Many a time I've had an old person heavily insist that based on their experience, I, as a young person, should follow their advice. What do you feel about the experience and wisdom of others?

I have a strong dislike of people who use their experience as a credential for the value of their advice and that people often equate their experience to fact. It's necessary to be cautious of experience as it can teach us incorrect things. An example: When I complained, I got fired, therefore it's better not to complain!. Looking at the example, one must ask, in what setting was I/they fired? In what ways has employment changed? How did I/they approach my/their boss? Asking these questions brings into doubt one's own experience, which I think can be uncomfortable for people who value experience. People can take quite a lot of offence to having their experience questioned with reason.

However, they forget that:
1. People approach things in different ways from different perspectives other than their own
2. Different results may come out from the same social situation when repeated by the same person
3. Experience can scare people into giving up, and espousing the hopelessness of the situation as if it were fact

This is I believe reason is better, because you balance experience with sense.

False dichotomy - you should use both reason and experience.

the whole point of advice is that one follows, or not follows as one decides based on all available information. i quit 'giving advice' because people so badly misunderstood what was said and instead offered to discuss the problem to ascertain what solutions might be available. it's still advice, but wearing a different frock. it does make it easier for the recipient to do the weighing up without the feeling of 'letting down' some adviser.

to insist that someone should follow advice, based on any criteria, is a monstrous liberty not to be countenanced. if some old fart tells me should follow its advice simply on seniority in years, i'd laugh in its face. bloody cheek. i asked for advice, not orders.

I agree, and I think your technique is well thought out. It's better to suggest positive solutions than to criticise someone and expect them to be open to your ideas.

I am still unclear on how experience fits into our lives, and how well it is compared to reason. Sure it's not a dichotomy, doesn't mean we can't weigh up each's merits. Experience is the way we learn certainly, but it seems logic does win out. Does science trust experience? No it directly questions it and subjects it to testing.

Paul1 wrote:Many a time I've had an old person heavily insist that based on their experience, I, as a young person, should follow their advice. What do you feel about the experience and wisdom of others?

I have a strong dislike of people who use their experience as a credential for the value of their advice and that people often equate their experience to fact. It's necessary to be cautious of experience as it can teach us incorrect things. An example: When I complained, I got fired, therefore it's better not to complain!. Looking at the example, one must ask, in what setting was I/they fired? In what ways has employment changed? How did I/they approach my/their boss? Asking these questions brings into doubt one's own experience, which I think can be uncomfortable for people who value experience. People can take quite a lot of offence to having their experience questioned with reason.

However, they forget that:
1. People approach things in different ways from different perspectives other than their own
2. Different results may come out from the same social situation when repeated by the same person
3. Experience can scare people into giving up, and espousing the hopelessness of the situation as if it were fact

This is I believe reason is better, because you balance experience with sense.

Experience and reason go hand in hand, they work very well together.

Don't you think it's annoying when some kid who knows nothing makes an obvious mistake that they wouldn't let you point out to them because they think they're too clever?

I don't think age always equals wisdom. Older people may have had more time to learn and experience certain things, but that doesn't mean that they have all used that time wisely.
"The Greatest Generation" in the USA are (in a general sense) an example of wasted time. They contributed a bit to World War 2 only to reflect the feel of the empires they were fighting against.

Mac_Guffin wrote:I don't think age always equals wisdom. Older people may have had more time to learn and experience certain things, but that doesn't mean that they have all used that time wisely.
"The Greatest Generation" in the USA are (in a general sense) an example of wasted time. They contributed a bit to World War 2 only to reflect the feel of the empires they were fighting against.

No not always but it increases the odds. When you've been around many years it gives you loads of time to experience, feel, think, and that kind of thing. It's a numbers game, I suppose.

logical bob wrote:Don't you think it's annoying when some kid who knows nothing makes an obvious mistake that they wouldn't let you point out to them because they think they're too clever?

Hell no, it's far too amusing to watch them fall on their asses and whine about how unfair the world is. One of the greatest pleasures of advancing age is knowing the young know-it-alls will eventually be where I am and realize that they actually don't know a fucking thing.

I spent many years trying to understand women from a logical perspective. It's a fruitless, doomed enterprise. I do fine now, because experience tells me to just shut up and pour some more wine if I want to get laid.

laklak wrote:I do fine now, because experience tells me to just shut up and pour some more wine if I want to get laid.

This is the first thing that I have seen you post that has actually made sense, ever.

Stick around, I'm right most of the time. But you probably won't realize that for another 30 years or so.

As an old fart with lots of experience, I don't expect people to follow my advice. I give it simply so that I can laugh my ass off when they don't follow it and fuck up.

Fuck'em. I've spent way too much of my time in the last 12 years showing the new guy the ropes. I refer to it as mostly doing it myself. If they want to listen, I am a fountain of knowledge. If they don't, I'm the guy laughing at them all day. It doesn't pay to get frustrated over it any more.

Other peoples experiences are not something to be copied or not copied. Other peoples advice is not something to be followed or not followed. The purpose of these things for me, is that they can provide extremely valuable assistance in my own decision making.

John

Paul1 wrote:Many a time I've had an old person heavily insist that based on their experience, I, as a young person, should follow their advice. What do you feel about the experience and wisdom of others?

I have a strong dislike of people who use their experience as a credential for the value of their advice and that people often equate their experience to fact. It's necessary to be cautious of experience as it can teach us incorrect things. An example: When I complained, I got fired, therefore it's better not to complain!. Looking at the example, one must ask, in what setting was I/they fired? In what ways has employment changed? How did I/they approach my/their boss? Asking these questions brings into doubt one's own experience, which I think can be uncomfortable for people who value experience. People can take quite a lot of offence to having their experience questioned with reason.

However, they forget that:
1. People approach things in different ways from different perspectives other than their own
2. Different results may come out from the same social situation when repeated by the same person
3. Experience can scare people into giving up, and espousing the hopelessness of the situation as if it were fact

This is I believe reason is better, because you balance experience with sense.

Experience is, for me, the highest authority. The touchstone of validity is my own experience. No other person's ideas, and none of my own ideas, are as authoritative as my experience. It is to experience that I must return again and again, to discover a closer approximation to truth as it is in the process of becoming in me. Neither the Bible nor the prophets -- neither Freud nor research -- neither the revelations of God nor man -- can take precedence over my own direct experience. My experience is not authoritative because it is infallible. It is the basis of authority because it can always be checked in new primary ways. In this way its frequent error or fallibility is always open to correction. - Carl Rogers Emphasis mine.

Here's what a few other old farts (and some not so old) had to say about experience:

When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years. Mark Twain

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain

I think I'm going to sig this one.

Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't - Pete Seeger

The only source of knowledge is experience - Albert Einstein

Experience is the one thing you can get for free - Oscar WIlde

logical bob wrote:Don't you think it's annoying when some kid who knows nothing makes an obvious mistake that they wouldn't let you point out to them because they think they're too clever?

EDIT: It's not so much I mind that, nor do I mind an old person refusing to acknowledge an obvious mistake because they think they're too wise. It's when people use the fact that they're clever or wise directly as an argument as to why the other person is wrong. It's annoying, having a degree or being old doesn't make you infallible! Similarly, being famous and having popular quotes doesn't make their quotes correct.



I think Grimstad's attitude is one I already take. If people want to listen, I'm happy to say. If they don't, I don't care, it's not my problem. I try to listen to what my senior's say, but will ultimately use my own judgement. I avoid discussing my business with seniors who enjoy a laugh out of my failure, and very much enjoy laughing at these people's irritability when I succeed.




An illustration of where experience can fuck up: People often do things which can be self destructive. Despite the destruction their behaviour(s) cause, they keep on doing it - and despite having a painful experience they do the same problematic thing again and again. An example is believing that you are too old to learn. Many people are stuck in boring jobs they don't really like, but feel powerless to change their situation. When they ask their seniors, they are told that there is an age limit to educating yourself, and that no company wants an old person. So they stay where they are, getting older and feeling more hopeless as they age. They become so depressed with their situation, they feel hopeless to change it, but never actually investigate alternative ideas, discarding them as "It's too late".

Has anyone actually verified that getting a job is impossible for an older person? Where is the evidence? Is educating yourself only for the purposes of work, or does it serve other purposes, such as recreation? --- The problem is the experience espoused by others, and the subsequent experience had as a result of clutching onto that advice lead to negative and possibly false experiences. Had the person decided to question the wisdom of their seniors' experiences, they might have found alternative ideas and had a completely different experience. This is especially true as their seniors lived in a different world at their age, and had different, probably less, opportunities than a person does now.


"Kant argues that experience, values and the meaning of life will be purely subjective without first being subsumed under pure reason, while using reason without applying it to experience will only lead to theoretical illusions."

laklak wrote:

logical bob wrote:Don't you think it's annoying when some kid who knows nothing makes an obvious mistake that they wouldn't let you point out to them because they think they're too clever?

Hell no, it's far too amusing to watch them fall on their asses and whine about how unfair the world is. One of the greatest pleasures of advancing age is knowing the young know-it-alls will eventually be where I am and realize that they actually don't know a fucking thing.

I spent many years trying to understand women from a logical perspective. It's a fruitless, doomed enterprise. I do fine now, because experience tells me to just shut up and pour some more wine if I want to get laid.

Well... Ok... Perhaps logic wasn't successful for you, but that doesn't mean other adults your age didn't find it successful? You state it as if it is a fact, whilst actually it is merely your own experience. The point is, your experience isn't an absolute truth. Many youth today face a different world of dating to you, simply for being part of a different generation. Your own experiences may only partially apply or not apply at all.

Once again, you feel you don't know a "fucking thing" but that doesn't mean all adults your age feel clueless. It's only through whining that things get fairer - might I suggest that rather than becoming wiser, you simply decided to live your life rather than keep stressing, seeing that a younger generation was continuing the work you had started anyway.

Women never change, Paul. that might only be personal experience, but trust me on this. Just pour the wine.

Paul1 wrote:Many a time I've had an old person heavily insist that based on their experience, I, as a young person, should follow their advice. What do you feel about the experience and wisdom of others?

I would listen to what others said... no matter what age, and put what was said into a safe keeping of options to go by.

When older people speak to me about their experiences, I tend to have a little more respect and contemplate their opinions a little more. Even if they may be wrong. But they've gone through a lot more experiences than me.

Either way, it's always best, I think - to just keep the opinions of others in mind... yet, go by your own thoughts and what you have learned before anyone else's experiences come into play.

I don't really know where fact comes to play in all this. Is there really a fact in your experience? It's all subjective, no?