Scot Dutchy wrote:They are still under sovereign control but subject to EU approval. Countries cant do what they like.
If they had done the same as Ireland, Portugal and Spain did they would have been by now back in growth but that was not good enough for them. They wanted more and now the shit is deeper.

Transparency International said on Wednesday that Greece’s ranking on perceived levels of public corruption was still the worst in the EU – albeit on a par with Italy – even if it had improved from 94th place at the height of the debt crisis in 2012 to 69th this year.

Five years on, Greeks are still cheating, bribing and evading their taxes – spurred on by the lack of punishment meted out to offenders.

Since the financial meltdown, only one senior politician, the former defence minister, Akis Tsochatzopoulos, has been imprisoned partly because the scale of his avarice made his ill-gotten gains difficult to hide. Last month, the erstwhile finance minister Yiannos Papantoniou was given a suspended four-year jail term for producing a false declaration of assets and revenues. But with the exception of Thessaloniki’s ex-mayor, who was found guilty of embezzlement and imprisoned for life, they are the only high-ranking officials to have paid the price of breach of duty.

Thommo wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:They are still under sovereign control but subject to EU approval. Countries cant do what they like.
If they had done the same as Ireland, Portugal and Spain did they would have been by now back in growth but that was not good enough for them. They wanted more and now the shit is deeper.

Greece was back in growth. Tsipras ended that.

“It’s a vicious circle. Nothing gets done any more because it’s so much more difficult to bribe civil servants,” complained one octogenarian, who admitted he found himself hankering for the bad old days. “In the past, bribes ensured a degree of efficiency. Now nothing works.”

tuco wrote:Leaving the eurozone does not mean leaving the EU. The referendum is about whether or not the creditors proposal should be accepted. Bankruptcy and return to drachma is another matter. But total chaos?

tuco wrote:Essence? What is the question asked?

Darkchilde wrote:

Beatsong wrote:Wow Darkchilde that sounds grim.

Is there any way you could move to another EU country where your skills would be employable? Now while Greece is still part of the EU, I mean.

Fortunately, I have double citizenship as my father was italian and my mother is greek. I ahve sent 3 applications for jobs yesterday and 4 more today and will apply for more in the coming days. So, yes, I can get out much easier than a lot of other people."

Darkchilde wrote:

tuco wrote:Essence? What is the question asked?

the question is about the proposal. But the proposal is invalid. Either Greece had taken it until June 30th or it was no longer on the table. So even if the referendum is about the invalid proposal, in essence it is about EU and euro.

Scot Dutchy wrote:From Thommo's link:

“It’s a vicious circle. Nothing gets done any more because it’s so much more difficult to bribe civil servants,” complained one octogenarian, who admitted he found himself hankering for the bad old days. “In the past, bribes ensured a degree of efficiency. Now nothing works.”

And you wonder why they have problems.

minininja wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:

tuco wrote:Essence? What is the question asked?

the question is about the proposal. But the proposal is invalid. Either Greece had taken it until June 30th or it was no longer on the table. So even if the referendum is about the invalid proposal, in essence it is about EU and euro.

Are you suggesting that if the people vote "yes" the proposal will not immediately be put back on the table? It's just the European banks threatening and bullying Greece into not being allowed self-determination and democracy. If Greece votes "no", there's no mechanism in place for ejecting them from the eurozone, all it would do is force further negotiation, - which may eventually lead to Greece stepping away from the euro, but there's no reason it couldn't be a carefully managed with the drachma being brought in side-by-side until the currency was settled. It's impossibly hard but the only way to be free from the control of the banks is if the country together stands up against them.

Beatsong wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:From Thommo's link:

“It’s a vicious circle. Nothing gets done any more because it’s so much more difficult to bribe civil servants,” complained one octogenarian, who admitted he found himself hankering for the bad old days. “In the past, bribes ensured a degree of efficiency. Now nothing works.”

And you wonder why they have problems.

And yet you can't have it both ways. If the dude is complaining that there's so much LESS corruption now than before, you can't use that in support of the complaint that they haven't done anything about corruption and it's still sucking just as much money out.

Scot Dutchy wrote:

minininja wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:

tuco wrote:Essence? What is the question asked?

the question is about the proposal. But the proposal is invalid. Either Greece had taken it until June 30th or it was no longer on the table. So even if the referendum is about the invalid proposal, in essence it is about EU and euro.

Are you suggesting that if the people vote "yes" the proposal will not immediately be put back on the table? It's just the European banks threatening and bullying Greece into not being allowed self-determination and democracy. If Greece votes "no", there's no mechanism in place for ejecting them from the eurozone, all it would do is force further negotiation, - which may eventually lead to Greece stepping away from the euro, but there's no reason it couldn't be a carefully managed with the drachma being brought in side-by-side until the currency was settled. It's impossibly hard but the only way to be free from the control of the banks is if the country together stands up against them.

The only way to remove the control of the banks is to remove all corruption, accept the details of the agreement and pay back the loans. The "no" route would mean a complete disaster. Of course there is no mechanism to kick them out but Greece will be bankrupt. Who is going to negotiate about what. It is the end of the line.
What do you mean standing up against them? With what?
The drachma will be on a par with Zimbabwe's currency.

Scot Dutchy wrote:We are in the European Union John. A union! Inside that Union there is a smaller group that fulfilled the economic criteria to form the Eurozone. Having the same currency makes life a lot simpler and better for trade. It also protects currencies from attacks from speculators that is why right wing America hates the Euro.

Warren Dew wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:We are in the European Union John. A union! Inside that Union there is a smaller group that fulfilled the economic criteria to form the Eurozone. Having the same currency makes life a lot simpler and better for trade. It also protects currencies from attacks from speculators that is why right wing America hates the Euro.

It's not right wing Americans who made their billions on currency speculation. Blame that on left wing Americans, like Soros.

Darkchilde wrote:

Beatsong wrote:Wow Darkchilde that sounds grim.

Is there any way you could move to another EU country where your skills would be employable? Now while Greece is still part of the EU, I mean.

Fortunately, I have double citizenship as my father was italian and my mother is greek. I ahve sent 3 applications for jobs yesterday and 4 more today and will apply for more in the coming days. So, yes, I can get out much easier than a lot of other people.

Sendraks wrote:

minininja wrote:
But the difference is the federal taxes and redistribution between states.

Except that this only applies within the US and even with this system of redistribution, there are still significant differences in deprivation between the richer and poorer stats. Clearly the US system mitigates the worst of this problem, hence...

Scot Dutchy wrote:

mattthomas wrote:Using terms like "they" are great for distancing the reality that punitive measures enforced by European governments upon Greece are going to affect millions of people whose role in the economic failings equate to the square root of fuck all.

Why did not Greece accept the same package as Ireland, Spain and Portugal? It was not good enough for them. Sorry.
You dont accept that corruption was high very high in Greece? That only a tiny minority were involved?
Then you are deluded I am afraid. Corruption was rife throughout the Greek society.
It was not just the big boys it was all the way down.

Did you read what Darkchilde wrote? Even today the last vestiges are still holding out. Still refusing to see that they are the cause of the problem.