Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

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Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#1  Postby BrandySpears » Mar 16, 2010 8:12 pm

The PDF: http://www.theahafoundation.org/system/ ... WeKnow.pdf

In response to ongoing abuses of women's rights in the name of fundamentalist Islam, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and her supporters established the AHA Foundation in 2007 to help protect and defend the rights of women in the West against militant Islam.

Through education, outreach and the dissemination of knowledge, the Foundation aims to combat several types of crimes against women, including female genital mutilation, forced marriages, honor violence, and honor killings.

The Foundation is opposed to the adoption of dual legal systems to adjudicate family disputes in religious families and supports the separation of all religions and the State.

The AHA Foundation works to reinforce the following basic rights: the rights of women and girls to security and control of their own bodies, the rights of women and girls to an education, the rights of women to work outside the home and to control their own income, the rights of women and girls to freedom of expression and association, and the rights of women and girls to other basic civil rights of citizens and residents defined under the laws of Western democracies and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, regardless of sexual identification.


WHAT DO WE KNOW? Click here to download facts and figures on the circumstances affecting Muslim girls and women in the United States.
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What We Know

#2  Postby Lucy Wiggin » Mar 16, 2010 8:15 pm

I started reading and couldn't go on. This is horrible.
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#3  Postby HughMcB » Mar 16, 2010 8:30 pm

:coffee:

From the little I've read it's pretty awful.
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#4  Postby Prince of Gonzo » Mar 16, 2010 8:41 pm

Just finished it up. Blood is now at a feverish boil.
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#5  Postby Guy McNally » Mar 16, 2010 9:30 pm

I recently read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Infidel, wherein she recounts her personal experiences with many of the issues highlighted in this paper. I particularly recall her example of how a pilot project aimed at keeping statistics on honor killings of Muslim women and girls in Holland, in two police districts over an eight-month period, revealed eleven such deaths, which increased public awareness of the problem. Good resource, Brandy, thanks.
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#6  Postby Oeditor » Mar 16, 2010 10:38 pm

The stinking rot of cultural relativism. If other people were cutting bits off little girls, in the USA or the UK, they'd be hunted down remorselessly and thrown in to gaol where they belong.
The very reason food is sealed is to keep information out. - Gary Ablett Snr.
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#7  Postby Rollerlocked » Mar 17, 2010 1:13 am

Oeditor wrote:The stinking rot of cultural relativism. If other people were cutting bits off little girls, in the USA or the UK, they'd be hunted down remorselessly and thrown in to gaol where they belong.

The appropriate penalty for this crime is life imprisonment. To detect and deter it, girls from areas where this barbarism is practised should be examined on a regular basis, which I believe Ayan Hirsi Ali has suggested, and once they have reached the West, it should be absolutely forbidden to return them to their countries of origin until they have reached the age of majority.

When these girls live in our countries, they deserve the protection of our law.
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#8  Postby Oeditor » Mar 17, 2010 5:53 pm

Apologists claim that female genital mutilation is a cultural rather than religious thing and an African rather than middle-Eastern culture at that. This article says not, that it's a Muslim thing and much more widespread than is realised or admitted. It think this quotation regarding a hadith says it all
The most often mentioned narration reports a debate between Muhammed and Um Habibah (or Um ‘Atiyyah). This woman, known as an exciser of female slaves, was one of a group of women who had immigrated with Muhammed. Having seen her, Muhammad asked her if she kept practicing her profession. She answered affirmatively, adding: "unless it is forbidden, and you order me to stop doing it." Muhammed replied: "Yes, it is allowed. Come closer so I can teach you: if you cut, do not overdo it, because it brings more radiance to the face, and it is more pleasant for the husband."
:puke2:
http://www.meforum.org/1629/is-female-g ... ic-problem
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#9  Postby ixolite » Mar 17, 2010 6:14 pm

Oeditor wrote:Apologists claim that female genital mutilation is a cultural rather than religious thing and an African rather than middle-Eastern culture at that.

Definitely not.

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Tears are wiped from the face of a 9-month-old following her circumcision.
Inside a Female-Circumcision Ceremony


The stinking rot of cultural relativism. If other people were cutting bits off little girls, in the USA or the UK, they'd be hunted down remorselessly and thrown in to gaol where they belong.

Yes, unfortunately that is not true for people who chop off parts of little boys. :nono:
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#10  Postby katja z » Mar 18, 2010 9:29 pm

Oeditor wrote:Apologists claim that female genital mutilation is a cultural rather than religious thing and an African rather than middle-Eastern culture at that. This article says not, that it's a Muslim thing and much more widespread than is realised or admitted.


FWIW, FGM is a pre-islamic practice and at least in Africa is not restricted to Muslim populations only. It's important to realize this if we want to do anything about it - in this sense claiming that it's a Muslim-only thing is downright dangerous because it blinds people to the extent of the problem!

This is from wikipedia and it fits with a number of other sources:
The traditional cultural practices of FGC predate Christianity and Islam. A Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs.

According to wikipedia, FGM is also practiced in South America.

I don't know how a practice being "cultural" rather than "religious" is any grounds for excusing it though. I agree with you on the :puke: And of course there's no doubt that it fits well with the general attitude of Islam towards women.
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#11  Postby Oeditor » Mar 18, 2010 9:42 pm

katja z wrote:I don't know how a practice being "cultural" rather than "religious" is any grounds for excusing it though.
Not my excuse, the apologists' and not so much an excuse as a diversion. It's evidently more complicated (what isn't?) than I realised but the article I cited said that a lot of Muslims think that it's a practice required by Islam. That it turns out to have originated with pagans should cause Muslims to ban it instantly. Which would be a good thing done for the wrong reasons.
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Re: Ayan Hirsi Ali: What Do We Know?

#12  Postby katja z » Mar 19, 2010 9:36 am

Oeditor wrote:
katja z wrote:I don't know how a practice being "cultural" rather than "religious" is any grounds for excusing it though.
Not my excuse, the apologists' and not so much an excuse as a diversion.

I didn't want to imply it was your excuse, I just wanted to clarify that saying it's not a religious practice doesn't imply any apologetics (mostly to make sure nobody bites my head off ;))

It's evidently more complicated (what isn't?) than I realised but the article I cited said that a lot of Muslims think that it's a practice required by Islam. That it turns out to have originated with pagans should cause Muslims to ban it instantly. Which would be a good thing done for the wrong reasons.

Good point. Sod the wrong reasons - whatever could make people reconsider cutting bits off other people is more than welcome.
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