Are gender ideology and transgender science and the ensuing medical procedures Pseudo Science?

Initially trans identities ,were people who wanted to "live or present" as the opposite sex. One of the first people to receive medical treatments was Lili Elbe formerly known as Einar Wegener.

Lili had four surgeries from 1930 until finally In 1931, Elbe returned for the fourth surgery, to transplant a uterus and construct a vaginal canal. This procedure failed and killed Lili.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_Elbe

They used to refer to these procedures as sex change surgeries now they call them gender affirming surgery. And they can be as extensive as vaginoplasty and Phalloplasty to breast reduction and orchiectomy (castration) for non-binary people.

Personally I think that gender either refers to biological males and females or is a meaningless term that now refers to peoples hidden self perception or ideas and it is not a good basis for science or medicine or law.

There are now an increasing number of lawsuits against surgeons and therapists from people who recieved gender affirming care and felt misled and suffered long term physical harm.

Just as well no-one listens to your ill-informed opinions then ay.

I met her in a bar down in Soho way

Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like coca cola

C-o-l-a cola

1970

50 years later and the world has learnt nothing

Andrew4Handel wrote:Are gender ideology and transgender science and the ensuing medical procedures Pseudo Science?

Initially trans identities ,were people who wanted to "live or present" as the opposite sex. One of the first people to receive medical treatments was Lili Elbe formerly known as Einar Wegener.

Lili had four surgeries from 1930 until finally In 1931, Elbe returned for the fourth surgery, to transplant a uterus and construct a vaginal canal. This procedure failed and killed Lili.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_Elbe

They used to refer to these procedures as sex change surgeries now they call them gender affirming surgery. And they can be as extensive as vaginoplasty and Phalloplasty to breast reduction and orchiectomy (castration) for non-binary people.

Personally I think that gender either refers to biological males and females or is a meaningless term that now refers to peoples hidden self perception or ideas and it is not a good basis for science or medicine or law.

There are now an increasing number of lawsuits against surgeons and therapists from people who recieved gender affirming care and felt misled and suffered long term physical harm.

How do you know what your gender is?

(That's not a rhetorical question btw}

Worth considering the information provided in this recent thread:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/psychology/brain-gender-t57422.html

There are now an increasing number of lawsuits against surgeons and therapists from people who recieved gender affirming care and felt misled and suffered long term physical harm.

There is now a vastly greater number of gender affirming surgeries occurring, so as a direct consequence of that, there may well be an increase in lawsuits, an increase in deaths, an increase in a range of negative consequences simply because, for example, 1% of 1000 is more than 1% of 100.

But that increase in the number of gender affirming surgeries occurring also means more people have the freedom to live their lives how they choose than in the past and don't have to suffer their entire lives through no fault of their own.

Gender affirming care is anything that helps any person be healthy, safe and secure in their gender. In other words, it's not just a trans thing.

I’ve never known a transgender person. But, I can imagine it.

Edit to add: My memory fails me. My apologies, Cindy.

What I can’t imagine is the heartless fucks who would deny such people care.

The_Metatron wrote:I’ve never known a transgender person.

Sure? (Apart from Cindy, as you say.) They're not all as obvious as the photos that transphobes like to post.

THWOTH wrote:
How do you know what your gender is?

(That's not a rhetorical question btw}

What is gender?

I have never referred to my gender in any circumstances. I am a biological male who currently has prostate problems. Does my gender impact on that?

I grew in my mother's womb and she is a woman. She was impregnated by my father's sperm.

Why does gender identity need medical procedures?

I face challenges due to being human and I am immune from problems facing biological women such as ovarian cancer, misogyny, PMS etc.

Spearthrower wrote:

There is now a vastly greater number of gender affirming surgeries occurring, so as a direct consequence of that, there may well be an increase in lawsuits, an increase in deaths, an increase in a range of negative consequences simply because, for example, 1% of 1000 is more than 1% of 100.

Here in the UK the Tavistock clinic that treated children with gender dysphoria is being closed down and potentially facing a law suit from 1000 affected families.

Staff at the clinic raised concerns including that the service was seeing a disproportionate number of gay and autistic children. Whistle-blower were silenced or sacked.

Puberty blockers in male children have caused the penis to permanently shrink and cause permanently infertilty
The later genital surgeries guarantees infertility.

Detransitioners no longer have penis and testicles or breasts.

It seems irrational to base a medical treatment on self diagnosis of the condition and treatments required. We don't give someone a million pounds if they claim it will avert suicide.

THWOTH wrote:Gender affirming care is anything that helps any person be healthy, safe and secure in their gender. In other words, it's not just a trans thing.

Gender is not a scientific concept. Medicine deals in verifiable conditions with treatments based around preexisting physiology.

How does turning a penis into a dysfunctional pseudo vagina amount to more than patient dictated bodily modification and mutilation and they can request unlimited surgeries and revisions until they feel their mental health is stable.

If by gender you mean sex steretypes or mode of self presentation that is a personal matter. I don't need to affirm my biological sex. It is immutable other people do not need to affirm my self identity. When does it become the medical domains responsibility to aid someones mode of presentation?

Andrew4Handel wrote:

THWOTH wrote:Gender affirming care is anything that helps any person be healthy, safe and secure in their gender. In other words, it's not just a trans thing.

Gender is not a scientific concept. Medicine deals in verifiable conditions with treatments based around preexisting physiology.

How does turning a penis into a dysfunctional pseudo vagina amount to more than patient dictated bodily modification and mutilation and they can request unlimited surgeries and revisions until they feel their mental health is stable.

If by gender you mean sex steretypes or mode of self presentation that is a personal matter. I don't need to affirm my biological sex. It is immutable other people do not need to affirm my self identity. When does it become the medical domains responsibility to aid someones mode of presentation?

You're confusing gender with sex in the descriptive sense, and then putting aside gender roles (social), gender identity and gender expression (personal).

THWOTH wrote:You're confusing gender with sex in the descriptive sense, and then putting aside gender roles (social), gender identity and gender expression (personal).

What is gender? I have not heard a coherent definition of it.

If someone goes on hormones and has surgeries to look like the opposite sex then they are imitating biological sex.

I do not believe that Caitlyn Jenner is a Woman. I do not believe it is possible to change sex.

So by using "She" I am just lying to soothe their feelings not because I share their beliefs about themselves so it is a game or charade.

All of society has to pretend, to make someone believe they are the opposite sex or nonbinary (Whatever that is). Legal lies and giving up single sex spaces to accommodate someone and allow them to have sex based awards and Jobs.

I am surprised the Skeptic community has been captured by this and is so unskeptical about it. Usually they don't allow peoples personal experiences to qualify as objectivity and demand rigorous proof of claims.

If I say the holy spirit spoke to me, I had a vision or intuition or anything anecdotal and based solely on personal belief that is attacked. But if I say I am a woman trapped in a mans body that is fine.

Andrew4Handel wrote:

THWOTH wrote:You're confusing gender with sex in the descriptive sense, and then putting aside gender roles (social), gender identity and gender expression (personal).

What is gender? I have not heard a coherent definition of it.

If someone goes on hormones and has surgeries to look like the opposite sex then they are imitating biological sex.

Not necessarily, they could just be adopting the appearance and a mannerisms in a way that reflects their own understanding of themselves without medical intervention. And besides, if you acknowledge the imitation then you acknowledge the distinction.

I'm not surprised you think gender is not a real thing. You're a man, and the society you live in is organised for the benefit and in the interests of men like yourself. It's just not an issue for you, perhaps in the same way that race is not an issue for someone who, by dint of being in the majority, isn't discriminated against on that basis.

As for definitions. You can't be looking very hard because dictionaries are full of them.

THWOTH wrote:

I'm not surprised you think gender is not a real thing. You're a man, and the society you live in is organised for the benefit and in the interests of men like yourself.

Actually I am a gay, autistic man who grew up in a Christian Fundamentalist house. I am also mixed race. I was bullied in school and in my local area. I hung around with girls in primary school. I read romances as a teen. I don't like sports or cars. I have constantly been attacked for being different.

Autistic and gay people are most vulnerable to gender ideology because of similar experiences to mine.

Allowing biological men to compete in women's sports and enter all women's spaces is the height of misogyny and male privilege. Gender ideology has the least effect on heterosexual men. They don't need to worry about women taking there awards. Rape and domestic shelters are almost all for women. Straight men are not force paired with the QTIA+ and can have there own spaces.

THWOTH wrote:

As for definitions. You can't be looking very hard because dictionaries are full of them.

You are the on defending gender so I can't discuss it if I don't know how you are defining it.

Currently it seems to mean sex stereotypes.

I am a non conforming male and I don't like to be told that I am performing masculinity. I am just existing as a male bodied person. Gender believers are the biggest performers of their ideas of gender.

You just defined yourself as a man, you self-identified, so let's not pretend you have no understanding of what gender means in either the general social sense or in a personal sense. If you do not feel like a typical representation of masculinity then you're probably an exception that proves the rule, as they say - for if masculinity wasn't a thing you'd have nothing to measure your non-conformity against. What is it about the transgendered which has you seemingly disavowing their individual sense of personhood while using that very same thing to affirm your own?

What I think you're doing here is arguing for your personal politics as the only reasonable yardstick by which we can determine the legitimacy of an individual's personhood.

Andrew4Handel wrote:

THWOTH wrote:
How do you know what your gender is?

(That's not a rhetorical question btw}

What is gender?

I have never referred to my gender in any circumstances. I am a biological male who currently has prostate problems. Does my gender impact on that?

I grew in my mother's womb and she is a woman. She was impregnated by my father's sperm.

Why does gender identity need medical procedures?

I face challenges due to being human and I am immune from problems facing biological women such as ovarian cancer, misogyny, PMS etc.

Gender = male or female explicitly when concerned with social or cultural differences rather than biological ones.
Sex = male or female explicitly when concerned with biological differences rather than social or cultural ones.

For most people, their sex and gender are the same, or they overlap to such a significant degree that this never results in any sense of dysphoria.

For those who experience a discrepancy between the two - something that has been shown to have biological causes and which can profoundly effect their mental well-being - we have developed treatments that allow them to have more fulfilling lives if they wish.

I'm not clear why you have a problem with this.



P.S. misogyny isn't a biological quantity, nor are either sex immune to it.