doesn't change, at least not by much, but a different thing happens to the occasional white bear that gets born. They do a lot better than their peers, and their peers die off, again over a very long time, and bears with that trait dominate the population. Then what was neutral or even a disadvantage becomes an advantage.
epepke wrote:This is probably the only aspect in which Gould's idea of punctuated equilibrium, which I described elsewhere as mostly a tempest in a teapot, is valid. Diversity of the genome does increase the most when there isn't much natural selection. It builds up a reserve of diversity, and when things get tough, a lot of this gets winnowed out.
epepke wrote:Just look what's happened in a few short decades with humans. Peanut allergies, for instance, were very rare when I was growing up, but now they are so common that people have to be very careful with peanuts. Assuming that this actually is an increase in allergies and not just more reporting, it seems to be a change. Who knows? Maybe some of the proteins involved in peanut allergies will turn out to be just the thing to protect against some microorganism or poison in the future, and everyone without a peanut allergy will die. Or maybe not. But that's the sort of thing that happens.
It's messy, but in the long term it works great. Unless, of course, if you're amongst the population that dies off, and chances are, you will be. Sucks to be you, or me, I guess.
Briton wrote:MeCagoEnCristo wrote:
Let’s take a giraffe, for instance. Their long necks help them reach more tree leaves, especially the ones that are higher. So what caused the mutations responsible for these long necks? Random mutations?
Don't forget natural variation. Over time that can lead to large anatomical differences. You don't need a mutation that results in some animals having freakishly long necks, for example, compared to other members of their species. It's populations that evolve, not individuals. At least that's how I understand it.
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:.
Ok. I understand the second part. But what exactly causes the mutations? Is it only "errors" during the gene duplication process? Or how about overexposing one's self to a radioactive material, or excessive sunlight, or dangerous chemicals, for instance?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:.
I didn't know bacteria could reproduce that fast!
So, if I understood you correctly, new mutations are constantly taking place in a population of bacteria. Since they reproduce so ridiculously quickly, there will always be lots of new bacteria with many newly acquired characteristics due to the mutations. By probability alone, it's likely that one or more of those mutations just happens to render some of the bacteria immune to the newly created vaccine. And THOSE are they ones that will survive and pass on their strengthened characteristics to the new generations, thus, in a very little time, most of the new ones will be immune.
So they didn't "react" to the vaccine. It's just that some of them were ready for it.
Did I get that right?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:.I have a followup question, if that's Ok.
Do all bacteria species reproduce at roughly the same rate, or does it vary according to the species (Is that the correct term to use?)?
Could you please give me an estimate of the rate of reproduction of any bacteria of your choice? For instance, if you have a colony of 100 individuals of x species, how many will there be after 24 hours?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:So it's pretty much what happens with bacteria, except for a much slower reproduction rate. Some of those rare white bears were already prepared for the snow (due to a previous random mutation), and that not-particularly beneficial trait then became beneficial when it suddenly started snowing. In this case we're talking hundreds, if not thousands, of years, where as with bacteria we're talking hours, yes?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:
I'll have to research the concept of "punctuated equilibrium".
I just had a quick look at the Wiki article, and it seems to favour sudden quick changes in speciation rather than the gradual and slow process I'm more familiar with.
I also see Dawkins doesn't care much for this concept in the criticism section. You also mentioned above that this is probably the only aspect in which this idea is valid. So, should I learn about this, or should I focus more on main stream ToE for the time being?
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:Briton wrote:
Don't forget natural variation. Over time that can lead to large anatomical differences. You don't need a mutation that results in some animals having freakishly long necks, for example, compared to other members of their species. It's populations that evolve, not individuals. At least that's how I understand it.
Natural variation? That's another concept I'm not familiar with... I'll look it up, but in the mean time, can you tell me what it is in a nutshell? How are those "large anatomical differences" obtained? Via mutations, or via a different mechanism?
I understand that acquiring longer necks takes a very long time, and very gradually. I also understand that it's populations, and not individuals, who evolve. But I'll definitely look up "natural variation".
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:I'll answer the rest of your replies the moment I have some time to breathe.
Back to jingle writing to beat my deadline... and the Muses haven't stopped by...
MeCagoEnCristo wrote:.
Natural variation? That's another concept I'm not familiar with... I'll look it up, but in the mean time, can you tell me what it is in a nutshell? How are those "large anatomical differences" obtained? Via mutations, or via a different mechanism?
I understand that acquiring longer necks takes a very long time, and very gradually. I also understand that it's populations, and not individuals, who evolve. But I'll definitely look up "natural variation".
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