Is religion good for children

Scarlett · **#41** by **Scarlett** » Feb 26, 2014 10:04 am

Fenrir wrote:I'd agree that exposing kids to critical thinking is important. I wouldn't agree that exposure to religion or any particular non-reality based nonsense is required to do so.

Religion is a handy example kids will hear about and be targeted by, but that doesn't mean it is required to develop critical thinking practices. Critical thinking is a method which, once developed, should be independent of the particular claim being considered.

Spawn has got so used to my response to any claim (whether I agree or not) being "why do you think that" that he's started including that information with the claim and not waiting for the question. If I throw in an assertion he knows the game and will press for clarification. Hopefully that inoculates against all spurious claims and not just specific examples he has encountered before.

Gets him into trouble at school though.

Tia had never heard of god or jesus till she went to school, and her life was none the poorer for that. By that time, when she was coming home asking questions about god and religion she was very used to me firing it back at her with "What do you think?". Of course she came to the conclusion it's all bull. All by herself. I would still have preferred she wasn't subjected to any of it, it is completely unnecessary, but that is an impossibility.

One of the things I taught her from very tiny is "What do we need to decide if something is true or not?", of course the answer is 'evidence', it was hilarious when my granddaughter, one year older than Tia replied "The internet!"

Loren Michael · **#42** by **Loren Michael** » Feb 27, 2014 1:42 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:You should do moral things because you understand why they are good, not because some book or authorative figure tells you to.

Absent some understanding, authoritarianism (regular or religious) might pick up some slack. Example: Many people don't [do some minor crime that adversely affects others] because it's a dickish thing to do. Others don't [do the same minor crime] because they fear the law, or they fear some cosmic arbiter.

The outcome for the people who would otherwise be impacted by minor illegal dickery is the same in each case.

hoopy frood · **#43** by **hoopy frood** » Feb 27, 2014 3:13 am

zulumoose wrote:
hoopy frood wrote:

You think an unmolested body orifice is of more value to a human being than an uncorrupted mind?

The worst possible outcome of having been chained to a pipe in a basement torture porn dungeon and used as a sex prop would be if it fucked your head up permanently. Which is the goal at the outset of teaching children superstition and lies.

Quite apart from the physical outcomes, which could be lethal, and which you have completely ignored, there is the fact that treatment like that is likely to completely destroy one's sense of self worth.

A destroyed sense of self-worth was precisely the kind of thing I was referring to as a corrupted mind.

hoopy frood · **#44** by **hoopy frood** » Feb 27, 2014 3:16 am

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:Yeah, I think that's crazytalk, but again, totally subjective. Who's to say which is really worse, all I can say is what I know I'd prefer.

I think we can all agree that both are pretty damned nasty and unnecessary.

Good point, and I'm sure we can. :thumbup:

Eta: And both are intolerably outrageous. Yet one of the two is not only tolerated, it is endorsed, sanctioned and often funded, by the state.

Darwinsbulldog · **#45** by **Darwinsbulldog** » Feb 27, 2014 3:26 am

hoopy frood wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:
Loren Michael wrote:Yeah, I think that's crazytalk, but again, totally subjective. Who's to say which is really worse, all I can say is what I know I'd prefer.

I think we can all agree that both are pretty damned nasty and unnecessary.

Good point, and I'm sure we can.

Eta: And both are intolerably outrageous. Yet one of the two is not only tolerated, it is endorsed, sanctioned and often funded, by the state.

That is what I was groping for! :thumbup:

Onyx8 · **#46** by **Onyx8** » Feb 27, 2014 3:58 am

How Catholic of you.

Darwinsbulldog · **#47** by **Darwinsbulldog** » Feb 28, 2014 4:18 pm

Onyx8 wrote:How Catholic of you.

Ha! very funny.

DougC · **#48** by **DougC** » Mar 01, 2014 12:56 am

"Is religion good for children"

Not for this one.

Calilasseia · **#49** by **Calilasseia** » Mar 02, 2014 9:52 am

I, for one, would like to know what purported "good" can arise from teaching mythological assertions to children as if they constituted established fact, when frequently, readily observable evidence says otherwise about said assertions.

Darwinsbulldog · **#50** by **Darwinsbulldog** » Mar 02, 2014 10:48 am

Calilasseia wrote:I, for one, would like to know what purported "good" can arise from teaching mythological assertions to children as if they constituted established fact, when frequently, readily observable evidence says otherwise about said assertions.

Teaching is not for the imparting of good information or the development of critical thinking skills Cali, it is to produce the next generation of compliant robots to do the tribe's will. HTH! :thumbup:

Ihavenofingerprints · **#51** by **Ihavenofingerprints** » Mar 02, 2014 11:26 am

What's bad is teaching kids there is some kind of unchanging, unquestionable authority they need to obey. I couldn't think of a better way to make them gullible to all sorts of scams. That isn't an ideal start to life.

I don't propose banning parents from telling this stuff to their kids. I just think it needs to be countered in schools with a more reasonable approach to the topic of religion and politics.

Loren Michael · **#52** by **Loren Michael** » Mar 03, 2014 10:47 am

Calilasseia wrote:I, for one, would like to know what purported "good" can arise from teaching mythological assertions to children as if they constituted established fact, when frequently, readily observable evidence says otherwise about said assertions.

The notion involves the ends (behavior adjustment) justifying the means (myths treated as fact).

Ihavenofingerprints · **#53** by **Ihavenofingerprints** » Mar 03, 2014 11:00 am

When someone does that with anything other than religion it looks like child abuse. If a kid entered high school claiming to believe that if he misbehaves at school Santa wont bring any presents, surely child protection services would be called in if the school's management found out?

Or if the child claimed they don't want to get bad test scores because their father will go up to heaven himself and kill the dead family dog once more to ensure the child will never ever see it ever again - that would look like child abuse.

I don't have a solution, but everyone, even the religious seem to agree this sort of parenting is unethical when it's someone else doing the brainwashing.

Loren Michael · **#54** by **Loren Michael** » Mar 03, 2014 1:30 pm

I dunno, I don't think teaching someone that karma is true (good deeds lead to future happiness/bad deeds lead to future suffering) is child abuse even as I don't think that karma is real.

Agrippina · **#55** by **Agrippina** » Mar 03, 2014 2:37 pm

Because it's not true. Good things don't always happen to good people, sometimes some really horrible things happen to very good people, and fantastic things happen to very bad people. I think it's better to teach them to be good because it's the right thing to do.

Loren Michael · **#56** by **Loren Michael** » Mar 03, 2014 3:02 pm

Agrippina wrote:Because it's not true. Good things don't always happen to good people, sometimes some really horrible things happen to very good people, and fantastic things happen to very bad people.

I know it's not true; I agree it's not true and that bad things happen to good people, etc. I don't think it's child abuse though.

I think it's better to teach them to be good because it's the right thing to do.

Is that true?

Agrippina · **#57** by **Agrippina** » Mar 03, 2014 5:22 pm

Loren Michael wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Because it's not true. Good things don't always happen to good people, sometimes some really horrible things happen to very good people, and fantastic things happen to very bad people.

I know it's not true; I agree it's not true and that bad things happen to good people, etc. I don't think it's child abuse though.

I think it's better to teach them to be good because it's the right thing to do.

Is that true?

I don't know. It seemed to work for my kids. I don't believe that they should be told that doing good will bring them good rewards, which is what the "karma" thing is. That's just setting them up to be disappointed when something unexpected and painful happens to them. I'd rather tell them that sometimes bad things happen, and teach them how to deal with it when they do.

zulumoose · **#58** by **zulumoose** » Mar 03, 2014 6:33 pm

You could teach them that a lot of what happens is life is beyond our control, but that at least if you strive to do the right thing, you are exercising some measure of control over people in general having to face injustice, and have given yourself the ability to maintain your own sense of self-worth and dignity. Other people, the right people, will also often recognise and respect someone who tends to act in this way.

Unless you work for a large company, or any company with ambitious management, in which case all bets are off.

Agrippina · **#59** by **Agrippina** » Mar 03, 2014 6:56 pm

Indeed. Which is why I say bad things (big companies) happen to good people. That and school bullies, mothers-in-law, controlling husbands/wives, flat tyres, car-jackings, home invasions, etc etc.

Ihavenofingerprints · **#60** by **Ihavenofingerprints** » Mar 04, 2014 12:54 am

Loren Michael wrote:I dunno, I don't think teaching someone that karma is true (good deeds lead to future happiness/bad deeds lead to future suffering) is child abuse even as I don't think that karma is real.

Fair point, I think there are different degrees on brainwashing then. Scaring kids with myths with consequences like hell is wrong, tricking them into believing if they treat someone badly, they will receive the same treatment is much less so.

Is religion good for children

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