Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

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Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#1  Postby Kiwi » Mar 28, 2010 12:26 pm

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sikhism/news/ ... d=10633303

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The Human Rights Commission has been asked to clarify whether a Sikh student should be allowed to wear a ceremonial dagger to school. The commission refused to reveal further details but said two schools had also contacted it for advice on how to handle requests to wear the daggers. Sikh Society spokesman Daljit Singh estimates more than 50 children and a few teachers wear the daggers, called kirpans. He has been involved in discussions about pupils at schools in Auckland, Hastings, Hamilton, Tauranga, Te Puke, Wellington and Christchurch.

The knives are one of five key symbols of faith for male and female Sikhs and must be worn in a cloth bag under clothes at all times. They are "not a weapon" and are only ever used to "fight for good", said Singh. He said New Zealand had become increasingly multi-cultural and schools had to understand the issue. A mother of boys aged 13, 14 and 15, who wear kirpans to school in South Auckland said the 12cm blades were under a shirt and "not hurting anyone". She visited the schools to explain the significance of the knives, convincing staff they would not be used to hurt others.

Peter Gall of Papatoetoe High School, which has a 41 per cent Indian roll, said people shouldn't make a big deal about the issue. David Ellery, head of Somerville Intermediate, in Auckland's Howick, said a family seeking to enrol their child last year asked if the child could wear a kirpan. The school sought advice from the Sikh community, Ministry of Education and other schools but the family decided not to go ahead with the enrolment.Rawiri Brell from the Ministry of Education said what students wore at school was a matter for individual boards.

Education law expert Patrick Walsh said any school that received a request to wear a kirpan should investigate if it related to a core religious or cultural value, if there were any health and safety concerns and whether the request was outrageous or rebellious. Auckland-based youth law senior solicitor John Hancock said he dealt with about six disputes between students and schools over cultural or religious issues a year. He said schools had to reflect their communities, which were becoming more culturally diverse.
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#2  Postby rEvolutionist » Mar 28, 2010 12:33 pm

It's absolutely ridiculous that the education department should find this issue so hard to address. What is more important? Safety of the kids, or religious symbolism?
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#3  Postby Dogmatic Pyrrhonist » Mar 28, 2010 12:38 pm

So which fucking culture/religion/secret society DOESN'T have some ceremonial weapon? And how many are allowed into schools?
Feck, I've got a nice Nepalese ceremonial Khukri. Should I demand the right to wear it at work? It's clearly not for hurting people and only for ceremonially beheading oxen.
I really really hope this gets shot down in flames. They can wear their silly hats as much as they want, but fucking daggers?
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#4  Postby Grimstad » Mar 28, 2010 12:47 pm

I wonder why I haven't heard much uproar in the states. There's no way in hell that would be allowed here.

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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#5  Postby David M » Mar 28, 2010 12:56 pm

Dogmantic Pyrrhonist wrote:So which fucking culture/religion/secret society DOESN'T have some ceremonial weapon? And how many are allowed into schools?
Feck, I've got a nice Nepalese ceremonial Khukri. Should I demand the right to wear it at work? It's clearly not for hurting people and only for ceremonially beheading oxen.
I really really hope this gets shot down in flames. They can wear their silly hats as much as they want, but fucking daggers?


Its not a ceremonial weapon, its a requirement of the religion as much as the "silly hat".

This subject has come up in the UK over the years and I cannot recall any report of an incident at school where a Kirpan was involved. So the safety of children may not be that much of an issue. But in the UK I'm fairly sure they carry a miniature symbolic kirpan a few cm long, not 12cm.

Grimstad wrote:I wonder why I haven't heard much uproar in the states. There's no way in hell that would be allowed here.


I have a feeling that in the US any prohibition would be declared unconstitutional, for Sikh men wearing a kirpan is not some interpretation/symbol like cross wearing its an explicit requirement of their religion. It would be akin to preventing a muslim praying from the believers perspective.
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#6  Postby I'm With Stupid » Mar 28, 2010 12:58 pm

If it's ceremonial, it can be made out of plastic or rubber (and many are already).
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#7  Postby cursuswalker » Mar 28, 2010 1:05 pm

I have read that the ones for school have the blade welded into the sheath. In which caee, what the hey?
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#8  Postby Grimstad » Mar 28, 2010 2:20 pm

David M wrote:
Grimstad wrote:I wonder why I haven't heard much uproar in the states. There's no way in hell that would be allowed here.


I have a feeling that in the US any prohibition would be declared unconstitutional, for Sikh men wearing a kirpan is not some interpretation/symbol like cross wearing its an explicit requirement of their religion. It would be akin to preventing a muslim praying from the believers perspective.

There is abolutely ZERO tolerance for weapons in US schools.:naughty: Lots of schools have metal detectors at the entrance.

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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#9  Postby Tyrannical » Mar 28, 2010 2:25 pm

Hmmm, what if the knife was welded to the sheath or something so that it was impossible to be drawn out?
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#10  Postby Grimstad » Mar 28, 2010 2:29 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Hmmm, what if the knife was welded to the sheath or something so that it was impossible to be drawn out?

I doubt that would even fly. It would have to be rubber or plastic. Really cheap plastic. Nope, I think rubber would be the only option.

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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#11  Postby james1v » Mar 28, 2010 2:34 pm

So, a Taliban asylum seekers children, would have the right to carry a rocket launcher to school? :crazy:
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#12  Postby Varangian » Mar 28, 2010 5:06 pm

If it is symbolic/ceremonial, it doesn't have to be sharp or even possible to use. Make the blade from some pot metal that breaks if you look sideways at it, and make the dagger really small.
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#13  Postby Rome Existed » Mar 28, 2010 7:17 pm

This issue came up in Australia a couple of years ago. They were told that the law doesn't allow the carrying of weapons in a school and that it won't be changed.
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#14  Postby cursuswalker » Mar 28, 2010 7:51 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Hmmm, what if the knife was welded to the sheath or something so that it was impossible to be drawn out?


Yup, as I said above. This does happen.
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#15  Postby Dogmatic Pyrrhonist » Mar 28, 2010 9:49 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Hmmm, what if the knife was welded to the sheath or something so that it was impossible to be drawn out?

At the point where it's no longer a weapon, it's no longer an issue. Although verifying that they are welded shut, or what-ever may be a horrible shit fight. But in reality no weapon rules tend to not be enforced anyway. So it's the policy that matters, not so much whether they can enforce it.
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#16  Postby rEvolutionist » Mar 28, 2010 9:49 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:If it's ceremonial, it can be made out of plastic or rubber (and many are already).


yeah, this is what I have been wondering. Does it have to be a real and sharp knife?
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Re: Sikh daggers testing schools - special treatment ?

#17  Postby Dogmatic Pyrrhonist » Mar 28, 2010 9:50 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
I'm With Stupid wrote:If it's ceremonial, it can be made out of plastic or rubber (and many are already).


yeah, this is what I have been wondering. Does it have to be a real and sharp knife?

Probably depends on the flavour of loony.
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