Boy, 12, dies after being shot in the stomach by cops

NuclMan · **#161** by **NuclMan** » Nov 27, 2014 10:28 pm

Griz_ wrote:Which is the real gun? You have 5 seconds.....

Guns don't kill people.

Video didn't change my mind either. Why did they drive up so close, so quickly, when for minutes before the kid is just sitting there with nobody around him? And at what point exactly were they instructing him to put his hands up? While driving?

Jerome Da Gnome · **#162** by **Jerome Da Gnome** » Nov 27, 2014 10:30 pm

willhud9 wrote:

Quite. Virginia is an open carry state as well, but if a man were to place his hand on his gun that single gesture can be constituted as a threat.

lol, No. Police in Virgina are accustom to people having guns, they don't shoot people that have their hand on their holstered weapon.

Jerome Da Gnome · **#163** by **Jerome Da Gnome** » Nov 27, 2014 10:37 pm

Griz wrote:If I'm out shooting or hunting or in a place where a firearm is normal, I do not fear it. If a stranger walks onto my property with a firearm, I'm watching his body language and I may or not fear him. If I'm walking down the street and a guy has a holstered pistol, I don't fear him. But if he's looking me in the eye and draws it as I approach him - yeah, I'm concerned. Is this any different than you? Really?

Sure, but that circumstance is dramatically different than what occurred here.

What occurred here is people came to the victims 'home' and began shooting immediately upon arrival.

Griz_ · **#164** by **Griz_** » Nov 27, 2014 10:39 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
Griz_ wrote:[size=150]Which is the real gun? You have 5 seconds

Doesn't matter because he did not point the gun at the police.

Griz_ wrote:

I do not expect a police officer to wait until the firearm is actually pointed at him before he responds.

willhud9 · **#165** by **willhud9** » Nov 27, 2014 10:39 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
willhud9 wrote:

Quite. Virginia is an open carry state as well, but if a man were to place his hand on his gun that single gesture can be constituted as a threat.

lol, No. Police in Virgina are accustom to people having guns, they don't shoot people that have their hand on their holstered weapon.

Bzz. Wrong. The moment your hands goes on the gun the officer's gun will be drawn and immediately on you. In that second if you make a move that is even close to moving that gun you will be shot. Go on and ask any police officers in Virginia on what protocol is for lethal force.

I had an encounter with an officer when I was shooting my air pellet gun at cans in my backyard about 5 years ago. An officer got called out because a neighbour didn't know any better and I hear from behind me, "Police. Put the weapon on the ground and turn around slowly." The officer had his firearm out and on me. I can be certain that if I had turned with the weapon still in my hand I would have been shot. Once the situation was explained the officer was apologetic and let me go.

Now this 12 year old boy got shot and you think the police wanted to shoot the 12 year old? Or the police had itchy trigger finger? No. I can imagine the misery the officer feels about taking a human life, let alone a 12 year old one. But when an officer's life is on the line that seconds hesitation can indeed and does often cost officer lives.

Jerome Da Gnome · **#166** by **Jerome Da Gnome** » Nov 27, 2014 10:42 pm

Pebble wrote:Nevertheless you do wonder how this would have played out in the States?

In the vast majority of cases, no one would have been harmed. The trouble is we seem to be moving towards a shoot first approach.

A major problem is people are being denied becoming a police officer based upon scoring too highly on intelligence tests. This is asinine.

Jerome Da Gnome · **#167** by **Jerome Da Gnome** » Nov 27, 2014 10:43 pm

Griz_ wrote:

I do not expect a police officer to wait until the firearm is actually pointed at him before he responds.

This is problematic. Camel's nose and all that.

Jerome Da Gnome · **#168** by **Jerome Da Gnome** » Nov 27, 2014 10:48 pm

Griz_ wrote:The officer perceived a lethal threat and he responded.

I don't think we really want a society in which armed government agents have the right to kill based upon a perceived lethal threat.

We don't want our government agents soo afraid of an armed citizenry that they are shooting just because they see a gun.

Jerome Da Gnome · **#169** by **Jerome Da Gnome** » Nov 27, 2014 10:53 pm

willhud9 wrote: I hear from behind me, "Police. Put the weapon on the ground and turn around slowly." The officer had his firearm out and on me.

That is not what happened here. Your circumstance is more like the Brown case, where the officer was fully announced and gave legal instructions. Brown attacked him, here the officer has the obligation to protect himself and the citizenry.

ElDiablo · **#170** by **ElDiablo** » Nov 27, 2014 10:56 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
Griz wrote:If I'm out shooting or hunting or in a place where a firearm is normal, I do not fear it. If a stranger walks onto my property with a firearm, I'm watching his body language and I may or not fear him. If I'm walking down the street and a guy has a holstered pistol, I don't fear him. But if he's looking me in the eye and draws it as I approach him - yeah, I'm concerned. Is this any different than you? Really?

Sure, but that circumstance is dramatically different than what occurred here.

What occurred here is people came to the victims 'home' and began shooting immediately upon arrival.

You're right, it was exactly like he was sitting in his own home minding his own business playing with his Airsoft pistol and all of the sudden out of nowhere police show up for god-knows-why and shoot the hinges off his door and proceed to execute him. It was exactly like that, except for some minor difference in details.

Dude, you should write for the Enquirer.

Jerome Da Gnome · **#171** by **Jerome Da Gnome** » Nov 27, 2014 10:59 pm

willhud9 wrote:
Now this 12 year old boy got shot and you think the police wanted to shoot the 12 year old? Or the police had itchy trigger finger? No. I can imagine the misery the officer feels about taking a human life, let alone a 12 year old one. But when an officer's life is on the line that seconds hesitation can indeed and does often cost officer lives.

I think the young officer was ganked up by the call which was "gun", and he didn't react properly. Sad for him too, he most probably wanted to kill someone never. This is what I am talking about with military training instead of community peace officer training.

They rolled up like a movie scene, jumping out and shooting all in one motion. If that is the training, the training is wrong.

Griz_ · **#172** by **Griz_** » Nov 27, 2014 11:02 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
Griz wrote:If I'm out shooting or hunting or in a place where a firearm is normal, I do not fear it. If a stranger walks onto my property with a firearm, I'm watching his body language and I may or not fear him. If I'm walking down the street and a guy has a holstered pistol, I don't fear him. But if he's looking me in the eye and draws it as I approach him - yeah, I'm concerned. Is this any different than you? Really?

Sure, but that circumstance is dramatically different than what occurred here.

What occurred here is people came to the victims 'home' and began shooting immediately upon arrival.

Obviously this is a public space, and "stand your ground" sorts of rationalization do not apply here, if that's where you're going. Even with a lawfully owned firearm, and certainly not with a police officer.

He saw the police officers approaching and chose to put the gun in his waistband. A bad decision but not the one that determined his fate. It has been reported that the officer shouted three times for him to raise his hands. This is standard police procedure everywhere and I believe that this occurred. He instead went for the gun. Another bad decision and the one that ultimately cost him his life. As has been pointed out already, a police officer is not required to wait until a gun is pointed at him before responding.

There is a lot of second guessing of that decision but the officer reacted as he was trained. And now I'll piss everyone off even further and state that although every use of force incident results in a review and often recommendation for changes to policy, this incident will not and should not change anything.

Jerome Da Gnome · **#173** by **Jerome Da Gnome** » Nov 27, 2014 11:02 pm

willhud9 wrote: But when an officer's life is on the line that seconds hesitation can indeed and does often cost officer lives.

We really don't want to be weighting the value of the lives of the individuals here, do we?

Griz_ · **#174** by **Griz_** » Nov 27, 2014 11:05 pm

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
Griz_ wrote:The officer perceived a lethal threat and he responded.

I don't think we really want a society in which armed government agents have the right to kill based upon a perceived lethal threat.

We don't want our government agents soo afraid of an armed citizenry that they are shooting just because they see a gun.

Nor do I, but that's not what happened.

Jerome Da Gnome · **#175** by **Jerome Da Gnome** » Nov 27, 2014 11:13 pm

Griz_ wrote:It has been reported that the officer shouted three times for him to raise his hands.

Maybe as and after he was shooting.

The guy jumps out of the car and is shooting all in one motion.

Spearthrower · **#176** by **Spearthrower** » Nov 28, 2014 4:36 am

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Jerome Da Gnome wrote:Note that Ohio is an open carry state. It is legal to carry a gun openly.

Legal to carry =/= legal to point it at people.

The police did not see him point his pellet gun at anyone, and even if they were able to make a case that he was, it is not an execution on sight offense.

I never remotely claimed that it was an execution on sight offense, as if such a thing exists in the first place.

Instead, they had reports of a guy with a gun, when they arrived they saw the gun on the table, saw him put it in his waist-band, when told to put his hands up, he reached for the gun - they shot him, he later died.

For it to be an execution there would need to be 2 things:

1) He would need to have been in their power - not free to act
2) They would have had to have intended to kill him.

So, regardless of your emotive rhetoric, this doesn't qualify as an execution.

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:You are ignoring our basic societal legal structure.

Actually, as per fucking usual, you are making up positions for your interlocutors. Try responding to what is said rather that what you would prefer people to have said.

Spearthrower · **#177** by **Spearthrower** » Nov 28, 2014 4:36 am

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
Griz_ wrote:[size=150]Which is the real gun? You have 5 seconds

Doesn't matter because he did not point the gun at the police.

This is not a gun-slinging competition - he went for the gun; they're hardly going to wait for him to point it at them.

Spearthrower · **#178** by **Spearthrower** » Nov 28, 2014 4:37 am

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
willhud9 wrote:

Quite. Virginia is an open carry state as well, but if a man were to place his hand on his gun that single gesture can be constituted as a threat.

lol, No. Police in Virgina are accustom to people having guns, they don't shoot people that have their hand on their holstered weapon.

Don't believe you.

Spearthrower · **#179** by **Spearthrower** » Nov 28, 2014 4:38 am

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
Pebble wrote:Nevertheless you do wonder how this would have played out in the States?

In the vast majority of cases, no one would have been harmed. The trouble is we seem to be moving towards a shoot first approach.

This is a major concern.

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:A major problem is people are being denied becoming a police officer based upon scoring too highly on intelligence tests. This is asinine.

This is la-la-land.

purplerat · **#180** by **purplerat** » Nov 28, 2014 4:39 am

Jerome Da Gnome wrote:
Griz_ wrote:The officer perceived a lethal threat and he responded.

I don't think we really want a society in which armed government agents have the right to kill based upon a perceived lethal threat.

We don't want our government agents soo afraid of an armed citizenry that they are shooting just because they see a gun.

It seems you're mostly just bothered that it's a government official that shot him.

Let's say it's the same situation. A person is walking around in public pointing a gun at people and this is reported to another armed citizen who decides to approach that person to see what's going on. As he's approaching this person who is acting erratically with a gun in public that person makes and aggressive movement towards his gun which can be reasonably justified as a lethal threat. Does the armed citizen have a right to return with lethal force to protect him self? If so then why should somebody lose that right just because they are employed by the government?

Boy, 12, dies after being shot in the stomach by cops

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