kennyc wrote:Yes, this is as big a problem - income inequity (see the 1% thread) as any we face IMO, including population and global warming...

Certainly the resources tied up by these people are unavailable to help solve the problems created by the system that allowed them to accumulate such power in the first place.

We know that people with better education and reasonable wealth are also less prone to have large families.

None of these are 'natural disasters' but culturally created ones.

Multimillionaire Kevin O’Leary reacts: "That's fantastic news! Of course I applaud it. It inspires everybody to look up to the 1% and say 'I want to become one of them' ".


WARNING: you'll want to punch your screen !

There is a war coming....
unlike any we have ever seen....

"Fantastic news!"

To the original heading of this thread I will simply say "So what?"

We often hear protests about how people in countries like Thailand and Indonesia make a pittance for their work, which is why a lot of goods are made there. We are somehow supposed to think this is terrible.

You cannot compare western economies and wages to wages of poor countries...it's a useless exercise and will lead to nothing.
In some countries, a "good weekly wage" for a skilled worker may only be equivalent to what someone in a western country might make in an hour. However, the cost of living is so much lower in those countries, so their low (from our perspective) wages are perfectly normal to them. The very same people who will be complaining about "low wages" in Asian countries will be the ones who go there on holidays and rave about how a good meal cost a few dollars, beer is dirt cheap, hotels cost bugger all, and the staff is overwhelming in number. I have a workmate who goes to Thailand every six months or so, and shops in the "locals" supermarkets where you don't see foreigners. The prices are stupid, and seem ludicrously small to us, but if you were on a few dollars a day, it would seem comparable to what we pay here on our wages.
In our country, you couldn't ever hope to live on a few dollars a day...but in those "poorer" countries, a few dollars a day can produce a reasonable standard of living.

It's not just "poor countries"...when we were in the USA, we were amazed by prices...petrol was about the equivalent of 80 cents a liter (Australian money, when back home we were paying nearly double that), food was cheap, shopping was fairly cheap! We thought it was awesome! But then I realised that to people on a wage of maybe ten bucks an hour, it would compare fairly closely to what we pay here for fuel, food, and general shopping.

Comparing wages, living conditions, and money in the bank of people in the west to those in poor countries is futile and, frankly, not worth even worrying about. Different countries, different standards of living, completely different economic structures. The two cannot in any way be compared.

johnbrandt wrote:To the original heading of this thread I will simply say "So what?"

We often hear protests about how people in countries like Thailand and Indonesia make a pittance for their work, which is why a lot of goods are made there. We are somehow supposed to think this is terrible.

Yes.

johnbrandt wrote: You cannot compare western economies and wages to wages of poor countries

Yes you can, and we do.

johnbrandt wrote:...it's a useless exercise and will lead to nothing.

It is a useful exercise, it leads to increasing awareness of the screwed, grotesque and almost criminal level to which wealth can accumulate in a few individuals who either can't or often won't even spend it on anything other than ever more fancy and out of proportion homes to live in and vehicles to transport themselves around with.

johnbrandt wrote:In some countries, a "good weekly wage" for a skilled worker may only be equivalent to what someone in a western country might make in an hour. However, the cost of living is so much lower in those countries, so their low (from our perspective) wages are perfectly normal to them.

And the reason their cost of living is so much lower is, among other reasons, also because their living conditions are utter fucking shit. Try sleeping in a gutter or a pile of cardboard boxes and going to work to glue semiconductors and micrchips on a print, then getting paid your pretty much worthless salary for working yourself to death in a factory with no safety regulations or oversight, no pension, no holidays or anything we seem to take for granted.

Sorry, I can't even respond to the rest of your idiotic shit. It's the most terrible, idiotic, dehumanizing shit I've read in a long time. It's dawning upon me just why it is you have such a hard time with the whole global warming thing, you're comfortable where you are, and you just can't stand the thought that you might have to adjust anything of your cozy daily routines that some silly brown guy somewhere in indonesia doesn't have to sleep on a ricemat. Who gives a shit about him? After all, to him, his circumstance is "normal"!

Why'd we even bother ending slavery? To those who grew up with it, it was "normal". We can't, after all, "compare the two".

You disgust me. Honestly, you make me sick, and you're quite obviously a piece of shit human being. I'll gladly take sanctions to state this. In fact, johnbrandt, Fuck you.

Just an FYI but the two groups that are the subject of this thread have BOTH been doing pretty damn well for the past 20 years:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_ins ... rowth.html

Rumraket wrote:

johnbrandt wrote:To the original heading of this thread I will simply say "So what?"

We often hear protests about how people in countries like Thailand and Indonesia make a pittance for their work, which is why a lot of goods are made there. We are somehow supposed to think this is terrible.

Yes.

johnbrandt wrote: You cannot compare western economies and wages to wages of poor countries

Yes you can, and we do.

johnbrandt wrote:...it's a useless exercise and will lead to nothing.

It is a useful exercise, it leads to increasing awareness of the screwed, grotesque and almost criminal level to which wealth can accumulate in a few individuals who either can't or often won't even spend it on anything other than ever more fancy and out of proportion homes to live in and vehicles to transport themselves around with.

johnbrandt wrote:In some countries, a "good weekly wage" for a skilled worker may only be equivalent to what someone in a western country might make in an hour. However, the cost of living is so much lower in those countries, so their low (from our perspective) wages are perfectly normal to them.

And the reason their cost of living is so much lower is, among other reasons, also because their living conditions are utter fucking shit. Try sleeping in a gutter or a pile of cardboard boxes and going to work to glue semiconductors and micrchips on a print, then getting paid your pretty much worthless salary for working yourself to death in a factory with no safety regulations or oversight, no pension, no holidays or anything we seem to take for granted.

Sorry, I can't even respond to the rest of your idiotic shit. It's the most terrible, idiotic, dehumanizing shit I've read in a long time. It's dawning upon me just why it is you have such a hard time with the whole global warming thing, you're comfortable where you are, and you just can't stand the thought that you might have to adjust anything of your cozy daily routines that some silly brown guy somewhere in indonesia doesn't have to sleep on a ricemat. Who gives a shit about him? After all, to him, his circumstance is "normal"!

Why'd we even bother ending slavery? To those who grew up with it, it was "normal". We can't, after all, "compare the two".

You disgust me. Honestly, you make me sick, and you're quite obviously a piece of shit human being. I'll gladly take sanctions to state this. In fact, johnbrandt, Fuck you.

I could not agree more, I will also take a hit as well.

Touched a nerve there...the harsh facts of life don't suit some people who think the world should be some big everybody-is-equal-in-all-ways (economically I mean, not human rights, that's another issue altogether) dreamland that can, in practical terms, never be, given differences in national economics.

So whose standard of living changes...? Do western countries lower ours to suit the worlds lower income nations, or do we (somehow, which is never explained in any sensible detail) raise theirs to match ours?
How do we address the fact that every countries currency is different and some are worth more than others on the world money markets and because of internal economic differences?

I suppose we could throw out the entire world economy and start again, with one world currency and a dollar here being worth the same as a dollar somewhere else, but how would that change things? Would it change anything?

If anyone suggested that JB, then quote them. In almost every post of yours on Ratskep you simply make up what others are saying.

My 2c is that we should keep trading with 3rd world countries, but instead of ripping them off, pay a few dollars more to ensure they have the same working conditions you would expect an Australian to have. At least the basics like a safe working environment and a liveable wage. But we'll never legislate that because we are cowards, afraid to spend a few extra dollars to make such a huge difference.

The things that attract businesses to poor countries are factors like low wages.

If you take those factors away, you take away a major incentive to invest in them.

Things like uneducated workforces and unreliable institutions and inefficient supply chains are things that keep people away.

Attracting investment is one of the things that allows those dis-incentives to be fixed and allows poorer countries to attract higher-paying work.

Wages in places like China have grown as a result of factors like initially being able to attract investment with extremely low-cost labor.

An investigative journalist recently went to Bangladesh to see where our clothes are being made. People die in these factories every month due to fires and the like, simple safety standards are enforced by some factories there but our corporations sometimes deliberately avoid those ones to avoid paying a premium of a few extra cents for every product.

The wages can still be extremely low and safety can still be enforced. But there needs to be a push from the government. The boards of Australian public companies are full of psychopaths who don't see a problem with any of this. If you can't afford to make products in a safe environment then don't make the product. (I'm sure the reality is that they can)

Loren Michael wrote:The things that attract businesses to poor countries are factors like low wages.

If you take those factors away, you take away a major incentive to invest in them.

Very true. Some people seem to think however that businesses that look for overseas places to produce goods for them shouldn't care about the bottom line and should just do business "at any cost". Shareholders will love that.

Things like uneducated workforces and unreliable institutions and inefficient supply chains are things that keep people away.

Attracting investment is one of the things that allows those dis-incentives to be fixed and allows poorer countries to attract higher-paying work.

Wages in places like China have grown as a result of factors like initially being able to attract investment with extremely low-cost labor.

China has been a good example in how things can be done.
However, if some smaller countries (in size, if not populations) try to raise production cost by increasing wages for workers, then business will simply look to a neighbouring country that doesn't raise it's workers wages and conditions.

Not to mention that "paying a few dollars extra" is a good idea...but only a person wearing the most rose-tinted of glasses would believe that the companies in a lot of countries wouldn't just pocket the money themselves and keep paying low wages. It's like pouring foreign aid into some African countries where nothing seems to change for the populace...but by gee they suddenly have very well equipped militaries and the dictator in charge has a nice fleet of Mercedes limos...

It's not as simple as "give them some more money". Huge changes need to be made over there in the way they do business and treat workers, and there's not necessarily a lot we can do from our end apart from try to encourage them to do so.

Which was not what I was suggesting, which you would have figured out if you bothered to ask me first. FFS, "rose tinted glasses", how about "filter inside my head that translates everything I read into what I want to hear because I'm not intellectually capable of critically assessing any argument that disagrees with my ridiculous preconception of how the world is supposed to work".

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:An investigative journalist recently went to Bangladesh to see where our clothes are being made. People die in these factories every month due to fires and the like, simple safety standards are enforced by some factories there but our corporations sometimes deliberately avoid those ones to avoid paying a premium of a few extra cents for every product.

This same paragraph could have been written about China just ten or twenty years ago. I'm sure in some parts of China it would still be valid in many ways. Starting from dirt-poor is never pretty. The mistake is in thinking that a snapshot of bad conditions are how things have always been and always will be absent some sort of specific action.

Sometimes, sure, there's a poverty trap that never gets better. As noted in that chart I posted above though, often the bad conditions are an improvement on previous even worse conditions, and often they get even better over a short timespan assuming investment is allowed and encouraged.

johnbrandt wrote:...... Shareholders will love that.
....

Which is the 'real' problem, fucking corporations.

In fact it's the same problem. The rich (corporations) taking advantage of the poor. It's bullshit.

If the poor die, if the world is destroyed to increase shareholder value we all fucking lose.

http://www.economicpopulist.org/content ... picks=true

Loren Michael wrote:

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:An investigative journalist recently went to Bangladesh to see where our clothes are being made. People die in these factories every month due to fires and the like, simple safety standards are enforced by some factories there but our corporations sometimes deliberately avoid those ones to avoid paying a premium of a few extra cents for every product.

This same paragraph could have been written about China just ten or twenty years ago. I'm sure in some parts of China it would still be valid in many ways. Starting from dirt-poor is never pretty. The mistake is in thinking that a snapshot of bad conditions are how things have always been and always will be absent some sort of specific action.

Sometimes, sure, there's a poverty trap that never gets better. As noted in that chart I posted above though, often the bad conditions are an improvement on previous even worse conditions, and often they get even better over a short timespan assuming investment is allowed and encouraged.

People/corporations investing in worker safety? Pshaww!

Get real, dude.

johnbrandt wrote:To the original heading of this thread I will simply say "So what?"

We often hear protests about how people in countries like Thailand and Indonesia make a pittance for their work, which is why a lot of goods are made there. We are somehow supposed to think this is terrible.

Some people are very Western-centric. Their thought process boils down to: I wouldn't like to earn $1 an hour, therefore nobody should earn $1 an hour. It's really breathtakingly arrogant. They appear to have no concept of the need for economies to evolve through a variety of stages before people can be enjoying the type of conditions and earning the kind of money we earn here. Indeed, "economic creationism" would be an apposite term to describe the mindset.

Except that economies, unlike biological systems, are entities we humans erected and control. As a corollary, if the relevant will is exerted to spread the wealth generated thereby more evenly, this can be done. Unfortunately, the will being exerted in many economies is in the reverse direction, namely to concentrate wealth in the hands of a very fortunate few, whilst the rest of us are left to try and build something resembling a living standard from the crumbs left behind after the corporate robber barons have pigged out in the caviar and champagne trough.

Oh, and what precisely is purportedly "wrong" with wanting to see the unfortunate millions languishing on $1 per day, being brought up to the point where their labours are valued at $8 per hour instead, and they also have access to clean water, sustainably productive agriculture and decent standards of healthcare? If it means that the corporate robber barons have to make do with one Bentley per year instead of six, then I can't see this as being a major imposition.

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:

Loren Michael wrote:

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:An investigative journalist recently went to Bangladesh to see where our clothes are being made. People die in these factories every month due to fires and the like, simple safety standards are enforced by some factories there but our corporations sometimes deliberately avoid those ones to avoid paying a premium of a few extra cents for every product.

This same paragraph could have been written about China just ten or twenty years ago. I'm sure in some parts of China it would still be valid in many ways. Starting from dirt-poor is never pretty. The mistake is in thinking that a snapshot of bad conditions are how things have always been and always will be absent some sort of specific action.

Sometimes, sure, there's a poverty trap that never gets better. As noted in that chart I posted above though, often the bad conditions are an improvement on previous even worse conditions, and often they get even better over a short timespan assuming investment is allowed and encouraged.

People/corporations investing in worker safety? Pshaww!

Get real, dude.

Chinese conditions including wages have been steadily improving and the worst jobs are moving to poorer places like Bangladesh. That's real.