Just looking through the whole Kalamity Craig and such, and the standard claim of god being "timeless and spaceless" whatever the hell THAT means... Why does he put forth such arguments? Notwithstanding the shittiness of the argument, let's say they are successful- wouldn't that effectively weed out the Christian god, who by definition needs to be IN time and space in order to interact with people?

Or have I got my lines crossed?

Yes, you do have your lines crossed. That God is independent of His creation (that is to say, the universe depends on Him but not vice versa), does not mean His creation is inaccessible to Him. Analogously, a Toyota engineer does not need to be "in" a car in order to build it, but he does need to be in it in order to drive it.

apparentlydeluded wrote:Yes, you do have your lines crossed. That God is independent of His creation (that is to say, the universe depends on Him but not vice versa), does not mean His creation is inaccessible to Him. Analogously, a Toyota engineer does not need to be "in" a car in order to build it, but he does need to be in it in order to drive it.

Crap analogy. The Toyota engineer has to be within time and space in order to create a car. He is not "independent" of his creation in fact he very much has to be dependant upon the the materials and built up knowledge and experience to make one. He cannot make it out of nothing.

All bollocks anyway, until such time as somebody can demonstrate that 'outside of time' is remotely viable. Good luck with that.

Just looking through the whole Kalamity Craig and such, and the standard claim of god being "timeless and spaceless" whatever the hell THAT means

It means he doesn't exist. If there is any moment in time in which the statement "Yahweh exists" is true, then he is inside of time. The only way he can be seperate from time is if there is no point in time at which he exists. And as for outside of space, that is the complete opposite of what a lot of Christians believe about their god being omnipresent - an omnipresent being is one which is present at all points in space, whereas Craig's god is not present at any point in space. There is no place at which it can be said "Yahweh is here". Yahweh is nowhere, and hence does not exist.

apparentlydeluded wrote:Yes, you do have your lines crossed. That God is independent of His creation (that is to say, the universe depends on Him but not vice versa), does not mean His creation is inaccessible to Him. Analogously, a Toyota engineer does not need to be "in" a car in order to build it, but he does need to be in it in order to drive it.

Interesting, AD!

I was wondering about this too while watching Doctor Who the other day. Apparently the Blinovitch Limitation Effect prevents a time traveller "redoing" events that have already happened, yet in more than one episode the Doctor seems to get around this. Perhaps the Doctor, like God, is independent of time and space yet at the same time has it accesible to him like a Toyota manufacturer. Hmm. But then wouldn't the Temporal Police have something to say about that... or is that Star Trek Voyager, or the Bible? Hmm.. they're all so alike I get confused.

apparentlydeluded wrote:Yes, you do have your lines crossed. That God is independent of His creation (that is to say, the universe depends on Him but not vice versa), does not mean His creation is inaccessible to Him. Analogously, a Toyota engineer does not need to be "in" a car in order to build it, but he does need to be in it in order to drive it.

Sorry, but that's crap. A Toyota engineer is still IN time for him to build a car. If god is "timeless", then he can't be in some other level of time- he has to be in NO time whatsoever. That analogy fails. If you were to interact with others who are IN time while you are "timeless", then this means you MUST be in time, even for that short while while you are interacting with the said time... which is absurd because you can't hop in and out of time, which itself would suggest time.

What I want to know is where did this God get his knowledge and expertise in the craft of universe building and where he got his materials from?

Animavore wrote:What I want to know is where did this God get his knowledge and expertise in the craft of universe building and where he got his materials from?

Here, of course

apparentlydeluded wrote:Yes, you do have your lines crossed. That God is independent of His creation (that is to say, the universe depends on Him but not vice versa), does not mean His creation is inaccessible to Him. Analogously, a Toyota engineer does not need to be "in" a car in order to build it, but he does need to be in it in order to drive it.

So if this god is quote " independent of His creation " and thus in your Toyota analogy " does not need to be "in" a car universe in order to build it ", then where is he?

You are saying he's "outside space "? OK, where is that place then?

Ian.