Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#181  Postby bartolomiow » Jun 30, 2019 10:48 pm

Rumraket wrote:
bartolomiow wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
bartolomiow wrote:

Oh I see. It's because no one tells gays about those things. And if by chance any of them figure out what a condom is for, they hide them from them. Right, got it.

So you think they're already told, but they need to be told even more by you and me, and THEN it'll totally work and people who engage in unprotected sex will stop doing so?

What exactly is it you think that needs to be done, if not better and more sex education? I mean you say we need to call it foolish to engage in unprotected sex. How would we do that, except by telling them through comprehensive sex education? By teaching and informing people who engage in unprotected sex that they are engaging in risky behavior?

Now you seem to be saying that's not good enough, you're implicitly complaining that because they're already told this, it's not enough? So what then? What's next? How do we finally get people to stop practicing unsafe sex? Telling them through sex education is clearly not enough, right?


Straight people don't seem to have this issue. Gays do. That's the difference. Gays aren't stupid. They know as well as everyone else what the risks are.

Dude, you're not answering my questions. Just stop hiding your real opinions. Come out and say it, clearly you are afraid of saying what you really believe. Stop beating around the bush. What should we do to reduce the amount of unprotected sex gay people have?

You think they're already told in sex education that it's risky and unsafe. It's not working, so what next?

But a lot of them love taking risks as people like you cheer them on. You go guys! You only live once!

Quote me cheering unprotected sex on. Quote it.


What should be done? What makes you think anyone but themselves should do anything? They receive the same level of education as everyone else, and condoms are as available to them as anyone else. There's no need for anyone to do anything for them. They know what to do, and that is to quit being so promiscuous, stop having anal sex with strangers, and use condoms. But many of them choose not to, so many in fact that it results in a high rate of HIV.

Are you saying that gays are stupid and need further clarification on these matters?
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#182  Postby Rumraket » Jun 30, 2019 11:01 pm

bartolomiow wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
bartolomiow wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
So you think they're already told, but they need to be told even more by you and me, and THEN it'll totally work and people who engage in unprotected sex will stop doing so?

What exactly is it you think that needs to be done, if not better and more sex education? I mean you say we need to call it foolish to engage in unprotected sex. How would we do that, except by telling them through comprehensive sex education? By teaching and informing people who engage in unprotected sex that they are engaging in risky behavior?

Now you seem to be saying that's not good enough, you're implicitly complaining that because they're already told this, it's not enough? So what then? What's next? How do we finally get people to stop practicing unsafe sex? Telling them through sex education is clearly not enough, right?


Straight people don't seem to have this issue. Gays do. That's the difference. Gays aren't stupid. They know as well as everyone else what the risks are.

Dude, you're not answering my questions. Just stop hiding your real opinions. Come out and say it, clearly you are afraid of saying what you really believe. Stop beating around the bush. What should we do to reduce the amount of unprotected sex gay people have?

You think they're already told in sex education that it's risky and unsafe. It's not working, so what next?

But a lot of them love taking risks as people like you cheer them on. You go guys! You only live once!

Quote me cheering unprotected sex on. Quote it.


What should be done? What makes you think anyone but themselves should do anything? They receive the same level of education as everyone else, and condoms are as available to them as anyone else. There's no need for anyone to do anything for them. They know what to do, and that is to quit being so promiscuous, stop having anal sex with strangers, and use condoms. But many of them choose not to, so many in fact that it results in a high rate of HIV.

Are you saying that gays are stupid and need further clarification on these matters?

No that's you saying it, that we need to call it foolish. That was what you implied we should do when you said in post #157: "Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish. You have not once joined me in condemning it as foolish behavior. "

But now you seem to have reversed your position and taken a sort of fatalistic stance. Now the conclusion seems to be that you came here to tell us that rates of HIV are higher among promiscous gay men practicing unsafe sex, and there's nothing we should or can do about it it's up the gay people themselves, by implication there's no use telling them it's foolish because clearly gay people aren't stupid and don't need further clarification on the matter.

Do you even fucking know what your position is or are you just stirring shit up to see what sticks?

Btw ty for the tacit concession that I've not cheered on engaging in unprotected sex.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#183  Postby bartolomiow » Jun 30, 2019 11:13 pm

Rumraket wrote:
bartolomiow wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
bartolomiow wrote:

Straight people don't seem to have this issue. Gays do. That's the difference. Gays aren't stupid. They know as well as everyone else what the risks are.

Dude, you're not answering my questions. Just stop hiding your real opinions. Come out and say it, clearly you are afraid of saying what you really believe. Stop beating around the bush. What should we do to reduce the amount of unprotected sex gay people have?

You think they're already told in sex education that it's risky and unsafe. It's not working, so what next?

But a lot of them love taking risks as people like you cheer them on. You go guys! You only live once!

Quote me cheering unprotected sex on. Quote it.


What should be done? What makes you think anyone but themselves should do anything? They receive the same level of education as everyone else, and condoms are as available to them as anyone else. There's no need for anyone to do anything for them. They know what to do, and that is to quit being so promiscuous, stop having anal sex with strangers, and use condoms. But many of them choose not to, so many in fact that it results in a high rate of HIV.

Are you saying that gays are stupid and need further clarification on these matters?

No that's you saying it, that we need to call it foolish. That was what you implied we should do when you said in post #157: "Meanwhile, I'm the one emphasizing that it's foolish. You have not once joined me in condemning it as foolish behavior. "

But now you seem to have reversed your position and taken a sort of fatalistic stance. Now the conclusion seems to be that you came here to tell us that rates of HIV are higher among promiscous gay men practicing unsafe sex, and there's nothing we should or can do about it it's up the gay people themselves, by implication there's no use telling them it's foolish because clearly gay people aren't stupid and don't need further clarification on the matter.

Do you even fucking know what your position is or are you just stirring shit up to see what sticks?

Btw ty for the tacit concession that I've not cheered on engaging in unprotected sex.


I'm saying that gay men are intelligent enough to know the risks, but some of them are foolish in that they choose to take the risks regardless of knowing them. So yes, that informed choice that some of them make does need to be called foolish, because it is. If they didn't know the risks then we would call it uninformed. But they do know the risks, and so the ones that do it regardless are foolish. It is the fact that their choices are fully informed that makes them foolish.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#184  Postby Fallible » Jun 30, 2019 11:18 pm

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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#185  Postby Fallible » Jun 30, 2019 11:18 pm

Oh, I missed everything.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#186  Postby Fallible » Jun 30, 2019 11:19 pm

Posting for each eyeball again.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#187  Postby Rumraket » Jun 30, 2019 11:22 pm

bartolomiow wrote:I'm saying that gay men are intelligent enough to know the risks, but some of them are foolish in that they choose to take the risks regardless of knowing them. So yes, that informed choice that some of them make does need to be called foolish, because it is. If they didn't know the risks then we would call it uninformed. But they do know the risks, and so the ones that do it regardless are foolish. It is the fact that their choices are fully informed that makes them foolish.

And you respect their right and freedom to do it, and recognize you can do nothing about it and don't think you should. You just think it's foolish.

Well, wow. How the fuck could anyone have lived without you coming here to state this? You have provided fuck all of value or consequence.

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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#188  Postby Thommo » Jun 30, 2019 11:23 pm

Fallible wrote:Oh, I missed everything.


You did. You missed everything. Twice.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#189  Postby Thommo » Jun 30, 2019 11:47 pm

Anyway, filtering down the results of the last few of hours of reading and checking, here are the best results I could find on the relative risks of HIV to gay men* (bearing in mind we saw in this thread that women globally make up about 49.5% of the population and 52% of HIV prevalence, giving them a global representation of about parity, but just a smidge over at 1.05):

https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/fact-sheet
The risk of acquiring HIV is:
27 times higher among men who have sex with men.
23 times higher among people who inject drugs.
13 times higher for female sex workers.
13 times higher for transgender women.


This page has a detailed geographical breakdown of estimated HIV rates for MSM in a table down the right side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_and_m ... x_with_men

This page had a wealth of useful facts, figures and graphs, although not a direct answer that I could see:
https://ourworldindata.org/hiv-aids

This was a decent page about the “promiscuity” distribution of gay people and straights focusing on a GINI coefficient and graphs:
https://contexts.org/blog/an-unequal-di ... straights/
Image

This debunking myths about gay men page mentioned averages for number of partners:
https://www.lehmiller.com/blog/2012/9/2 ... ience.html
MYTH #1: Gay men sleep around a lot more than straight men. Although some politicians and anti-gay groups want you to believe that gay men are a bunch of “horny sluts,” there is good reason not to buy into this stereotype. First, although gay men typically report a higher number of partners than heterosexual men on average, we need to look at the median (or 50th percentile) before drawing any conclusions because averages can be easily distorted by a few extreme responses (and, indeed, there is a small number of gay men who accumulate an extremely large number of partners). For instance, if we look at the median number of sex partners in the National Health and Social Life Survey (a nationally representative sex survey conducted in the United States), we see that gay men only outpace heterosexual men by one [1]. Other studies have reported similar findings. Thus, the majority of gay and heterosexual men are actually pretty similar in this regard.
Second, it is important to note that gay men are no hornier than their heterosexual counterparts. Research has found that the sex drives of gay and heterosexual men are equally high [2]. This tells us that any difference in number of partners is not due to gay men having increased sexual urges; rather, it is probably a reflection of the fact that men are generally more interested in casual sex than are women. Thus, heterosexual men may lag behind slightly because they do not have as many opportunities—not because they are any less interested in sex.

And wiki had something useful to say too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promiscuity
A 1989 study found having over 100 partners to be present though rare among homosexual males.[21] General Social Survey data indicates that the distribution of partner numbers among men who have sex exclusively with men and men who have sex exclusively with women is similar, but that differences appear in the proportion of those with very high number of partners, which is larger among gay men, but that in any case makes up a small minority for both groups.[22] OkCupid discovered a similar pattern in the data collected from its vast number of users, published in 2010: the median number of self-reported lifetime sexual partners for both gay and straight men was six; however, a small minority of gay men (2%) were having a disproportionate share of all self-reported gay sex (23%).[23] According to updated OkCupid data published in 2014, gay male users self-reported a lower median of lifetime sex partners than straight male users: four for gay men and five for straight men.[24] A 2007 study reported that two large population surveys found "the majority of gay men had similar numbers of unprotected sexual partners annually as straight men and women."[25][26]


The earlier OK cupid data cited in the wiki seems to go to a dead link, but this page seems to have reproduced the survey findings:
https://gizmodo.com/data-backed-shocker ... me-5661086

I will just emphasize the very last part I marked in red there:
"According to updated OkCupid data published in 2014, gay male users self-reported a lower median of lifetime sex partners than straight male users: four for gay men and five for straight men"
This finding is that gay men might actually have less partners, by median average, than straight men. Although there were more sources claiming that gay men tended to have more in what I read there was this minority but significant view/finding in the opposite direction in a number of places. Which somewhat reinforces where I weighed in on this in #22 - it is a possibility that promiscuity plays a role in the spread of STDs and HIV in MSM, but it's not actually completely clear that it does or that that role is all that extensive if so.

As for the rate of HIV in straight women being higher than in gay men, that's going to be completely untrue - globally the incidence** rate in MSM is about 26 times higher than the rate in women. MSM is not exactly the same category as gay men and women is not exactly the same category as straight women, but they are such dominant subcategories the estimate is going to be as good as you can get.

*Noting that the statistics actually pertain to the category of MSM that is used in study.
*It is possible the original claim was alluding imprecisely to prevalence, not incidence, but we can hardly ask now. It is unlikely to change the finding in any meaningful respect anyway.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#190  Postby Thommo » Jul 01, 2019 12:59 am

On a potentially related note, a source like this one:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4873305/

Would yield a USA percentage of males who are MSM (as of 2016) at around 2.8%, or 1.4% of the population. Or about 3.6% of men over 18.

This looked potentially interesting and relevant, but I've run out of steam and didn't get around to reading it:
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.c ... 458-13-919
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#191  Postby Spinozasgalt » Jul 01, 2019 1:28 am

Socky McSockerson is right. We gays are lost in our mindless hedonism and promiscuity. Just yesterday I had sex 17 times. 23 times the day before. And I know what you're all thinking, why is that figure so low? Well, I've been under the weather this week. I'll get back into triple digits once I'm better.

Thommo wrote:Just doing a spot of reading about promiscuity and found this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promiscuity
In 2008, a U.S. university study of international promiscuity found that Finns have had the largest number of sex partners in the industrialized world, and British people have the largest number among big western industrial nations. The study measured one-night stands, attitudes to casual sex, and number of sexual partners.[10][11][12] A 2014 nationwide survey in the United Kingdom named Liverpool the country's most promiscuous city.[13]


Which seemed stereotype defying to me and raised a smile.

Anyway, fair warning to you all - sleep with a Finn, Brit or Scouser at your own risk!!

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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#192  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 01, 2019 1:48 am

What an asshole that chap is. Silly, sad little man who needs to vent his hatred to a bunch of strangers on the internet! :nono:
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#193  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 01, 2019 4:13 am

Spearthrower wrote:What an asshole that chap is. Silly, sad little man who needs to vent his hatred to a bunch of strangers on the internet! :nono:

It was super important for him to tell us that people who are for sex education are really just encouraging people to have unsafe sex. No, really!
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#194  Postby Spearthrower » Jul 01, 2019 5:16 am

Spearthrower wrote:Pride comes before a fall! :popcorn:



I assume it was Pridefel whateverhisface... do you think he spent the weeks since he was banned plotting how to come back and stick it to the evil homo-loving atheists?
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#195  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 01, 2019 6:35 am

Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
bartolomiow wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
You only emphasize that it's foolish when gay people do it. I wonder why?

And what's your solution, exactly?


Because the rate of HIV among gays is very high, as has been pointed out.

It's higher among straight women though, yet you keep dodging that issue.


I don't think that's right. What is your source?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3805037/
In 2012, men who have sex with men (MSM) are at substantial risk for HIV infection in virtually every context studied (panel 1).1,3,4 This risk has been present since the syndrome now known as AIDS was first described in previously healthy homosexual men in Los Angeles (CA, USA) in 1981.5–7 Despite decades of research and community, medical, and public health efforts, high HIV prevalence and incidence burdens have been reported in MSM throughout the world.8 In many high-income settings—including Australia, France, the UK, and the USA—overall HIV epidemic trends are in decline except in MSM, where they have been expanding in the era of highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) in what have been described as re-emergent epidemics in MSM.9,10 In the USA, HIV infections in MSM are estimated to be increasing at roughly 8% per year since 2001.9 And in much of Africa, Asia, and Latin America, the highest rates of HIV infection in any risk group are in these men.8

However, our understanding of worldwide epidemiology is far from complete. By the end of 2011, 93 of 196 countries had not reported on HIV prevalence in MSM in the previous 5 years.11 In several regions, notably the Middle East, north Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa, data for HIV infections in MSM are only emerging.12,13 Data gaps and challenges to HIV research, surveillance, and epidemiological characterisation in MSM are largely the result of the hidden and stigmatised nature of MSM populations in much of the world, and of ongoing criminalisation of homosexuality and other forms of same-sex behaviour.11 These structural realities have limited our understanding, and might also have crucial roles in the vulnerability of MSM to HIV.14,15 We review the global epidemiology and disease burden of HIV infection in MSM; individual-level, couple, and network-level risks for HIV acquisition and transmission; biological aspects of anorectal HIV transmission; and molecular epidemiology advances, with the aim of understanding why MSM continue to bear such disproportionate burdens of HIV.


These links are supposed (according to the citation in some UN page I opened and have now closed) to contain information of HIV prevalence in women globally, although I couldn't find it explicitly:
https://www.unaids.org/sites/default/fi ... 017_en.pdf
https://www.unaids.org/sites/default/fi ... hiv_en.pdf


See these:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/general-chat/rates-of-hiv-and-other-stis-in-the-lgbt-community-t56072.html#p2703061

Image
https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/infographics/women_girls_hiv_sub_saharan_africa

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4893541/
Sub-Saharan Africa carries a disproportionate burden of HIV, accounting for more than 70% of the global burden of infection.
---
Sub-Saharan Africa is home to only 12% of the global population, yet accounts for 71% of the global burden of HIV infection.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#196  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jul 01, 2019 7:16 am

The conclusion Opie provided for us is very enlightening. Sometimes people make poor choices that have negative outcomes. HOLY SMOKES!

One of my besties is one of those promiscuous (at one time in his life) gay men who, contrary to warnings, opted out of prophylaxis for most of his life. Then he got the herp. I don't see any good coming from telling him what terrible, foolish choices he's made, not using condoms for all those years. He's the one who gets sores and has to take valacyclovir.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#197  Postby Thommo » Jul 01, 2019 9:37 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:See these:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/general-chat/rates-of-hiv-and-other-stis-in-the-lgbt-community-t56072.html#p2703061

Image
https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/infographics/women_girls_hiv_sub_saharan_africa

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4893541/
Sub-Saharan Africa carries a disproportionate burden of HIV, accounting for more than 70% of the global burden of infection.
---
Sub-Saharan Africa is home to only 12% of the global population, yet accounts for 71% of the global burden of HIV infection.


I do see them.

They do not say anything like straight women having a higher rate of HIV than gay men that I can see.

The quotes say that ~70% of HIV is found in sub-Saharan Africa. If every single one of those was women (which isn't true, more than half are children or men) it would only show that women are overrepresented by a factor of 1.41 or more, and would not tell us anything about straight women per se, although it would pin the rate among straight women in a similar neighbourhood (since something like 93% to 96% of women worldwide are estimated to be straight).

Of the remaining 30% it would only take 5% to be gay men (typically MSM in the literature) for gay men to also be overrepresented by a factor of 1.41 or more.

The most relevant claim on the poster is that in the 15-24 age group (in a region that's not clear, possibly sub-Saharan Africa too) approximately 60% of new infections are among women, which would also indicate an overrepresentation of incidence of new infections of HIV among women (not straight women) in that region and age group of a factor of 1.5 compared to men (not gay men or MSM).

Contrast this with the overrepresentation of incidence of new infections of HIV among MSM globally according to UNAIDS:
https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/fact-sheet
The risk of acquiring HIV is:

27 times higher among men who have sex with men.
23 times higher among people who inject drugs.
13 times higher for female sex workers.
13 times higher for transgender women.


1.5 is more than an order of magnitude shy of 27.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#198  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 01, 2019 6:50 pm

Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:See these:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/general-chat/rates-of-hiv-and-other-stis-in-the-lgbt-community-t56072.html#p2703061

Image
https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/infographics/women_girls_hiv_sub_saharan_africa

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4893541/
Sub-Saharan Africa carries a disproportionate burden of HIV, accounting for more than 70% of the global burden of infection.
---
Sub-Saharan Africa is home to only 12% of the global population, yet accounts for 71% of the global burden of HIV infection.


I do see them.

They do not say anything like straight women having a higher rate of HIV than gay men that I can see.

The quotes say that ~70% of HIV is found in sub-Saharan Africa. If every single one of those was women (which isn't true, more than half are children or men) it would only show that women are overrepresented by a factor of 1.41 or more, and would not tell us anything about straight women per se, although it would pin the rate among straight women in a similar neighbourhood (since something like 93% to 96% of women worldwide are estimated to be straight).

Of the remaining 30% it would only take 5% to be gay men (typically MSM in the literature) for gay men to also be overrepresented by a factor of 1.41 or more.

The most relevant claim on the poster is that in the 15-24 age group (in a region that's not clear, possibly sub-Saharan Africa too) approximately 60% of new infections are among women, which would also indicate an overrepresentation of incidence of new infections of HIV among women (not straight women) in that region and age group of a factor of 1.5 compared to men (not gay men or MSM).

Contrast this with the overrepresentation of incidence of new infections of HIV among MSM globally according to UNAIDS:
https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/fact-sheet
The risk of acquiring HIV is:

27 times higher among men who have sex with men.
23 times higher among people who inject drugs.
13 times higher for female sex workers.
13 times higher for transgender women.


1.5 is more than an order of magnitude shy of 27.

From that same source:
Women

Every week, around 7000 young women aged 15–24 years become infected with HIV.
In sub-Saharan Africa, three in four new infections among adolescents aged 15–19 years are in girls. Young women aged 15–24 years are twice as likely to be living with HIV than men.

I also question the bit you quoted, since in my experience, such risk factors tend to fail to take into account monogamy and safe sex vis a vis promiscuity and lack of protection.
Ie a unprotected man having sex with multiple unprotected men may indeed have a much higher risk of infection than a man that uses protection and only has sex with one female partner. But so does a protected man having sex with only one healthy and protected man. It in fact this poorly defined 'men who have sex with men' risk, that has come under increasing scrutiny as it is also why the Red Cross bans any gay man from donating blood. Even if they've only had sex with a man once and did not contract any STIs or STDs.
At the same time, the stats I quoted show actual infection rates, rather than estimates.
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#199  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 01, 2019 6:56 pm

The wiki article on the blood donor controversy offers another interesting statistic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_who_have_sex_with_men_blood_donor_controversy
In many developed countries HIV is more prevalent among men who have sex with men (MSM) than among the general population.[4]

In the United States in 2005, MSM, African Americans, and persons engaging in high-risk heterosexual behavior accounted for respectively 49%, 49%, and 32% of new HIV diagnoses.[8] In 2009 in the United States, African Americans accounted for 47.9% of new HIV diagnoses reported that year, but represented approximately only 12% of the population.

This statistic would suggest that African Americans are somehow inherently more at risk of HIV than other population groups.
I suspect that, just like with MSM, it's not so much about the sexuality or race of the persons involved, but protection and promiscuity or the lack thereof.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

#200  Postby Thommo » Jul 01, 2019 7:01 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:At the same time, the stats I quoted show actual infection rates, rather than estimates.


The stats you quoted refer to "women" (aged 15-24) and "men" (in sub-Saharan Africa).

The claim was about "straight women" and "gay men" (worldwide).

That evidence therefore does not support the claim. Whereas the evidence in the other post refutes it. The rate of HIV among straight women is not higher than the rate of HIV among gay men.
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