Hajj numbers are down by half this year.

Partly due to the monstrous and destructive building work being undertaken by the Salafists to destroy the heritiage sites in case people start to hero worship. So they've issued 20% fewer visas to furriners.

Partly due to the economic downturn which has stopped people.

And partly due to fears around MERS, the coronavirus killing people in Saudi.

All in all it's the lowest number for a few years, perhaps only 1.6 million.

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/l ... 1386.story

The religious literacy lobby love to point out that Hajj is one of the 5 Pillars of Islam and insist that children have to know about it or they'll get blown by muslims or they'll blow up muslims themselves or have no respect for the burqa or some such.

Yet not only are the numbers of observances incredibly low for something that is required (2 billion muslims would take 1,000 years at this rate), it seems it may have always been more honoured in the breach than in the observance.

Anyone watching The Ottomans - Rageh Omaar's mildly hagiographic history of Ottoman rule might have been surpised to find that in 600 years, none (not one, single one) of the rulers of the largest and most enduring muslim empire ever performed Hajj.

I don't think you often see Hajj described as a nice idea that hardly anyone does and when we're told that the 5 Pillars compel some duty upon muslims that we should accomodate, it shows that they don't at all.

HomerJay wrote: in case people start to hero worship.

Oh, the irony!

When I was being raised as a fuckwit muslim, we were taught that it was every muslim's duty to perform Hajj but only if he/she could afford the journey and was fit enough to go. It was supposed to be something that you do once you had fulfilled your commitment such raising children and paying off your debts. It therefore tended to be older people who went Hajj. I guess many Muslims don't ever reach the required level of material wealth and most of the rest cannot be arsed.

Blackadder wrote:When I was being raised as a fuckwit muslim, we were taught that it was every muslim's duty to perform Hajj but only if he/she could afford the journey and was fit enough to go.

i find something quite funny about those few times that allah is uncharacteristically reasonable.
he spends 90% of the time telling us how we are all fucked for ever, for the most pointless and innane reasons, but occasionally will tell us that he doesn't mind if we eat pork in an emergency. Nice one allah. you really are the most merciful

I think it's different these days, the jet age has made long distance travel much more affordable and you frequently see stories about people spending thousands to take the whole family (usually trying to get £10K back from unscrupulous travel agents).

Also all the new hotels offer luxury accomodation beyond even that which Butlins customers enjoy.

So if cash was the issue why wouldn't the Saudis set up tents and food kitchens for the poor?

Women under 45 need to take a mahram so that adds to the cost, older ugly women who can't reproduce can get by on their own apparently.

Blackadder wrote:When I was being raised as a muslim...

Whoa, I never knew.

HomerJay wrote:I think it's different these days, the jet age has made long distance travel much more affordable and you frequently see stories about people spending thousands to take the whole family (usually trying to get £10K back from unscrupulous travel agents).

Also all the new hotels offer luxury accomodation beyond even that which Butlins customers enjoy.

So if cash was the issue why wouldn't the Saudis set up tents and food kitchens for the poor?

Women under 45 need to take a mahram so that adds to the cost, older ugly women who can't reproduce can get by on their own apparently.

I have never been to Mecca (not much chance now!) but I understand that there is food provided for the poor. However the cost of traveling there is beyond the means of many of the world's dirt poor 1.2billion muslims. Also the process of getting a Hajj visa is far from straightforward. Saudi bureaucracy is legendary for its stupidity and pettiness. Obviously richer muslims can just pay an agent to deal with the fiasco that is Saudi immigration. Not so easy for a peasant farmer from rural India.

Blackadder wrote:I have never been to Mecca (not much chance now!) but I understand that there is food provided for the poor. However the cost of traveling there is beyond the means of many of the world's dirt poor 1.2billion muslims. Also the process of getting a Hajj visa is far from straightforward. Saudi bureaucracy is legendary for its stupidity and pettiness. Obviously richer muslims can just pay an agent to deal with the fiasco that is Saudi immigration. Not so easy for a peasant farmer from rural India.

But the cost can be brought down if that is the issue, there are charities offering to pay for people and you can pay £1299 to have someone do it on your behalf, only if you are to ill or imfirm to travel yourself.

But why is there no international train service to carry people to the door? Or free flights? It looks like it's not that important because the Saud's (or anyone else) aren't doing much to enable it.

This is more like it, Bengali muslims leave Dhaka for Eid:

HomerJay wrote:I think it's different these days, the jet age has made long distance travel much more affordable.

Nonsense! What's the matter with riding a stick with an 'orse's 'ed 'andle donkey with a woman's head? Allah surely will provide transport.

i don't know about other countries but in malaysia going to hajj is a must,except if you're really poor, it's a once in a lifetime event and there are is a financial institution which is called Tabung Hajji http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabung_Haji
where people save their money up for the event.
many times the children will pay for the trip if the parents are already elderly,i've never been to hajj but from what i've heard the accommodations were usually quite simple.

cherries wrote:i don't know about other countries but in malaysia going to hajj is a must

But they still receive 1,000 visas per million muslims, although if they cut visas by 20% this year that's 800 per million.

So just 0.1% in any year, a 50 year window of pilgrimage offers the opportunity to 5% of the population in 50 years.

Do the malays have another mechanism for getting to Hajj? Otherwise how can it be a must?

cherries wrote:i've never been to hajj

I didn't realise you were a muslim.

they must try,if there aren't sufficient funds or permits due to circumstance they can't control it wont be accounted to them.
there are only so many permits which can be issued,when it's time for hajj that place is completely crowded,so they just can't accomadate more.
i'm ex-muslim.

Well, Christianity is centuries older than Islam so there's still time to invent a virtual hajj, like the virtual attendance at papal masses to get absolution via smartphone

It's one of the five pillars of Islam. So it's important. These are the five obligations imposed on every Muslim:

From Wikipedia:

They make up Muslim life, prayer, concern for the needy, self purification and the pilgrimage. They are:
Shahadah: declaring there is no god except God, and Muhammad is God's Messenger
Salat: ritual prayer five times a day
Sawm: fasting and self-control during the blessed month of Ramadan
Zakat: giving 2.5% of one’s savings to the poor and needy
Hajj: pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime[5][6] if he/she is able to do[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam

Agrippina wrote:It's one of the five pillars of Islam. So it's important.

Didn't read the OP, then?

cherries wrote:they must try,if there aren't sufficient funds or permits due to circumstance they can't control it wont be accounted to them.
there are only so many permits which can be issued,when it's time for hajj that place is completely crowded,so they just can't accomadate more.

So when you say it's a must, what does that mean?

They must try but given that greater than 95% fail it's OK to fail?

If they save but buy a car instead do they go to hell?

HomerJay wrote:

Agrippina wrote:It's one of the five pillars of Islam. So it's important.

Didn't read the OP, then?

I did, but short term memory, I'd forgotten half of it by the time I read through the rest of the thread. Sorry.

I can understand the numbers declining. Not even the cost of travelling there, the idea of Syria and Egypt nearby and violence overrunning the whole area, I would imagine there are also a lot of people in the west who see it as hardly the way they would want to spend their annual holiday, when there are far more interesting, fun, and cheap places to go to.

HomerJay wrote:So when you say it's a must, what does that mean?

They must try but given that greater than 95% fail it's OK to fail?

If they save but buy a car instead do they go to hell?

it means from how i understand it that as a muslim they have to try to save enough money to go to hajj before they die,while still maintaining a descent standard of living.
alone in the year 2009 26,000 malays went to hajj,so out of one million people(that includes everyone) ,1000 are eligible.
and no,they wont be going to hell if it's beyond their control.

http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemaah_Haji_Malaysia_2009

A muslim guy I know goes on Hajj every year.

Usualy Ibiza.

Very spiritual, very Bacardi Breezery.

cherries wrote:

HomerJay wrote:So when you say it's a must, what does that mean?

They must try but given that greater than 95% fail it's OK to fail?

If they save but buy a car instead do they go to hell?

it means from how i understand it that as a muslim they have to try to save enough money to go to hajj before they die,while still maintaining a descent standard of living.
alone in the year 2009 26,000 malays went to hajj,so out of one million people(that includes everyone) ,1000 are eligible.
and no,they wont be going to hell if it's beyond their control.

http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemaah_Haji_Malaysia_2009

Yes, but when you say it's a must that implies there is a duty to actually do it, (and that people actually do it) not just dream about it.