And if so why is there no government public information undermining Pascal's Wager? They tell us nipping extremism in the bud is a priority but I never hear anything about the big stick thrashing people into Islamic extremism. It vexes.

It's an interesting question. We hear a lot about them being motivated by the idea of going to heaven but I can't say I've heard much about their fear of hell. I try to read what I can about the Musilm view and it's something that appears (to me) to be absent. Many Christians on the other hand seem to live in a constant fear of fire and brimstone.

I read the first 200 pages of the Quran and counted 105 references to hell. It seems a much more frequent and engrained tenet than for Xtianity or indeed any other religion I'm aware of.

Interesting then that it doesn't seem to be theme in the extremist diatribes. Could just be that my perception is off. Or perhaps the Imams are manipulating people with their interpretation of the scriptures? Naw, couldn't be.

Reading a fascinating book on neurology and Sherlock Holmes, Maria Konnikova Mastermind, that uses a variation of Kanneman Type 1 and Type 2 thinking.

It is as if Islam has almost fifteen hundred years practice at institutionalising certain types of thinking techniques. Jihadi type behaviours might be predictable..

Griz_ wrote:Interesting then that it doesn't seem to be theme in the extremist diatribes. Could just be that my perception is off. Or perhaps the Imams are manipulating people with their interpretation of the scriptures? Naw, couldn't be.

I hear them saying the infidels will burn in hell from time to time. Perhaps there's some shame in admitting one is motivated by terror of hell....as if a true believer should not be motivated by such a base and violent threat. It's often taken as read that the Jehadis think they'll go to heaven - why then is it not assumed they think they'll go to hell if they fail to do their duty? Surely terror of hell is a more potent motivator then greed for heaven - loss aversion and all that.

A former colleague of mine, who had benefitted from Arabic Studies at Oxford, suggested to me that segregation of young men and women coupled with (hah!) the lure of 72 sexually-compliant non-menstruating virgins was extremely important in understanding Islamic militarism among young men.

One can see why, given childhood indoctrination. We discussed the matter on several occasions and he didn't mention fear of hell.

ETA he stressed that the non-menstruating thing was considered important: given the prevalence of menstruation taboos, that makes sense.

They don't poo either, according to the translation of the quran I read. It seems strange to me that the draw of heaven would be more powerful than an aversion to hell. Strange too that you never discussed fear of hell circa Jihadis with your friend. Strange strange strange.

Why? Because the book repeatedly tells them the god who gives them booty will send them to hell if they don't be bad Mussy gangsters.

Keep It Real wrote:I read the first 200 pages of the Quran and counted 105 references to hell. It seems a much more frequent and engrained tenet than for Xtianity or indeed any other religion I'm aware of.

Chapter 1 is full of hell references, getting past chapter one is your first miracle of the Quran.

Keep It Real wrote:

Griz_ wrote:Interesting then that it doesn't seem to be theme in the extremist diatribes. Could just be that my perception is off. Or perhaps the Imams are manipulating people with their interpretation of the scriptures? Naw, couldn't be.

I hear them saying the infidels will burn in hell from time to time. Perhaps there's some shame in admitting one is motivated by terror of hell....as if a true believer should not be motivated by such a base and violent threat. It's often taken as read that the Jehadis think they'll go to heaven - why then is it not assumed they think they'll go to hell if they fail to do their duty? Surely terror of hell is a more potent motivator then greed for heaven - loss aversion and all that.

Actually, I think the point is that the believer knows they need not fear hell because, of course, they're the good guys. Thus, heaven is by far the bigger draw. Hell is what's used to bully and intimidate others.

Peter Brown wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:I read the first 200 pages of the Quran and counted 105 references to hell. It seems a much more frequent and engrained tenet than for Xtianity or indeed any other religion I'm aware of.

Chapter 1 is full of hell references, getting past chapter one is your first miracle of the Quran.

No; it occurs fairly regularly.

Spearthrower wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:

Griz_ wrote:Interesting then that it doesn't seem to be theme in the extremist diatribes. Could just be that my perception is off. Or perhaps the Imams are manipulating people with their interpretation of the scriptures? Naw, couldn't be.

I hear them saying the infidels will burn in hell from time to time. Perhaps there's some shame in admitting one is motivated by terror of hell....as if a true believer should not be motivated by such a base and violent threat. It's often taken as read that the Jehadis think they'll go to heaven - why then is it not assumed they think they'll go to hell if they fail to do their duty? Surely terror of hell is a more potent motivator then greed for heaven - loss aversion and all that.

Actually, I think the point is that the believer knows they need not fear hell because, of course, they're the good guys. Thus, heaven is by far the bigger draw. Hell is what's used to bully and intimidate others.

If a Muslim were to shirk their duty of Jihad, they would be one of the "others" would they not?

It would depend on their cultural and individual definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

I read extremist diatribes as extremist diarrhoea and thought "That sounds just awful".

Keep It Real wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:

Griz_ wrote:Interesting then that it doesn't seem to be theme in the extremist diatribes. Could just be that my perception is off. Or perhaps the Imams are manipulating people with their interpretation of the scriptures? Naw, couldn't be.

I hear them saying the infidels will burn in hell from time to time. Perhaps there's some shame in admitting one is motivated by terror of hell....as if a true believer should not be motivated by such a base and violent threat. It's often taken as read that the Jehadis think they'll go to heaven - why then is it not assumed they think they'll go to hell if they fail to do their duty? Surely terror of hell is a more potent motivator then greed for heaven - loss aversion and all that.

Actually, I think the point is that the believer knows they need not fear hell because, of course, they're the good guys. Thus, heaven is by far the bigger draw. Hell is what's used to bully and intimidate others.

If a Muslim were to shirk their duty of Jihad, they would be one of the "others" would they not?

Not really. Most don't believe joining a jihad is necessary to go to heaven. In fact, doesn't matter what religion a believer has. They each think that they are the most likely to go to heaven, because they have a covenantal relationship with their god, ensuring that they are doing exactly what is needed to go to heaven. Simples!

Arnold Layne wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:
Actually, I think the point is that the believer knows they need not fear hell because, of course, they're the good guys. Thus, heaven is by far the bigger draw. Hell is what's used to bully and intimidate others.

If a Muslim were to shirk their duty of Jihad, they would be one of the "others" would they not?

Not really. Most don't believe joining a jihad is necessary to go to heaven. In fact, doesn't matter what religion a believer has. They each think that they are the most likely to go to heaven, because they have a covenantal relationship with their god, ensuring that they are doing exactly what is needed to go to heaven. Simples!

If Jihadis didn't think they needed to make Jihad in order to go to heaven then that rather goes against the idea they are motivated by 72 virgins. If I had to choose which of the two options were a bigger motivator; 72 virgins or avoiding infinite suffering the latter would be the bigger motivator by an...infinite margin. It'd be a good idea to make Jihad (as it is most commonly understood - holy war) in order to avoid infinite suffering.

Is it just the 72 virgins who don't shit, or everyone? I can't see the attraction of a heaven without a good, satisfying dump, but maybe if I spent my toilet time squatting in a desert, watching for scorpions and scraping my arse with pebbles I'd feel differently. Just think how history would differ if some dude had invented tampons and 2-ply bog roll in 200 AD.

Stick and carrot and they're so busy lusting after the recyclable women that they leave thoughts of hell behind them.
As for the powers-that-be telling them there's no hell: they'll never do that because they'd be telling them that their religion is made-up nonsense. Which would mean admitting that their own religion is also made-up nonsense. Can you imagine mainstream politicians in the UK or US doing that?

Keep It Real wrote:

Arnold Layne wrote:

Keep It Real wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:
Actually, I think the point is that the believer knows they need not fear hell because, of course, they're the good guys. Thus, heaven is by far the bigger draw. Hell is what's used to bully and intimidate others.

If a Muslim were to shirk their duty of Jihad, they would be one of the "others" would they not?

Not really. Most don't believe joining a jihad is necessary to go to heaven. In fact, doesn't matter what religion a believer has. They each think that they are the most likely to go to heaven, because they have a covenantal relationship with their god, ensuring that they are doing exactly what is needed to go to heaven. Simples!

If Jihadis didn't think they needed to make Jihad in order to go to heaven then that rather goes against the idea they are motivated by 72 virgins. If I had to choose which of the two options were a bigger motivator; 72 virgins or avoiding infinite suffering the latter would be the bigger motivator by an...infinite margin. It'd be a good idea to make Jihad (as it is most commonly understood - holy war) in order to avoid infinite suffering.

You need to consider the multiple definitions of jihad - it doesn't have a single interpretation even within one sect of Islam. While it may have often been applied in a militaristic sense, and while it may often be used in this sense in Western media, there's also the definition of an internal struggle. For those sects of Islam which decry violence, this is obviously the definition they use.

Again, a believer already thinks they're destined for heaven on account of believing the right god and practicing the correct rituals; they use hell like parents use the boogeyman - to scare people to conform. The fear of going to hell might prevent them from breaking some rule, but it doesn't motivate their daily existence unless they're total crackpots.