Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#41  Postby Spinozasgalt » Nov 04, 2011 2:33 am

Lion IRC wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:
Lion IRC wrote:Anthony Flew. Alister McGrath. Francis Collins.
ubuntuAnyone specifically identifies with these ppl whose conversion from atheism to theism was underpinned strongly by science - not Pascals Wager.


He identified with them for the "de-de-conversion" as far as I can tell. His own reasons for believing are as he says: a pragmatic case for belief supported by important features of Pascal's Wager. He says that science is central to the theoretic case for either theism or atheism, but he's also stated that he doesn't think either one wins out. So he's making a practical case instead.

So on that understanding, science is not central to his belief.


Science is central to everyones beliefs.

God - yes
or
God - no

Sensory detection of evidence is definitely central to anyone who finds themself at either end of the Dawkins 0-7 scale.


I just don't see the centrality of science to his belief. He makes clear that the science underdetermines the evidential reasons we have to believe one or the other and that he bases his belief on his pragmatic reasons. If science was central to his belief, then wouldn't we expect him to be neither theist nor atheist? Afterall, he says that science can't be the determining factor.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#42  Postby Lion IRC » Nov 04, 2011 2:38 am

IIzO wrote:I don't see any pragmatic reasons to believe in god .Theism does nothing special and the justifications for it are unsuccessfull .That ubuntuAnyone dude really needs to do better, a pragmatic keep the most basic belief needed for everyday life what is belief in a god used for ?



A pragmatic reason might be that every created being - we didnt CAUSE ourselves - is subordinate to a Higher Being.

Its not pretty, but it is pragmatic to point out that if you dont love God He does have the prerogative and the capability, as celestial dictator, to beat you in an arm wrestling competion.

Mr Hitchens said he wouldnt "want" it (God) to be true and that the idea of a celestial dictator bothers him.
Well gravity is a celestial dictator. UV radiation is a celestial dictator. Entropy is a celestial dictator. They couldnt give a stuff whether Mr Hitchens "wants" something to be true or not.

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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#43  Postby LucidFlight » Nov 04, 2011 2:46 am

Lion IRC wrote:Its not pretty, but it is pragmatic to point out that if you dont love God He does have the prerogative and the capability, as celestial dictator, to beat you in an arm wrestling competion.

Sounds like a bit of a bully. What would be the point of such a competition?
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#44  Postby IIzO » Nov 04, 2011 2:49 am

Lion IRC wrote:
A pragmatic reason might be that every created being - we didnt CAUSE ourselves - is subordinate to a Higher Being.

A pragmatic believe that humans arn't the cause of themselves ,because it is true in practice ,people get born , and we have good reasons to believe that we are the same .The only higher being is nature .Pragmatism doesn't give a fuck about metaphysics.


Its not pretty, but it is pragmatic to point out that if you dont love God He does have the prerogative and the capability, as celestial dictator, to beat you in an arm wrestling competion.

That doesn't make any sense ,first you'll need to identify a god before you even need to talk about it beating you in an arm wrestlying competition .It's really easy ,if your stuff is purely theoretical the pragmatist doesn't give a fuck about it , we (pragmatist) don't care about "real true reality" ,only about what can be experienced .


Mr Hitchens said he wouldnt "want" it (God) to be true and that the idea of a celestial dictator bothers him.
Well gravity is a celestial dictator. UV radiation is a celestial dictator. Entropy is a celestial dictator. They couldnt give a stuff whether Mr Hitchens "wants" something to be true or not.

Except that your god is theoretical bullshit for the pragmatist ,unless you can provide concrete exemple of god acting the pragmatist doesn't give a shit about it .


Cooperate with the inevitable. Humans are NOT the Boss of the universe. Suck it up!

That is something a pragmatist understands well ,thats why he cares only about practical issues...not some theoretical ones about what the universe actually is .
What you can do to win a pragmatist over is present good practical reasons for him to believe in god ,not only to PRETEND to believe it exists for societal reasons ,but for concrete direct ones where god is potentially an actor .
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#45  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Nov 04, 2011 3:39 am

Who cares if one atheist converted to Christianity? Pretty much everyone on this website de-converted from Christianity at some point, and what does that prove? nothing. But when the former happens, Christians jump up with joy ... 'score 1 for the God, yeeehaaaw!".
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#46  Postby klazmon » Nov 04, 2011 8:57 am

Lion IRC wrote:
What about the science teachers (theists) who teach them? What about the Christian parents who send their children to these schools - where science is core curriculum? Science doesnt hold back Christianity or theism in general and I dont see any indication that science is struggling to break free from the constraints of religion.


The science teachers at the theist based school I went to were a mixture. Some were obviously theist and some indifferent. They didn't make any sort of deal about it as far as the academic lessons were concerned. They did have specific religious studies classes. One thing that school had was good discipline in that the classes were well enough behaved for the most part that proper lessons could actually take place. It's not uncommon for non religious parents these days to send their children to such schools for that reason.

Scientists - atheist or theist - are still moral agents and accountable ethically for the consequences of their work. If any morality-based "belief" is holding back science it's probably a good thing. And atheists/humanists also have beliefs in this regard.


I don't have too much problem with that. It is quite certain that some applications of science are not desirable from a moral point of view. It is even obvious that some scientific investigations can conflict with a reasonable morality. Generally though, moral agents wont always agree on what is moral. This is the case even between theists of the same sect, let alone between theists and unbelievers.

On a related note, it was refreshing to hear an atheist, Peter Millican, refer to the "beliefs" of atheists in his recent debate with William Lane Craig.


Depends on what he means by beliefs. If he means unquestioning acceptance, then no.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#47  Postby Lion IRC » Nov 04, 2011 11:43 pm

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:Who cares if one atheist converted to Christianity? Pretty much everyone on this website de-converted from Christianity at some point, and what does that prove? nothing. But when the former happens, Christians jump up with joy ... 'score 1 for the God, yeeehaaaw!".


Take a look at the reaction of atheists over at that thread. Not exactly yawning indifference.
I dont think ubuntuAnyone converted to Christianity but would certainly jump for joy unashamedly if anyone did. 8-)

Atheists converting. Theists de-converting. The God Delusion. The God Conclusion.....

There is something wonderful about the freedom of thought and will that human beings have.

And practically every formal AvT debate I have seen/heard included an acknowledgment by both sides that this subject is one of the most important questions that has ever occupied human thought.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#48  Postby Rumraket » Nov 05, 2011 12:02 am

Religion coming in the way of science? Oh I don't know, the religious opposition to stem-cell research in America in particular?

Though religion in the sense of theism is not the only opposition to science we sometimes encounter. Other forms are unsubstantiated beliefs, like vitalism. Many opponents of GMO foods and research in genetics oppose it simply on the grounds that "it's unnatural" and that there is some kind of life-force or magic property to living entities that the evil meddling scientists are destroying. Some of that also stems from some kinds of theism, where scientists are accused of "playing god" with nature.

The pope himself, that silly idiot, once told Stephen Hawking not to "look into the moment of creation". Oh the horror... think about it. Why would he say that? What is he afraid Stephen Hawking would find? That god didn't have a hand in it after all? Or, if he did, that Stephen Hawking would see it? What could be bad about that?
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#49  Postby Rumraket » Nov 05, 2011 12:14 am

Lion IRC wrote:And practically every formal AvT debate I have seen/heard included an acknowledgment by both sides that this subject is one of the most important questions that has ever occupied human thought.

Sure, in the sense that if the particular god exists that many of the largest branches of monotheism postulate exist, it would have vast implications for all of us, and we'd want to know about it. But it sort of loses it's importance after a while, once you've been involved in exploring the subject long enough.

Though I also think it's important in the sense that countless billions of people are wasting their lives living in fear and delusion, and I'd want to participate in their emancipation from the thought police state. In that respect, it is very important to me. People's beliefs have consequences. At the moment of typing this sentence, some shitfaced religionut asshole is beating his child because she/he's a homosexual. Or some other case of abuse by nutbags is taking place.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#50  Postby Lion IRC » Nov 05, 2011 6:00 am

Rumraket wrote:
Lion IRC wrote:And practically every formal AvT debate I have seen/heard included an acknowledgment by both sides that this subject is one of the most important questions that has ever occupied human thought.

Sure, in the sense that if the particular god exists that many of the largest branches of monotheism postulate exist, it would have vast implications for all of us, and we'd want to know about it. But it sort of loses it's importance after a while, once you've been involved in exploring the subject long enough.

Though I also think it's important in the sense that countless billions of people are wasting their lives...


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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#51  Postby Rumraket » Nov 05, 2011 8:36 am

Lion IRC wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
Lion IRC wrote:And practically every formal AvT debate I have seen/heard included an acknowledgment by both sides that this subject is one of the most important questions that has ever occupied human thought.

Sure, in the sense that if the particular god exists that many of the largest branches of monotheism postulate exist, it would have vast implications for all of us, and we'd want to know about it. But it sort of loses it's importance after a while, once you've been involved in exploring the subject long enough.

Though I also think it's important in the sense that countless billions of people are wasting their lives...


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You'll let me know when you have an argument to make, right? :roll:
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#52  Postby Bathynomus Giganteus » Nov 05, 2011 4:52 pm

Richard46 wrote:
Bathynomus Giganteus wrote:

He will argue that science is about finding out "how" not finding out "How, not including god". He will also say he accepts naturalism, he just doesn't exclude the possibility of it all being god caused. (Yeah, he's come out with the classic "The universe had a beginning, so must have a cause" and "god is outside of spacetime so is eternal" :doh: .... I hit back with the "big-bounce" theory. )


I would say I do not rule out the possibility either and when he produces the convincing evidence for a God I will accept it.



I used this one, he just claims he has given 5 evidences for god, which were easily countered. His main one being the the universe had a cause. And that cause must have bben outside of the universe. (I remember seeing Hackenslash say somewhere, that everything that exists must exist in the universe, not outside of it. I'll use that against Tim)

Oh, I'd like sonme help with this bit, please. I don't have a clue what the " Borde, Guth, Valenken theorem of cosmology " is. :?
"My points follow the Borde, Guth, Valenken theorem of cosmology which supersedes string theory from my understanding and thus removes reasonable doubt about the universe having an origin (Borde, Guth, Valenken are secular agnostics, not people clinging to faith in the second sense)."
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#53  Postby hackenslash » Nov 05, 2011 8:09 pm

Bathynomus Giganteus wrote:Oh, I'd like sonme help with this bit, please. I don't have a clue what the " Borde, Guth, Valenken theorem of cosmology " is. :?
"My points follow the Borde, Guth, Valenken theorem of cosmology which supersedes string theory from my understanding and thus removes reasonable doubt about the universe having an origin (Borde, Guth, Valenken are secular agnostics, not people clinging to faith in the second sense)."


It stems from the work of Arvind Borde, Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin (note spelling, which tells you what you're up against, since this numpty can't even be bothered to spell correctly the name of one of the scientists he's citing in support of his arse-gravy, which one would have thought was a trivial matter if he'd actually read and understood the material he's citing. Indeed, it demonstrates that he's regurgitating the soiled intellectual nappies of Kalamity Kraig without even bothering to do more than google the fucking argument and not even bother to read and understand that, palsied and rooted in wibble though Kraig's misrepresentation of the material actually is).

Alan Guth is the father of inflationary cosmology. I'll come back to this in a moment, because just the citation of that name fucks up this ignorant shite wholesale when accompanied with his words, which will follow.

Inflationary cosmology tells us that, rather than the expansion of the universe proceeding directly from the big bang, that there is an outward force propelling an early, highly accelerated, expansion phase before settling down into a more sedate expansion rate. The works stems from the fact that, in certain circumstances, gravity can actually be repulsive. With tendrils coming from different areas of cosmology, Guth has managed to address certain problems of the standard big bang model, most notably the horizon problem and the flatness problem, because this initial expansion phase, which lasted the blink of an eye in real terms, meant that the temperature of the universe could equalise even though the cosmos is accelerating at greater than light speed. Information can't travel any faster than this, so the temperature can't equalise without violating the relativistic speed limit, except if the temperature equalised before expansion, then an initial phase of expansion, then settling down to a more sedate pace. This is why we see the degree of isotropy in the WMAP and COBE results, something that would be difficult to explain under the standard big bang model. This is the horizon problem (much simplified and in a nutshell). As for the other, the situation is similar. If expansion had proceeded at the rate we observe since its onset, there should be wrinkles in space. These are not observed, which is inconsistent with the standard model. Inflationary expansion keeps space smooth.

Now, applying these ideas to a broader model than our local cosmic expansion, we can see that this repulsive-gravity inflationary cosmology can actually apply to multiple expansions.

Moving on to BVG theorem, we can take a look at the abstract of the paper:

Borde et al wrote:Many inflating spacetimes are likely to violate the weak energy condition, a key assumption of singularity theorems. Here we offer a simple kinematical argument, requiring no energy condition, that a cosmological model which is inflating -- or just expanding sufficiently fast -- must be incomplete in null and timelike past directions. Specifically, we obtain a bound on the integral of the Hubble parameter over a past-directed timelike or null geodesic. Thus inflationary models require physics other than inflation to describe the past boundary of the inflating region of spacetime.


Inflationary spacetimes are not past-complete - Borde, Guth & Vilenkin - Arxiv 2001

Note the bold bit. They don't say that the universe requires a beginning, or even anything remotely like it. They are saying that inflationary cosmology alone cannot explain some of the issues with the boundary conditions of the cosmos.

Now coming back to Kalamity Kraig's sock-puppet and Guth's own words about the past boundary of our local cosmic expansion, here's a quotation from a radio interview with himself and Neil Turok regarding the big bang constituting the beginning of the universe...

Alan Guth wrote:So far, it's been made to sound, I think for the purposes of simplifying things, that until the cyclic model, all scientists had believed that the big bang was the origin of time itself. That idea is certainly part of the classic theory of the big bang, but it's an idea which I think most cosmologists have not taken seriously in quite a while. That is, the idea that there's something that happened before what we call the big bang has been around for quite a number of years... In what I would regard as the conventional version of the inflationary theory, the Big Bang was also not in that theory the origin of everything but rather one had a very long period of this exponential expansion of the universe, which is what inflation means, and, at different points, different pieces of this inflating universe had stopped inflating and become what I sometimes call pocket universes.


He goes on to say:

Alan Guth wrote:What we call the Big Bang was almost certainly not the actual origin of time in either of the theories that we’re talking about. … The main difference I think [between the inflationary theory and Neil and Paul's theory] is the answer to the question of what is it that made the universe large and smooth everything out. … The inflationary version of cosmology is not cyclic. … It goes on literally forever with new universes being created in other places. The inflationary prediction is that our region of the universe would become ultimately empty and void but meanwhile other universes would sprout out in other places in this multiverse.


Source, an interesting radio interview with Alan Guth and Neil Turok.

As you can see, Guth doesn't actually agree with Kraig's ignorant assertion. Some fucking philospher of time he is, the lying, weaselly little cunt.

Anyway, hope some of that helps.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#54  Postby Made of Stars » Nov 05, 2011 8:16 pm

BG, you could invite your little friend here to play.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#55  Postby The_Metatron » Nov 05, 2011 9:40 pm

Lion IRC wrote:
IIzO wrote:I don't see any pragmatic reasons to believe in god .Theism does nothing special and the justifications for it are unsuccessfull .That ubuntuAnyone dude really needs to do better, a pragmatic keep the most basic belief needed for everyday life what is belief in a god used for ?

A pragmatic reason might be that every created being - we didnt CAUSE ourselves - is subordinate to a Higher Being.

Its not pretty, but it is pragmatic to point out that if you dont love God He does have the prerogative and the capability, as celestial dictator, to beat you in an arm wrestling competion.

Mr Hitchens said he wouldnt "want" it (God) to be true and that the idea of a celestial dictator bothers him.
Well gravity is a celestial dictator. UV radiation is a celestial dictator. Entropy is a celestial dictator. They couldnt give a stuff whether Mr Hitchens "wants" something to be true or not.

Cooperate with the inevitable. Humans are NOT the Boss of the universe. Suck it up!

And, neither is your imaginary sky spook.

Suck that up.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#56  Postby hackenslash » Nov 05, 2011 10:38 pm

Oh, I meant to add: BVG Theorem doesn't remotely supersede M-Theory. It provides an alternative cosmology, and is just one of several. The cosmology arising from M-Theory is the one described by Turok and Steinhardt. A lovely exposition of that topic can be found here, penned by the mighty Blue Flutterby.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#57  Postby Moonwatcher » Nov 09, 2011 5:53 pm

Bathynomus Giganteus wrote:I recently had a xtian say to me that my "belief" (sic) in atheism restricts my worldview to naturalism. Yet his belief in god means he is more open minded, because it allows the possibility of a supernatural answer.
I know that you can't just add any old crap to a hypothesis without good evidence supporting it.

So, I'm after some examples of where a scientists personal beliefs in god/myths/woo/monsters etc has actually prevented him/her from advancing his/her field of study.


We are dealing with a negative here. "Prove that the reason a biologist never did any breakthrough work is because he's a Creationist rather than because he's not particularly a great biologist."

Still, the very fact that they are ignoring and sifting through evidence and won't accept something there is an overwhelming mountain of evidence for because its not what they've already decided they believe is a pretty good example.

I mean, their basis for ignoring all the evidence is their belief in their god which they have decided they cannot hold onto if they accept cetain facts as facts. There's an example of belief in a god holding them back as scientists because they insist upon thinking as religious believers rather than as scientists.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#58  Postby Moonwatcher » Nov 09, 2011 6:00 pm

Lion IRC wrote:
IIzO wrote:I don't see any pragmatic reasons to believe in god .Theism does nothing special and the justifications for it are unsuccessfull .That ubuntuAnyone dude really needs to do better, a pragmatic keep the most basic belief needed for everyday life what is belief in a god used for ?



A pragmatic reason might be that every created being - we didnt CAUSE ourselves - is subordinate to a Higher Being.

Its not pretty, but it is pragmatic to point out that if you dont love God He does have the prerogative and the capability, as celestial dictator, to beat you in an arm wrestling competion.

Mr Hitchens said he wouldnt "want" it (God) to be true and that the idea of a celestial dictator bothers him.
Well gravity is a celestial dictator. UV radiation is a celestial dictator. Entropy is a celestial dictator. They couldnt give a stuff whether Mr Hitchens "wants" something to be true or not.

Cooperate with the inevitable. Humans are NOT the Boss of the universe. Suck it up!


There is evidence that gravity and UV radiation exist, a lot of evidence. Completely different from claiming the existence of a god and even further from claiming the existence of a specific mythical god.
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#59  Postby Moonwatcher » Nov 09, 2011 6:06 pm

[quote="Lion IRC";p="1054802]
A pragmatic reason might be that every created being - we didnt CAUSE ourselves - is subordinate to a Higher Being.
[/quote]

Who were God's parents?
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Re: Examples of Beliefs holding back Science.

#60  Postby surreptitious57 » Nov 09, 2011 6:32 pm

hackenslash wrote:
Well, the most obvious examples are found in expositions of a heliocentric cosmos. Copernicus presented his work as a model for predicting the motions of celestial bodies only, not as an accurate picture of reality, precisely because he was concerned about charges of heresy.

Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for going on step further and asserting it as truth. The church was perfectly happy to accept a heliocentric model as a basis for the purposes of prediction, but asserting it as truth strays into heresy, and indeed it was this that led to the trial of Galileo. Galileo, of course, submitted to the will of the church and recanted position in this regard. Essentially, it's the distinction between a predictive model and a metaphysical statement, as susu.exp has pointed out on occasion.

It should be noted that some of the blame for this is laid at the feet of Osimander, who is thought to have edited the work somewhat when he took control of the publication of Copernicus' work while Copernicus was on his deathbed


A BBC 4 documentary this year
showed the Church in Poland unveiling
a plaque commemorating Copernicus and
what a contrast that was to how it regarded him
during his lifetime. Or would have if they knew since
he was too fearful of the consequences. I do not think we
should be too hard on Galileo. What would you do in his position
Newton spent over twenty years experimenting with alchemy in order to
validate the existence of God by turning metal into gold. All that maths and
physics was just a distraction to pass the time from what he was really interested
in. Well almost. But again let us not be too hard on the great man. Hindsight is after
all a wonderful thing. Back in his day it was perfectly acceptable for scientists to be theists too
But just imagine what more he could have discovered if he had not been so seduced by the metaphysical
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