Are/were Dragons real animals?

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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#61  Postby Calilasseia » Aug 22, 2013 10:35 pm

MarkgaB5 wrote:How do we know theyre mythical?


You think a giant winged reptile wouldn't leave behind it persistent remains, in the form of a bloody huge skeleton? One that moreover, if these legends bore any connection to reality, would be reliably datable to recent times? After all, skeletons of large ancient reptiles have repeatedly proven to be sufficiently persistent to last long enough for palaeontologists to dig them up, and for that matter, skeletons of organisms pre-dating reptiles have also proven to be thus persistent.

Plus, if any such giant reptiles had actually existed, I suspect quite a few civilisations would have set about trying to capture one, and document the relevant event. Civilisations that developed writing systems, such as the ancient Chinese, ancient Egyptians, Phoenicians or Greeks, would have been very strongly motivated to do this. Preservation of the remains of such an organism would likely have been a priority too, not least because Aristotle, one of the foremost students of the biosphere in the era of Classical Antiquity, spent decades dissecting and studying just about anything he could lay his hands on, and a giant flying reptile would have been a "must have" specimen for his attentions. Oddly enough, both the ancient Egyptians and the Greeks left behind a body of writing devoted to the Nile Crocodile, a 25 foot long reptile that can be observed in action today, the Greeks additionally noting that the Egyptians had a city devoted to religious worship of a crocodile god, a city the Greeks referred to as "Crocodilopolis" in their writings.

It's one of the reasons I can safely dismiss fatuous creationist assertions that non-avian dinosaurs and humans coexisted around 4,000 BCE. Because quite a few civilisations would have been only too eager to report the appearance of a honking great 50 ton Sauropod dinosaur turning up and munching on their crops, or a full sized Tyrannosaurus rex making a meal of several of the villagers. The fact that none of the ancient civilisations provided reports of this sort, along with the complete absence of remains that are reliably datable to recent age for any of these organisms, should be telling you something important here.
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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#62  Postby Calilasseia » Aug 22, 2013 10:50 pm

Of course, we also have to factor in here, that modern day flying reptiles do exist, except they're somewhat on the small side. The largest of the flying lizards, Draco blanfordii, is, as you can see here, not more than about 30 cm long (including tail), and it's "wings" are actually nothing more than skin flaps stretched across rib extensions, without any of the joints associated with wings capable of powered flight. This lizard, along with several others in its Genus, is a glider, not a powered flier.

We also have to factor in here, the propensity of some humans to exaggerate. It's entirely possible that, caught by surprise by one of these lizards, someone went and told the rest of the village about a "great flying reptile", multiplying the size accordingly to make his account look suitably heroic, because he didn't want to look like a prat because he had the willies put up him by something marginally bigger than a Chihuahua. Usually, people point and laugh at you if something small scares you, unless of course that something small packs something of a punch, for example, those nice venomous Phoneutria spiders in South America, whose venom can kill you. No one in Brazil will laugh at you for being scared of one of these, because their extreme aggressiveness, venom toxicity and all-round bad-ass nature is well known. Likewise, people don't laugh at you for swiping your hand at mosquitoes, because in numerous parts of the world, these small insects carry killer diseases - malaria has probably been the biggest killer of human beings on this planet since our species became recognisably separate from other hominids.

On the other hand, small lizards or mammals without any obvious killer weaponry, aren't going to make for a great campfire story. Particularly not when there are bigger ones, such as crocodiles, bears and various predatory big cats, to give you plenty of reasons to reach for the running shoes. Consequently, it's quite possible that tales of giant flying lizards were nothing more than an attempt to avoid looking like a wuss after being spooked by something like Draco blanfordii, which, oddly enough, is a native of China, one of the very places from which "dragon" legends arise.
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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#63  Postby SafeAsMilk » Aug 22, 2013 11:12 pm

laklak wrote:Oh, the huge manatee!

Nicely done.
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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#64  Postby SafeAsMilk » Aug 22, 2013 11:14 pm

theropod wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
MarkgaB5 wrote:Well, the sac which contains hydrogen destabilizes during deocomposition, perhaps..thats mentioned a couple of times. Another theory is that dragons didnt have bone but instead had cartrilidge, which prevents fossilization or bones lasting long.

Maybe their bones are made out of dirt, so that when they die there really, really isn't any trace of them left.

Maybe their bones are made out of sausage links, so that when they die they leave little roasted weenies everywhere. Convenient, AND delicious!

Or maybe they didn't exist, and you don't have to make up fanciful theories to explain why something that doesn't exist has left no evidence behind.


Trouble is we do have fossils which preserve far more delicate biological structures than cartilage. Insects, and feathers, in amber? Pollen in deep ocean sediment?

Any dragon worth its sparks would be as large as a T. rex, surely. That would require some robust mechanical support structures that would surely fossilize. Ossified hadrosaur tendons from the distal vertebrae support system litter some Hell Creek bentonite flats, and these were cartilaginous-like and not bone in living dinosaurs, so if there were dragons around there should be evidence no matter the support system.

There isn't any such evidence, but maybe we'll find a flying reptile-like thing as big as a building made out of soap and could have puked up napalm on demand. Someone wake me up when there's a reliable report in the journals.

RS

Good points. Guess I'll have to stick with my dirt bones theory!
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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#65  Postby MisterScruffles » Aug 23, 2013 4:29 am

Dr. Richard Kent provides undeniable PROOF that dragons were real, and actually just the result of people seeing dinosaurs breathing fire from hyperventilating:
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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#66  Postby I'm With Stupid » Aug 23, 2013 5:12 am

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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#67  Postby campermon » Aug 23, 2013 7:43 pm

Not sure if anyone has posted this;

Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#68  Postby Alan B » Aug 24, 2013 2:38 pm

In Traditional Chinese Medicine, Dragon Bone is a well known treatment and is made from ground fossilised bones of, er, old dragons... :whistle:

I should know, I used to run a TCM shop, so there! :snooty:

Dragon Bone
While not an herb, dragon bone is nevertheless a vital component of many traditional Chinese medical remedies. "Dragon bone" is actually fossilized animal bone, which is high in calcium, potassium, sodium and other trace elements.


While I was running the shop I always imagined that someone had found a cache of dinosaur bones and the 'here there be dragons' scenario took over.
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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#69  Postby hackenslash » Aug 24, 2013 2:49 pm

MarkgaB5 wrote:But how do you explain the accounts of dragons which are written as if they were true? (eg. [location] a dragon attacked villagers and the [name] army slayed the dragon])


Ever read the bible?
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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#70  Postby hackenslash » Aug 24, 2013 2:54 pm

MarkgaB5 wrote:http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1120084-Do-you-believe-dragons-have-existed-in-the-past/page41

25% of voters believe dragons existed are fuckwits.. im sure not all of them are 10 yrs old.


FIFY.

they also give reason why no fossils are left, because the acid that makes hydrogen for them to fly easier dissolves the bones after death.


Ah yes, and the Earth is expanding via exotic matter being created via some unknown process.

It's easy to make shit up, and even easier to make up more shit to justify or explain it.
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Re: Are/were Dragons real animals?

#71  Postby SafeAsMilk » Aug 24, 2013 3:10 pm

Alan B wrote:In Traditional Chinese Medicine, Dragon Bone is a well known treatment and is made from ground fossilised bones of, er, old dragons... :whistle:

I should know, I used to run a TCM shop, so there! :snooty:

Dragon Bone
While not an herb, dragon bone is nevertheless a vital component of many traditional Chinese medical remedies. "Dragon bone" is actually fossilized animal bone, which is high in calcium, potassium, sodium and other trace elements.


While I was running the shop I always imagined that someone had found a cache of dinosaur bones and the 'here there be dragons' scenario took over.

On that note, it's time for a musical interlude...

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