If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

How would that change your life ?

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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#181  Postby Arnold Layne » Dec 17, 2013 10:47 am

I'm not going to answer each and every response to my previous post, but just add a little.

Whilst I agree with you wholeheartedly, Cali, I was brought up in a religious household, and I'm the only one who is now an atheist. You get to a point of living with religion, but having no belief in God. I broke out of the indoctrination, but still it affects me. I was brought up (to a point) CofE. I am grateful to my father for having insisted no children would be brought up Catholic before he would marry my mother. My Mum is 91 now, but she still believes in Adam and Eve and all that. We don't discuss it! She said she watched The Wonders of The Universe with my Dad, who is 94. She thought it was fantastic and interesting, but she doesn't believe a word of it. It's that sort of indoctrination that is unbreakable. My Dad, on the other hand, has a sort of religion which embraces the more recent scientific discoveries, but does not lose God. My sister, who is a chemistry graduate, has similar beliefs to my father, as far as I can tell, but I know they have discussed their differences.

That's why I say that all believers of any faith have their own special beliefs and their own special relationship with their god. I remember some survey (don't ask me to find it) where believers were asked who was the most likely person they knew who would go to heaven. Most of the respondents said it was themselves. That's because they had their relationship with their god and their lives were being run in the correct way, and that was self-fulfilling.

So, to get back more to the point, everyone seems to have a different idea of The Bible and any other scripture. Their ideas range from taking it all literally, to ignoring it completely. The religious bodies would like to include all Christians under as few categories as possible to keep them together (safety in numbers), but they miss the point that everyone has slightly different beliefs. Their own god is a personal god. Even Mick, who seems to get his ideas of what his god is from philosophers of the past, has his own idea and personal god. That's why God is a god of the head, a god of one's own imagination. And when you realise that it is the case, and that there is no evidence for a god, you either reject god as existing, or you try to justify your belief by believing in the metaphysical realm. Some go to great extremes to justify it, whereas others go to great extremes to try to reject the metaphysical claims.

One thing I do know (rather than the above waffle) is that, while it's interesting to hear other people's point of view, the people that change late in life are as rare as hen's teeth. I only know of one here, for example.

OK, so the above is just a small dump of my thoughts. It's not meant to be a literary work of art open to critique. But I do like to discuss these things from time to time, rather than just stare open-mouthed at what some people do believe! :)
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#182  Postby Coroama » Dec 17, 2013 11:09 am

Matthew Shute wrote:
If I was somehow convinced that reality was a totalitarian dictatorship, eternal, unchallengeable, metaphysical and inescapable... my obvious reaction would be despair and a possible descent into insanity thereafter. .


Thats why God does not show himself to us. That way, you are free to decide what you want in your life.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#183  Postby chairman bill » Dec 17, 2013 11:15 am

Coroama wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
If I was somehow convinced that reality was a totalitarian dictatorship, eternal, unchallengeable, metaphysical and inescapable... my obvious reaction would be despair and a possible descent into insanity thereafter. .


Thats why God does not show himself to us. That way, you are free to decide what you want in your life.


Ah! Suddenly all is clear. Believers are sheeple, happy to be subject to totalitarian dictatorship, whilst the rest of us seek Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!

God is a Nazi.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#184  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 17, 2013 11:20 am

Coroama wrote:
Matthew Shute wrote:
If I was somehow convinced that reality was a totalitarian dictatorship, eternal, unchallengeable, metaphysical and inescapable... my obvious reaction would be despair and a possible descent into insanity thereafter. .


Thats why God does not show himself to us.

But he doesn't show himself to us.

Coroama wrote:That way, you are free to decide what you want in your life.

You're not free to decide if your god is omniscient.
Nor are you free to choose if you get punished for choosing one of the two options.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#185  Postby Panderos » Dec 17, 2013 11:56 am

Mick wrote:Not only this, but the whole OP is fraught with difficulties in regards to reference. From the earlier discussion, there are substantial differences of view about what Christianity amounts to and what its truth would entail. However, if that is the case, it does not even look like we are referring to the same thing when each of us answer the question of the OP.

Thommo wrote:The only way to answer the question "what if God proved he existed?" at all is to import some set of assumptions as to what "God" is, telling us that you think your assumptions are the correct ones is no more fundamentally correct than us telling you we think ours are. An inability from either side to even consider that ones assumptions are wrong won't make this conversation progress any better.

Rather than arguing over whether God is good or not or other such theological matters which obviously will get us nowhere, we could simply answer what we'd do in either case.

If it turned out there was a God and He was Good then I'd ________ (presumably this one would show you how all those apparently bad things were actually for the greater good or something)
If it turned out there was a God and he was the vengeful Bible guy then I'd __________
(Add more incarnations and responses where necessary).

I'm sticking to my original answer in both cases: shit my pants and hope I can recant fast enough. I think even Mick would accept that even a 'good' God does not guarantee a good outcome for all people. Hence the rationality of the pants-shitting and turbo-recanting. I certainly wouldn't be calling him a cunt. At least not until I was convinced my ploy had failed and my tenure in hell was for the long-term, at which point I guess it would make no difference.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#186  Postby Coroama » Dec 17, 2013 12:11 pm

Reeve wrote:I would of course align myself with Satan and his hordes of demons. All of the best stuff in life is from that side of the road. :mrgreen:


Like kill, rape, steal, lie, pedofile, etc. ?
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#187  Postby Coroama » Dec 17, 2013 12:15 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:how do you reconcile being a god of love with the genocide of the Amalakites?


I don't think you need to wait God to appear, to answer you this question.

http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=how+do+you+reco ... lakites%3F
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#188  Postby Newmark » Dec 17, 2013 12:16 pm

Coroama wrote:
Reeve wrote:I would of course align myself with Satan and his hordes of demons. All of the best stuff in life is from that side of the road. :mrgreen:


Like kill, rape, steal, lie, pedofile, etc. ?


Yeah Reeve, listen to Corama. All the best stuff in life comes from being religious, like kill, rape, steal (if you follow the old testament), lie, pedofile(sic) (if you a ranking catholic).
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#189  Postby redwhine » Dec 17, 2013 12:17 pm

Coroama wrote:
Reeve wrote:I would of course align myself with Satan and his hordes of demons. All of the best stuff in life is from that side of the road. :mrgreen:


Like kill, rape, steal, lie, pedofile, etc. ?

Pedofile (sic) is not a verb.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#190  Postby archibald » Dec 17, 2013 12:17 pm

Coroama wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:how do you reconcile being a god of love with the genocide of the Amalakites?


I don't think you need to wait God to appear, to answer you this question.

http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=how+do+you+reco ... lakites%3F


Oh my fuck. What a load of apologetic turd. Take the blinkers off, mate, that's all I can suggest.

And don't ask me to get into it in great detail. Done it a hundred times. As have many here. I doubt you'll ever understand what is being said, maybe partly because you find the way it's said offensive. Which I grant you it often is, unfortunately. When I first came to atheism websites, the phrase 'Jesus: love me or burn' sounded very offensive, and gradually I realised it was true as well.

Good luck to you and all who sail in the HMS delusion with you. Sorry for the offence.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#191  Postby Coroama » Dec 17, 2013 12:44 pm

Mick wrote:Look, guys, IF God were proven to exist in such a way, then not only are you unworthy of his love, or even the slightest attention, but he just is love and wisdom itself.


We are not worth of his love anyway, independently, if he would show up,or not. Since according to the bible, we are all sinners, while God is perfect, holy, loving and just. What we all deserve, is hell. But its his mercy that makes him forgive the ones, that come to him, and repent, and ask for forgiveness of sins.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#192  Postby Regina » Dec 17, 2013 12:49 pm

redwhine wrote:
Coroama wrote:
Reeve wrote:I would of course align myself with Satan and his hordes of demons. All of the best stuff in life is from that side of the road. :mrgreen:


Like kill, rape, steal, lie, pedofile, etc. ?

Pedofile (sic) is not a verb.

Maybe it's a novel filing system :dunno:
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#193  Postby Newmark » Dec 17, 2013 12:49 pm

Coroama wrote:
Mick wrote:Look, guys, IF God were proven to exist in such a way, then not only are you unworthy of his love, or even the slightest attention, but he just is love and wisdom itself.


We are not worth of his love anyway, independently, if he would show up,or not. Since according to the bible, we are all sinners, while God is perfect, holy, loving and just. What we all deserve, is hell. But its his mercy that makes him forgive the ones, that come to him, and repent, and ask for forgiveness of sins.


Yup, every newborn child has committed untold awful crimes and certainly deserves eternal punishment for that. And the best thing is that it doesn't matter what additional sins you commit, all you need to do to be saved is to make a human sacrifice (or at least accept one made on your behalf)!
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#194  Postby archibald » Dec 17, 2013 12:51 pm

Coroama wrote:
Mick wrote:Look, guys, IF God were proven to exist in such a way, then not only are you unworthy of his love, or even the slightest attention, but he just is love and wisdom itself.


We are not worth of his love anyway, independently, if he would show up,or not. Since according to the bible, we are all sinners, while God is perfect, holy, loving and just. What we all deserve, is hell. But its his mercy that makes him forgive the ones, that come to him, and repent, and ask for forgiveness of sins.


Wait wait. I gotta take issue with that.

God is merciful/loving/kind when punishing for eternity, on the basis of a short existence, where 'sinner' is the default starting position and during which short existence he conceals himself so that the sinner can come to a decision? Come again?

Love. My arse. It's the opposite.

I'll tell you now, gimme a loving human parent any day.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#195  Postby Fenrir » Dec 17, 2013 12:55 pm

Coroama wrote:
Reeve wrote:I would of course align myself with Satan and his hordes of demons. All of the best stuff in life is from that side of the road. :mrgreen:


Like kill, rape, steal, lie, pedofile, etc. ?


Lets have a quick look at what your favourite novel has to say about these things shall we?

kill

Deuteronomy 17:12 wrote:Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.


rape

Deuteronomy 20:13-14 wrote:But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.


Steal

Exodus 3:21-22...35-36 wrote: And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty. But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians...The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. The Lord had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.


Luke 19:29-34 wrote:As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?’ say, ‘The Lord needs it.’” Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, “Why are you untying the colt?” They replied, “The Lord needs it.”


lie

Matthew 21:21-22 wrote:And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.


pedofile (?)

Judges 21:11 wrote:And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh


The bible does, however, condemn hypocrisy. Coroama, can you spell hypocrisy?
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#196  Postby archibald » Dec 17, 2013 12:56 pm

Coroama wrote:

We are not worth of his love anyway,



This is called creating a problem and then taking credit for trying to solve it.

Religions are very good at this sort of thing. Abrahamic ones especially.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#197  Postby igorfrankensteen » Dec 17, 2013 12:58 pm

I would do the same thing I did when I discovered that the United States was not controlled by the idealists who pretend to believe in the actual words of the Declaration of Independence, and the U.S. Constitution. I would find out how to live in a way that allowed me to be as happy as I can, in spite of the people in control of everything clearly being all about themselves.

Kind of a "Duh!" question, if you ask me. The religious people who ask it, usually smirk and pat themselves on the back, imagining that the rest of us will fall on our knees and tell THEM how wise THEY have been lo these many years. Since that would be a bit like praising a slave for brown-nosing the massah, I suspect they would not find the results they hope for nearly as rewarding as they imagine they would be.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#198  Postby BlackBart » Dec 17, 2013 1:00 pm

Coroama wrote: What we all deserve, is hell.


Er, you have no fucking idea what I do or do not deserve. You can fucking speak for yourself. :coffee:
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#199  Postby Goldenmane » Dec 17, 2013 1:09 pm

Coroama wrote:
Reeve wrote:I would of course align myself with Satan and his hordes of demons. All of the best stuff in life is from that side of the road. :mrgreen:


Like kill, rape, steal, lie, pedofile, etc. ?


Your god - the Biblical YHVH - is the one who advocates all those things, despite what it pretends to in the various versions of the purported Commandments.

At no point in your fucking scriptures does Satan advocate any of those things.

Feel free to demonstrate otherwise, if you can.
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Re: If God would provide conclusive proof of his existence......

#200  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 17, 2013 2:32 pm

Coroama wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:how do you reconcile being a god of love with the genocide of the Amalakites?


I don't think you need to wait God to appear, to answer you this question.

http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=how+do+you+reco ... lakites%3F


Oh look, the usual apologetic horseshit we see from supernaturalists. I'll tell you why it's all horseshit. Because, wait for it, it's supernaturalists who assert that their magic man is purportedly "all-powerful", and by definition, this means that their magic man is perfectly capable of altering human behaviour without resorting to genocide. As a corollary, this immediately raises the question, why did Magic Man not choose the available murder-free option?

Of course, the relevant passages make eminent sense, if you treat them as nothing more than an exercise in after-the-fact self-justification, on the part of a victorious tribe of bloodthirsty nomads, engaging in historical revisionism to paint themselves in a good light following a spell of mass slaughter. But they make no sense whatsoever even in the discoursively duplicitous world of supernaturalist apologetics, which alll too frequently involves making shit up on a grand scale, in order to pretend that supernaturalists have "answers" to awkward questions such as this.

Basically, we're left with two options here. One, Magic Man is capable of altering human behaviour, which means that his choice of the genocide option instead of behaviour modification, was utterly reprehensible. Two, Magic Man isn't capable of altering human behaviour, which means that omnipotence goes flying out of the window on the back of a winged pig. No amount of trying to conjure apologetic spells will hand-wave this away. Either way, supernaturalist assertions on this subject are torpedoed below the waterline, and are torpedoed below the waterline by other supernaturalist assertions.

The predictable apologetic response about us humans purportedly being given a free hand in the decisions, without interference from on high, is null and void also, because there are numerous instance in the mythology in question where Magic Man does interfere with people on a grand scale, in order to force them to arrive at the desireed decision. The whole business of fucking about with Job being a classic example, an example moreover of fucking about with someone who already accepts Magic Man as his god, whilst Magic Man engages in a spot of cosmic roulette with his rival.

The more I examine this crock of shit, the more bizarre I find the treatment thereof as fact by supposedly grown up adult human beings.

Coroama wrote:We are not worth of his love anyway, independently, if he would show up,or not. Since according to the bible, we are all sinners, while God is perfect, holy, loving and just. What we all deserve, is hell. But its his mercy that makes him forgive the ones, that come to him, and repent, and ask for forgiveness of sins.


Yawn, yawn, yawn, boring preachy bollocks. Until real evidence for this entity is forthcoming, the above is nothing more than speculation and fantasy. Not to mention hideously inhuman speculation and fantasy.
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