I recently read about a biology paper that argues that the vestigal hips of some whales are attachment points for muscles that guide the penis during copulation. Some creationists are claiming that that discovery proves that "vestigal" is a false notion because the supposed vestigal hips have a function. As a non-biologist, even I can think of several arguments against that. For example, whale hips no longer function as hips, but retain only a vestige of their original function, which included being points of attachment for penis muscles.

Similarly, the vestigal human appendix has been found to have, if I remember correctly, the minor function of being a reservoir of gut flora that, in cases where disease has depopulated the rest of the gut of its flora, replenishes it. And similarly, creationists have argued that this again shows that the appendix is functional, not vestigal. And again I can think of several arguments against that. For example, a fully functioning appendix would also be a gut flora reservoir, in addition to all the normal functions, so what survives today is only a vestige of what was.

I'd like to get comments from people who know what they're talking about as to why the creationist arguments are wrong.

AlanF

The only argument you need against the creationist claim is that they don't understand or wilfully misrepresent what 'vesigial' means by claiming it means "has lost all function".

Vestigiality refers to genetically determined structures or attributes that have apparently lost most or all of their ancestral function in a given species, but have been retained through evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigiality

These structures need only lose their previous function to be considered vetigial. The original function of whale hips was not so they can grip on to their ancestors. The original function of an apendix is to do with digesting grass, as it is still used in some of our closer relatives. It is no use pointing at them and saying that they are used for something else now, it was not their original function.

Nope, you've got it. The creationist argument is just to misrepresent what "vestigial" means by insisting that having some function means it's not vestigial, and that having no apparent function just means the function hasn't been discovered.

In actuality, vestigiality means loss of ancestral function, and it usually determined by comparison with homologous structures in taxonomically related species.

In the case of the vestigial whale bones (or the ape coccyx), which do function as anchors to muscles, creationists gloss over why those structures should look remarkably like underdeveloped leg bones ( or an underdeveloped primate tail ) rather than something specifically designed to anchor those muscles.

We certainly got the short end of the evolutionary stick, didn't we? Imagine a prehensile penis....

Yes. Vestigial means the organ has lost a significant portion of its original function, not necessarily all function, as most organs serve multiple functions or can evolve to serve new functions.

This is just more typical creationist tactic, that when the facts conflict with your world view, change the definitions to make it appear as though there is no conflict.

I like to point out the laryngeal nerve of a giraffe. It isn't vestigial, but it is vital for survival, and as the giraffe evolved longer and longer necks, the nerve had no way to become unlooped with a major artery of the heart so had to lengthen and become more vulnerable to compensate.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laryngeal_nerve

I kinda like vestigal organs ... just fry 'em up with a little coating of flour and spices.....not as tasty as babies, but not bad at all!

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/12/07/mommy-why-is-that-man-covered-with-penises/

That diagram is the sort of stupidity that can only arise from treating mythology-based masturbation fantasies as fact, the way that creationists do. Because this is the sort of shit one has to make up, in order to deal with the hilariously inconvenient manner in which reality sticks the middle finger to creationist fantasies.

Oh, and the "Missing Universe Museum" is about as far to the anencephalic edge of the dumbfuck spectrum as creationism gets.

Glad you got the image before winter and all the leaves had dropped

Thanks for the responses!

Thinking about vestigal hips in whales reminds me of one of my aha! moments in unlearning a lifetime of creationist indoctrination 23 years ago. I was reading Robert Bakker's "The Dinosaur Heresies" and came upon his description of throwbacks, or atavisms. Among other examples he told how whalers had sometimes pulled up a whale that had hind legs in various stages of development, from tiny stubs to virtually complete legs. This proves beyond argument that whales still have genes for legs, which have been switched off. That showed to me at the time that either the Creator was a very sloppy "genetic programmer" or that life really did evolve.