God causing the universe is logically impossible?

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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#501  Postby Mick » Aug 25, 2013 4:25 pm

lobawad wrote:
Mick wrote:
lobawad wrote:
Mick wrote:

No, I am not asking anything like that. The hole and the peg are two distinct entities. My question is more like asking why the leg is round, but the obvious answer here is in reference to our intentionality. But a more thorough answer would talk explain why the peg was able to be round in the first place, and what makes it a peg.

As I mentioned earlier, the attempt here just pushes a question back. Why those properties? Why those patterns? Your attempts are futile unless you abandon the stress on mechanism alone.

I will post again later tonite or tomorrow.


Graham is answering what you are asking. He is responding by pointing out physical compossibilities.


I am afraid not. He roots his explanation in their properties. But I am asking this: why those properties? And why those "fittings"? Forms explain why matter acts this way or that way, and it explains its operations. But in the absence of form, that it acts some way or possesses some property, or is restricted and capable of acting in such-and -such way remains elusive. You can only push the question back; you can't answer it in mechanistic terms alone.

I am not entirely sure what he has in mind with his reference to geometry. But he needs to be careful not to make this a matter of necessitation. Otherwise, he risks no recourse in an explanation for the diversity of things.


I have already explained: physical compossibility. The properties Graham references arise from "fittings", the fittings from properties, all the way down to whatever the "stuff" of it all might be. Nothing more than some non-symmetry at some deep or deepest level is necessary in this model. You look for metaphysical answers to things and you would deny that the fittings of things must be compossible?



Physical compossiblilty only gets you as far as them being physically consistent together; it does not tell us why they are together. Look up the meaning of the word 'compossible'
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#502  Postby Mick » Aug 25, 2013 4:33 pm

OlivierK wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Mick wrote:That is useless to me. Give me a quote from a medical dictionary or a biology dictionary, or anything of that sort, and show me that it gives your understanding of deformity. A simple search for that online supports my ideas, not yours.


Suddenly we want others to give us quotes from larger bodies of work.

:nod:

And besides that, what Mick is asking for is easily found. Here are the definitions of deformity from the first two medical dictionaries on Google:

deformity /de·form·i·ty/ (dĕ-for´mĭ-te) distortion of any part or of the body in general.

Source: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio ... /deformity

Any malformation or distortion of part of the body. Deformities may be congenital (present from birth), or they may be acquired as a result of injury, disorder, or disuse. Most congenital deformities are relatively rare. Among the more common are club-foot ( talipes) and cleft lip and palate. Injuries that can cause deformity include burns, torn muscles, and broken bones. Disorders that may cause deformity include nerve problems, some deficiencies, such as rickets, and Paget’s disease of the bone. Disuse of a part of the body can lead to deformity through stiffening and contracture of unused muscles or tendons. Many deformities can be corrected by orthopaedic techniques, plastic surgery, or exercise.

Source: http://meddict.org/term/deformity/

They are simply descriptive definitions that make no reference to values or ends.



You're muddling issues.

My initial claim was that the sciences cannot support claims such as 'x is deformed', but 'here I mean deformity in its prescriptive sense. The sense wherein we would say that something went wrong. I am we'll aware that the sciences have a descriptive sense, and I already articulated that sense earlier. I also criticized it. That they have a descriptive sense makes sense though, since they are descriptive sciences. My point remains: sciences cannot tell us that something is wrong or not working properly, since that implies natures or ends. On evolutionary theory, one without ends and forms, there is no proper way of being. All we can do is make statistical generalizations or intercalate subjective values.

My debate with hackenslash is in regards to his silly ideas about deformity within evolutionary science. His idea is so weird I asked for support from a medical dictionary, and he failed to do that. That his definition escaped criticism from all of you speaks levels about how willing you guys are to be critical towards each other.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#503  Postby lobawad » Aug 25, 2013 4:36 pm

Mick wrote:
lobawad wrote:
Mick wrote:
lobawad wrote:

Graham is answering what you are asking. He is responding by pointing out physical compossibilities.


I am afraid not. He roots his explanation in their properties. But I am asking this: why those properties? And why those "fittings"? Forms explain why matter acts this way or that way, and it explains its operations. But in the absence of form, that it acts some way or possesses some property, or is restricted and capable of acting in such-and -such way remains elusive. You can only push the question back; you can't answer it in mechanistic terms alone.

I am not entirely sure what he has in mind with his reference to geometry. But he needs to be careful not to make this a matter of necessitation. Otherwise, he risks no recourse in an explanation for the diversity of things.


I have already explained: physical compossibility. The properties Graham references arise from "fittings", the fittings from properties, all the way down to whatever the "stuff" of it all might be. Nothing more than some non-symmetry at some deep or deepest level is necessary in this model. You look for metaphysical answers to things and you would deny that the fittings of things must be compossible?



Physical compossiblilty only gets you as far as them being physically consistent together; it does not tell us why they are together.


Sufficient for Graham's model is a compossible state of things from an intial random or chaotic state.

Look up the meaning of the word 'compossible'


You have no idea how funny that is, do you.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#504  Postby Fallible » Aug 25, 2013 4:36 pm

You don't get out of Theism and Philosophy much, do you, Mick.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#505  Postby lobawad » Aug 25, 2013 4:38 pm

Fallible wrote:You don't get out of Theism and Philosophy much, do you, Mick.


Getting in to theism and philosophy rather than tagging along behind apologists would do Mick a great deal of good, too.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#506  Postby Fallible » Aug 25, 2013 4:40 pm

:cheers:
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#507  Postby Mick » Aug 25, 2013 4:47 pm

OlivierK wrote:And history has borne that out: the theory of forms has zero predictive power about the behaviour of matter (Mick: feel free to provide an example of how the theory of forms allows us to successfully predict a material behaviour that is in any way different to what we would expect from biochemistry, physics, etc).

There's a reason that the theory of forms didn't survive the scientific revolution: under science, ideas that are demonstrably useless or wrong are disposed of. The theory of forms makes testable claims about the behaviour of matter, none of which are demonstrable. It's a falsifiable theory that's been falsified. It's no better an explanation for the behaviour of matter than phlogiston, or prayer.


I've already explained the explanatory benefits of forms. I've explained what we would expect to see if they existed, and I explained why you and others cannot equally explain what they can.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#508  Postby John P. M. » Aug 25, 2013 4:51 pm

I wonder what size and shape the breasts of the prescriptive form of 'woman' are, and should I encounter a woman who perfectly fulfills the prescriptive form, would I have to agree that they were the perfect size and shape?

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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#509  Postby Mick » Aug 25, 2013 5:05 pm

lobawad wrote:
Mick wrote:
lobawad wrote:
Mick wrote:

I am afraid not. He roots his explanation in their properties. But I am asking this: why those properties? And why those "fittings"? Forms explain why matter acts this way or that way, and it explains its operations. But in the absence of form, that it acts some way or possesses some property, or is restricted and capable of acting in such-and -such way remains elusive. You can only push the question back; you can't answer it in mechanistic terms alone.

I am not entirely sure what he has in mind with his reference to geometry. But he needs to be careful not to make this a matter of necessitation. Otherwise, he risks no recourse in an explanation for the diversity of things.


I have already explained: physical compossibility. The properties Graham references arise from "fittings", the fittings from properties, all the way down to whatever the "stuff" of it all might be. Nothing more than some non-symmetry at some deep or deepest level is necessary in this model. You look for metaphysical answers to things and you would deny that the fittings of things must be compossible?



Physical compossiblilty only gets you as far as them being physically consistent together; it does not tell us why they are together.


Sufficient for Graham's model is a compossible state of things from an intial random or chaotic state.

Look up the meaning of the word 'compossible'


You have no idea how funny that is, do you.



What is funny is your latest response to me in our debate.


In any case, your recourse there is chance. Awesome. And if I were to ask why they have those compossible properties in the first place, and why they are able to keep those properties, and why certain "fittings" over others, would you also lend recourse to chance? It is not even clear to me how it is that they can have any property without form.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#510  Postby Mick » Aug 25, 2013 5:06 pm

Fallible wrote:You don't get out of Theism and Philosophy much, do you, Mick.



No, not really. I am updating my math though.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#511  Postby lobawad » Aug 25, 2013 5:35 pm

Mick wrote:
lobawad wrote:
Mick wrote:
lobawad wrote:

I have already explained: physical compossibility. The properties Graham references arise from "fittings", the fittings from properties, all the way down to whatever the "stuff" of it all might be. Nothing more than some non-symmetry at some deep or deepest level is necessary in this model. You look for metaphysical answers to things and you would deny that the fittings of things must be compossible?



Physical compossiblilty only gets you as far as them being physically consistent together; it does not tell us why they are together.


Sufficient for Graham's model is a compossible state of things from an intial random or chaotic state.

Look up the meaning of the word 'compossible'


You have no idea how funny that is, do you.



What is funny is your latest response to me in our debate.


In any case, your recourse there is chance. Awesome. And if I were to ask why they have those compossible properties in the first place, and why they are able to keep those properties, and why certain "fittings" over others, would you also lend recourse to chance? It is not even clear to me how it is that they can have any property without form.


You're looking at things backwardly. Why not together?
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#512  Postby John P. M. » Aug 25, 2013 5:42 pm

If I hazard to return the question and ask 'Why these forms over others', what would the answer be?
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#513  Postby OlivierK » Aug 25, 2013 9:16 pm

Mick wrote:
OlivierK wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Mick wrote:That is useless to me. Give me a quote from a medical dictionary or a biology dictionary, or anything of that sort, and show me that it gives your understanding of deformity. A simple search for that online supports my ideas, not yours.


Suddenly we want others to give us quotes from larger bodies of work.

:nod:

And besides that, what Mick is asking for is easily found. Here are the definitions of deformity from the first two medical dictionaries on Google:

deformity /de·form·i·ty/ (dĕ-for´mĭ-te) distortion of any part or of the body in general.

Source: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio ... /deformity

Any malformation or distortion of part of the body. Deformities may be congenital (present from birth), or they may be acquired as a result of injury, disorder, or disuse. Most congenital deformities are relatively rare. Among the more common are club-foot ( talipes) and cleft lip and palate. Injuries that can cause deformity include burns, torn muscles, and broken bones. Disorders that may cause deformity include nerve problems, some deficiencies, such as rickets, and Paget’s disease of the bone. Disuse of a part of the body can lead to deformity through stiffening and contracture of unused muscles or tendons. Many deformities can be corrected by orthopaedic techniques, plastic surgery, or exercise.

Source: http://meddict.org/term/deformity/

They are simply descriptive definitions that make no reference to values or ends.

You're muddling issues.

My initial claim was that the sciences cannot support claims such as 'x is deformed', but 'here I mean deformity in its prescriptive sense. The sense wherein we would say that something went wrong. I am we'll aware that the sciences have a descriptive sense, and I already articulated that sense earlier. I also criticized it.

And you said that medical dictionaries supported your (prescriptive, end-driven, value-judging) ideas:
Mick wrote:That is useless to me. Give me a quote from a medical dictionary or a biology dictionary, or anything of that sort, and show me that it gives your understanding of deformity. A simple search for that online supports my ideas, not yours.

They don't.

Mick wrote:That they have a descriptive sense makes sense though, since they are descriptive sciences. My point remains: sciences cannot tell us that something is wrong or not working properly, since that implies natures or ends. On evolutionary theory, one without ends and forms, there is no proper way of being. All we can do is make statistical generalizations or intercalate subjective values.

Correct, there no "proper" way of being. Fuck me, Mick, if you just grasped that simple fucking fact, you could stop spending so much effort chiding teh gays for their innate impropriety. :naughty:

Mick wrote:My debate with hackenslash is in regards to his silly ideas about deformity within evolutionary science. His idea is so weird I asked for support from a medical dictionary, and he failed to do that. That his definition escaped criticism from all of you speaks levels about how willing you guys are to be critical towards each other.

Hack said that survival value is the value adopted by science (in this case, by medicine), as a yardstick to define disease and such (correct me if I'm wrong, hack). That seems pretty non-controversial.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#514  Postby OlivierK » Aug 25, 2013 9:18 pm

Mick wrote:
OlivierK wrote:And history has borne that out: the theory of forms has zero predictive power about the behaviour of matter (Mick: feel free to provide an example of how the theory of forms allows us to successfully predict a material behaviour that is in any way different to what we would expect from biochemistry, physics, etc).

There's a reason that the theory of forms didn't survive the scientific revolution: under science, ideas that are demonstrably useless or wrong are disposed of. The theory of forms makes testable claims about the behaviour of matter, none of which are demonstrable. It's a falsifiable theory that's been falsified. It's no better an explanation for the behaviour of matter than phlogiston, or prayer.


I've already explained the explanatory benefits of forms. I've explained what we would expect to see if they existed, and I explained why you and others cannot equally explain what they can.

Link? Or just restate the example, because I don't remember you doing that.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#515  Postby hackenslash » Aug 25, 2013 10:18 pm

lobawad wrote:Getting in to theism and philosophy rather than tagging along behind apologists would do Mick a great deal of good, too.


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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#516  Postby hackenslash » Aug 25, 2013 10:19 pm

OlivierK wrote:Hack said that survival value is the value adopted by science (in this case, by medicine), as a yardstick to define disease and such (correct me if I'm wrong, hack). That seems pretty non-controversial.


That's pretty much what I said (though not just medicine, but the whole of evolutionary biology), and it has far greater explanatory power than this Platonic bollocks.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#517  Postby Rumraket » Aug 26, 2013 5:25 am

There is no such thing as a way things should be intrinsically. To state that some things have a form in this way is to make shit up to begin with. The very act of making it up is begging the question. Why would that be the correct form for the entity in question and not some other among infinite possibilities? There is no answer to this question, there can't be an answer to this question that doesn't presuppose the proposition. You'd have to erect forms on another foundation, but then you'd be question-begging that foundation, and you're then at an infinite regress of justifications. Mick's stuck wondering why the solar system doesn't comply to his perfect platonic shapes, having presupposed that they should. He now tells us this 'explains' something. How could it? He says he can tell us how some particular thing doesn't conform to it's true form, but he can't even tell you what that true form is. If he does, he's begging the question.

This forms bullshit is so utterly useless it boggles the mind. This is what is meant by bad philosophy. This is why people dismiss metaphysics around here. It's the single best example I've seen yet of why it is we deride metaphysics, this bullshit about forms.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#518  Postby hackenslash » Aug 26, 2013 10:59 am

Rumraket wrote:This is why people dismiss metaphysics around here. It's the single best example I've seen yet of why it is we deride metaphysics, this bullshit about forms.


Yup. All metaphysics is like this, made-up shit about things are or should be. Useless, the entire enterprise.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#519  Postby Shrunk » Aug 26, 2013 12:42 pm

hackenslash wrote:Yup. All metaphysics is like this, made-up shit about things are or should be. Useless, the entire enterprise.


I wouldn't say "useless". It's as useful as poetry or music, neither of which I would want to be without. Personally, I don't think I would miss metaphysics much if it disappeared, but I can appreciate that there are many for whom it is just as important.

The difference is no one expects a poem to determine the number of legs a giraffe will have.
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Re: God causing the universe is logically impossible?

#520  Postby hackenslash » Aug 26, 2013 12:50 pm

That's a reasonable point, though I'm not sure it's really as useful as poetry or music. Point taken, though.
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