What makes a good/bad Devil's Advocate?
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Mithcoriel wrote:So I heard there is the beautiful fantasy world in which everyone is perfectly rational: never gets aggressive or biased in debates, lays out their reasoning in perfect logic, takes time to read and understand the opponent's logic, thanks people who prove them wrong cause they like to learn, always welcomes devil's advocates or people of opposing viewpoints as a chance to broaden their horizon, and ultimately everyone comes to the same objectively logic conclusion.
How much of the above is reality? I mean even outside fundamentalist religious circles or other cult-like groups where they prefer echo-chambers. Does this reflect the majority of regular people? Does it even reflect the majority of people in skeptic communities like this one? Should people be expected to tolerate rational counter-arguments to their worldview?
Cause I'm a total devil's advocate. If you want to know which side of an issue I'm on: it's the one I'm criticizing the most. If there's one side I won't tolerate mistakes on, it's my own. But when does the devil's advocate go too far?
Look at the attached picture. Its maker seems to have a different opinion on devil's advocates.
"I'm just asking questions" : is this a good thing or a dick move?
"So what you're basically saying" : obviously misrepresenting what your opponent says is wrong, no argument there. Same with rejecting evidence.
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
felltoearth wrote:There is a fair amount of straw manning here and poisoning the well. Reality is that humans have emotions that are part of our cognitive architecture. This is helpful where, as one example puts it, if there is a rustle in the bushes it motivates us to flee regardless of the fact that said rustling is caused by a tiger or a squirrel. Layered on top of this is a cognitive pattern seeking part of our brain that looks for cause, and can often be derailed by biases that we bring to the exercise. All that skepticism does at its foundation is ask the question “Do I have a good reason to believe that what is causing the rustling is X?” There are many tools available to us to answer that question. One of the most effective, as has been demonstrated time and again, is science.
Macdoc wrote:I suspect styling yourself as an informed skeptic gets away from the pop culture ( and somewhat dated ) devil's advocate meme.
Informed is the key ...Neils Bohr could be "devil's advocate" to Einstein ...but neither you nor I can,
And yes "too nitpicking" gets annoying ...just like grammar nazis but willingness to "peer review" a claim that may have insufficient evidence with it is certainly part of the spirit here and appreciated by others.
felltoearth wrote:I think steel manning a position is a good alternative to DA. It’s a kind of DA without actually having to *cough* assume the position.
Mithcoriel wrote:felltoearth wrote:I think steel manning a position is a good alternative to DA. It’s a kind of DA without actually having to *cough* assume the position.
Ah interesting. I hadn't head of Steelmanning before. That's pretty cool.
But Steelmanning is what you do to an opponent's position. Devil's Advocate is what you do to your own. Or to someone with whom you agree with for the most part but have one or two disagreements.
In common parlance, the phrase playing devil's advocate describes a situation where someone, given a certain point of view, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further using a valid reasoning that both disagrees with the subject at hand and proves their own point valid.
Mithcoriel wrote:Well, Devil's Advocate is "I agree with you, but..." whereas Steelmanning is "I disagree with you, but..."
You can play DA against your own position. You can't steelman your own position.
If my friend posts a suggestion on how America can get public health care, and I am also in favour of public health care, but I see a problem my friend overlooked: pointing out that problem would be playing Devil's Advocate. What would steelmanning be in that example?
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