Hello everyone,
I just happened to stumble across this website and decided to take a look around the Mathematics Section for a moment.
The variety of funny and interesting topics I discovered made me join the "Lifeboat".

Some words about myself:
As you may have noticed, Im still rather young compared to the majority of this forums "population".
But seeing as how this forum has the word "Rational" in it´s name, I am rather positive that my age won´t flood your head with some good old prejudices about todays youth.

Concering my Forum Name, I choose it because I am a vegan and my daily life is composed of people complaining about that. I really can´t understand how people associate this type of diet with esoteric beliefs and all those things. People should better try to make some valid points why liking animals is irrational to them before questioning the vegan style of life.

I already am an atheist so there is no need to save me from the evil claws of religion. But I am interested in many types of exotic religions nevertheless, as they are most likely an important part of their society´s culture.


That´s basically it for my introduction. I hope that my time will be well spend discussing in this forum.

Hi and welcome onboard

Hi!

Welcome!

Welcome!

A very big warm welcome from South America

RationalVegan wrote: People should better try to make some valid points why liking animals is irrational to them before questioning the vegan style of life.

Hi

You might want to rephrase the above, but I think what you mean is that people should first justify meat eating before questioning vegans, pretty much opposite to your words.

My point would be that judging by your post, it would appear that you consider yourself to be defined by your diet, in much the same way a fundamentalist considers themselves to be defined by their faith.

How would you justify that, considering that most people just get on with their lives and eat what they consider normal, without it having the slightest bearing on their day-to-day life philosophy or how they identify themselves personally or within society?

Don't get me wrong, I am not prescribing to you or criticising your choices, just observing that the mind-set is, compared to the average person, perhaps what would amount to a fixation, so perhaps it is not the default omnivore without an eating philosophy that should be doing the justifications when the topic of your diet comes up? What do you think?

In addition, nature shows quite clearly that animals will eat whatever is available to them and compatible with their digestion in order to survive. Given an abundance, they will probably eat little but their favourite food. Why should we be different, except to add a bit of wisdom in terms of variety and moderation?

Servus und willkommen auf Ratskep.

I hope you'll enjoy your time here.

Welcome to RatsKeps


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- Sent from my iPhone using Magic, or somesuch.

Hi, RationalVegan, and a big welcome.

We have always had some very bright young people on the forum, so don't feel daunted by your age. For all of us, this is a very good place to hone our discussions and arguments. If anyone gives you a hard time, argue back!

Welcome neighbour! Make yourself at home

Thanks to everyone for replying.

Hi

You might want to rephrase the above, but I think what you mean is that people should first justify meat eating before questioning vegans, pretty much opposite to your words.

Sorry to say, but that was not what I was trying to express. I was trying to tell the exact thing that I wrote.
Many people think this way:

Vegan = Esoteric/Crazy/Unnecesary/Not healthy=Unreasonable

But to me it is:

Vegan = Caring for Animals

If you mix both up, you would get:

Caring for Animals = Unreasonable

So basically, if people tell me that it is unreasonable to be a vegan, I reply that being a Vegan does not express anything other about your personality than liking animals. So if they want to continue calling veganism unreasonable, they would have to prove me that:

Caring for Animals = Unreasonable

My point would be that judging by your post, it would appear that you consider yourself to be defined by your diet, in much the same way a fundamentalist considers themselves to be defined by their faith.

That is not entirely true. I consider myself to be defined by associations people have to my diet.

Don't get me wrong, I am not prescribing to you or criticising your choices, just observing that the mind-set is, compared to the average person, perhaps what would amount to a fixation, so perhaps it is not the default omnivore without an eating philosophy that should be doing the justifications when the topic of your diet comes up? What do you think?

Aside from that I did not want to express that people who eat meat need to justify themselves, the problem here is who causes such a discussion to start.
Even if those people have no "Eating Philosophy", they are the ones bringing it up as a topic which needs to be discussed.

In addition, nature shows quite clearly that animals will eat whatever is available to them and compatible with their digestion in order to survive. Given an abundance, they will probably eat little but their favourite food. Why should we be different, except to add a bit of wisdom in terms of variety and moderation?

In nature, Animals hunt, kill and then devour each other. If humans were to stand up, grab some spears and swords and hunt for their food, it would be okay. But we breed animals in huge factories with awful living conditions to eat them. That is not natural.

Welcome to the forum!

Sorry to say but caring for animals is not a monopoly run by vegans. This however in no way implies that caring for animals might not lead one to veganism, or course it might.

Welcome to RatSkep, RationalVegan, from a rational vegetarian! I hope you enjoy your time here. Why not pop along to the Vegetarian Chat thread where you'll find a bunch of us vegans and vegetarians?

Hello from Brisbane, Australia, and welcome into the lifeboat ! If you haven't seen it already, you may want to take a look at our New Members' Welcome Pack which will give you a few useful resources and contains our forum rules.

As a house warming present for you, here's a few laughs for your entertainment.



Durro

Nora_Leonard wrote:We have always had some very bright young people on the forum, so don't feel daunted by your age. For all of us, this is a very good place to hone our discussions and arguments. If anyone gives you a hard time, argue back!

Welcome aboard the lifeboat!

Welcome to the lifeboat.

RationalVegan wrote:Many people think this way:

Vegan = Esoteric/Crazy/Unnecesary/Not healthy=Unreasonable

I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone here that holds such a view.

But to me it is:

Vegan = Caring for Animals

Explicit category error there. A vegan is somebody who doesn't imbibe animal by-products. The motivations for this could be any of a number of things, including allergies, revulsion to animals (indeed, one could easily take the greatest pleasure from killing animals while still being vegan) to name but two.

If you mix both up, you would get:

Caring for Animals = Unreasonable

Well, this rests on the category error made above, so it doesn't really hold water. Certainly, it could be said that a major motivation for veganism is one of having empathy with animals, but it is certainly not a defining characteristic, being neither sufficient nor necessary.

So basically, if people tell me that it is unreasonable to be a vegan, I reply that being a Vegan does not express anything other about your personality than liking animals. So if they want to continue calling veganism unreasonable, they would have to prove me that:

Caring for Animals = Unreasonable

Again, this is rooted in the earlier category error. However, focussing for a moment on the bolded bit, and ignoring the same mistake in that, let's contrast that to your next response:

That is not entirely true. I consider myself to be defined by associations people have to my diet.

Which directly contradicts your earlier assertion. How can veganism not express anything about your personality except the erroneous conflation of it with liking animals (indeed, lacking rigour as that statement does, it could easily be turned on its head thus: I must like animals, because I don't eat things I don't like) and yet still constitute something that you feel defines you, even if only by other people, which brings me to my next point.

Do you really consider anything about yourself to be defined by the perceptions of others? Do you not see the danger inherent in such a view? The perceptions of others, and indeed of oneself, are quite probably the worst guide to just about anything other than what people perceive. The scientific literature is replete with examples of just how misleading perception can be.

In nature, Animals hunt, kill and then devour each other. If humans were to stand up, grab some spears and swords and hunt for their food, it would be okay. But we breed animals in huge factories with awful living conditions to eat them. That is not natural.

Ah, so organisation is not natural? How about beavers building dams? Indeed, in your own example of what would be OK, you shoot your own assertion in the foot. Are swords and spears natural? How about the twigs that chimpanzees employ to root out termites from trees?

The commission of the naturalistic fallacy here is pretty clear for all to see. The implication is that what is natural is good, while what is not natural is bad. Along with this is the implication that there is any such thing as 'not natural'.

In any event, how about in vitro meat? Would you eat that? Or does that fall under whatever definition of 'unnatural' you are operating from, and therefore constitute 'bad'.

Anyhoo, I fully respect your choice not to consume animal by-products, and indeed it is something I have considered myself in the past, although ultimately I enjoy bacon butties too much and don't possess the will. My motivation here is, as always, only to expose woolly thinking.

Welcome.

stijndeloose wrote:

Nora_Leonard wrote:We have always had some very bright young people on the forum, so don't feel daunted by your age. For all of us, this is a very good place to hone our discussions and arguments. If anyone gives you a hard time, argue back!

Welcome aboard the lifeboat!

+1.

I miss Big Brother.

Welcome!

Aloha, RV. Welcome aboard.

I like animals to, with A1, barbeque and fresh lemon depending on the species.