I give now some responses to your thought provoking replies; and the rest I will answer later. Please be patient. Thanks.
To reason well is like romance - a delicate task. It takes time.

stijndeloose wrote:

I'm still looking for the Cellar "Argument". All I saw is a crap analogy and a lot of drivel.

Maybe its because you are concentrating on the analogy and not on the argument.

Aurlito wrote:

I reached the roof, there was a helipad with a bunch of people waiting around it, hoping that a beam of light will shine and will ascend them to heavens, and some of them grabbed other people despite of the fact that they didn't want to come.

And then you went back down to the cellar?

If by "reaching the roof" you mean reading Holy Books, Praying, Fasting, Seeking the truth, I've done all that. now show me the god.

No. Where did all that come from?

Those things help you only to escape from the cellar. They dont make you see the stars and make the discovery you want to make.

Aurlito, did you take your telescope to the roof?

If you are short-sighted after adapting to living in tight spaces of the cellar, then a good quality telescope is an essential equipment to take to the roof in order to make a proper scientific observation of the stars.


.

Sophie T wrote:

Does Ray believe that this argument also holds up when the word God is replaced with the word elves?

If Ray were to accept that the Elf is a god, or even god-like, then why not. Ray is not dogmatic and stubborn.

In fact, Ray is believed to be the 3rd most reasonable guy north of the 42nd parallel.

It would be unfair of God Elves to completely hide itself themselves.
God Elves is are fair so it does not they do not completely hide itself themselves from those that truly want to see it them.
Anyone that truly wants to see God Elves can.
If you cannot see God Elves then you don’t truly want to.

Bad argument, but I will give you 6 out of 10 for the bravery.

Tell me, why would it be unfair for an Elf to hide himself.

Is this Ray's opinion, or is this the educated opinion of a panel of experts?

Do you care to tell us what you consider an education to be?

Will Ray be offered a book deal anytime soon?

Would you want to be in Ray's deal, or you want to stay out it?

I haven't read the entire thread, but perhaps Ray would humor me anyway.

This is not a joke. Ray is not here to entertain anyone. He saves that for past 11pm.

Is there a specific building Ray has in mind or will any building do?

Rays said its the building that holds you in its cellar.

Once we are on the roof of a building, what does Ray want us to do next? (Not jump, I hope.)

Ray just asks you to look up. You cant miss it. The star is really big.

So, Ray tells one skeptic they 'need a telescope' and the second 'look up, you can't miss it'. All this needs now is a pratfall or a pie in the face or a silly walk...

tytalus wrote:So, Ray tells one skeptic they 'need a telescope' and the second 'look up, you can't miss it'. All this needs now is a pratfall or a pie in the face or a silly walk...

I would settle for a punchline.

ray wrote:...

Ray just asks you to look up. You cant miss it. The star is really big.

Ray, that star is called the "Sun" and I think you've got heatstroke.

ray's gone on enforced 'holiday' for a month, but anyway:

ray wrote:

It would be unfair of God Elves to completely hide itself themselves.
God Elves is are fair so it does not they do not completely hide itself themselves from those that truly want to see it them.
Anyone that truly wants to see God Elves can.
If you cannot see God Elves then you don’t truly want to.

Bad argument, but I will give you 6 out of 10 for the bravery.

Well it is your argument after all.

Variable substitution (in this case "Elves" for "God") is a well known means of checking the validity of an argument.

Therefore in recognising that the argument does not work with the change, he has admitted (even though he may not realise this to be the case, if his reasoning and logic skills are not up to the task) that the STRUCTURE of the argument he gave is fundamentally flawed.

ray wrote:
Tell me, why would it be unfair for an Elf to hide himself.

It is no more or less an empty assertion as that of this "God" doing so.

ray wrote:
Ray just asks you to look up. You cant miss it. The star is really big.

Except you need a telescope in order to see it.
ray can't even keep his little analogy straight. Nor can he, as he himself charged another with doing, step outside of it to explain himself.

What the Hel is this telescope supposed to represent, for instance?!
It is simply inane to stick within an analogy all the time, if one doesn't bother to exaplaon what it each part of the analogy is supposed to be representing.

ADParker wrote:ray can't even keep his little analogy straight. Nor can he, as he himself charged another with doing, step outside of it to explain himself.

What the Hel is this telescope supposed to represent, for instance?!
It is simply inane to stick within an analogy all the time, if one doesn't bother to exaplaon what it each part of the analogy is supposed to be representing.

Maybe he actually wants it to be taken literally and we're confusing ourselves by seeing it (logically) as an analogy?

Maybe he thinks we all have cellars and like hiding there all the time?

Maybe we should organize a big roof top sit-in, with our lap tops and telescopes, in a months time, so that he can directly describe to us where to look when we get up there?

dreamweaver wrote:>snip<

Maybe we should organize a big roof top sit-in, with our lap tops and telescopes, in a months time, so that he can directly describe to us where to look when we get up there?

(MY bold.)

Not on this forum he can't. ( He's been banned.)

redwhine wrote:
Not on this forum he can't. ( He's been banned.)

Suspended, for a month, actually.

ADParker wrote:

redwhine wrote:
Not on this forum he can't. ( He's been banned.)

Suspended, for a month, actually.

My bad!

There's a big "BANNED" where the avatar should be. I guess I should read the FUA.

redwhine wrote:There's a big "BANNED" where the avatar should be. I guess I should read the FUA.

I know, I know.

I saw that at first as well. But being active on the thread, I read through and found the post where he was suspended.
And looking back at his details saw "Suspended User" under that avatar.

They really could do with a separate "Suspended" Avatar, if they choose to mark a suspension in that way.

ADParker wrote:

redwhine wrote:There's a big "BANNED" where the avatar should be. I guess I should read the FUA.

I know, I know.

I saw that at first as well. But being active on the thread, I read through and found the post where he was suspended.
And looking back at his details saw "Suspended User" under that avatar.

They really could do with a separate "Suspended" Avatar, if they choose to mark a suspension in that way.

Yeah that's OK, I've followed the Ray saga pretty closely (never had a need to jump in. You guys are doing a brilliant job) and saw him get suspended. I'm just trying to understand his viewpoint and wonder whether we are totally off the mark with him. What if he wants us to take his analogy literally??

The suspension is little off the banishment he was hoping for. With his avatar covered in "banned" he may think he's achieved his silly martrydom, but I predict he turns up in a month's time to point out the conflict and assert we can't even keep our own place in order, so no wonder we can't understand his "pearls of wisdom". He seems to take great joy in turning arguments back onto people. In this "Ray" case, we really do need a "suspended"avatar.

When you come back, Ray, I have three requests:

1. STOP ANSWERING QUESTIONS WITH QUESTIONS.

2. STOP EVADING QUESTIONS. Just answer the bloody question, Ray.

3. STOP EQUIVOCATING.

In the meantime I will that I never run into you in the street needing directions to the fish and chips shop.

I remember saying this before, but I find it interesting how theist say that god cannot be described or seen or his intentions be known...etc. Yet, they have no problem of describing all (or some) of his superpowers, how and what he thinks and feels, and what his plan is for some individuals or groups.

And also, how can one find god, how one should look for him. Many of these theists simply forget that a lot of atheist (here as well) were once devout believers and did all that.

I want to know what God got up to before creating the universe. Did he just sit there twiddling his thumbs?

chairman bill wrote:I want to know what God got up to before creating the universe. Did he just sit there twiddling his thumbs?

He was playing "Jacks" and "I spy" with this guy:

The Thousand Arms and Thousand Eyes Avalokitesvara is depicted standing and has eleven heads with three levels diminishing in size as they face outward, upon these nine heads is that of vajrapani, and on the top, crowned with that of Buddha Amitaba.



Had a tough time beating him.

Ok. Back for now, even after my martyrdom.

See my other thread for details: islam/i-am-muslim-part-3-t3449-840.html

Anyway,

I see you guys have not yet challenged anything in the Cellar Argument.

Sorry did not notice you went away. There was an argument ? What was that argument again ?

Come on man, dont play games with God. Its impossible for Him to lose.
He throws the dice and also determines which numbers come up. Atheists have no chance against God.

Life is short and it is not a game.

Get out of the cellar, get to the roof and see IT yourself.

ray wrote:Come on man, dont play games with God. Life is short and it is not a game.
Get out of the cellar, get to the roof and see IT yourself.

That sounds like preaching. Your position of faith is:.............?

ray wrote:Ok. Back for now, even after my martyrdom.

See my other thread for details: islam/i-am-muslim-part-3-t3449-840.html

Anyway,

I see you guys have not yet challenged anything in the Cellar Argument.

Again: it's not an argument. It's a metaphor. You have yet to demonstrate that it adequately describes reality.