So why isn't all of this obvious to everyone else?

How is it that we all have access to the same information. It doesn't take long to look stuff up either and yet the truth gets twisted.

It's not complicated stuff either - this is easy peasy japanese. You look up the AHCA and then u see how fucked up it is for example. Job done - now you know what the republicans are like and why you're not voting them anymore. Democrats are massive pussy's so once you vote them in, you just need a few angry constiuents to threaten them and they'll fall in line with things like UHC LOL

The psychology of these contradictions is simply how our brains process information. Confirmation bias, incredulity, limited ability to generalize or abstract, mental laziness, tribalism, and a fucking lying media all contribute to the mess. The system is so corrupt that people think it has to be a conspiracy theory and can't be real is also a contributing factor. The idealized America people are sold in school is so far away from the reality of a nearly third world level corruption that it seems impossible.

Teague wrote:So why isn't all of this obvious to everyone else?

How is it that we all have access to the same information. It doesn't take long to look stuff up either and yet the truth gets twisted.

It's not complicated stuff either - this is easy peasy japanese. You look up the AHCA and then u see how fucked up it is for example. Job done - now you know what the republicans are like and why you're not voting them anymore. Democrats are massive pussy's so once you vote them in, you just need a few angry constiuents to threaten them and they'll fall in line with things like UHC LOL

There's a lot of ideology obscuring the basic facts.

A lot of USians just really, really want to believe that the free market can produce a more efficient (ie. lower cost and better outcomes) than "socialised" medicine. Possibly some kind of hangover from all the Cold War propaganda.

The truth, of course, is pretty much the opposite.

None of them get it, Dems or Repubs. Obamacare was a debacle, and the Republican "alternative" is no better and probably worse. Neither party will take even the most logical, sensible, first steps. Tort reform, selling insurance across state lines, negotiation of prescription prices - there are many things that could be done easily and quickly that would have an immediate effect. Do those things first, then start working on the rest of it.

Nicko wrote:

Teague wrote:So why isn't all of this obvious to everyone else?

How is it that we all have access to the same information. It doesn't take long to look stuff up either and yet the truth gets twisted.

It's not complicated stuff either - this is easy peasy japanese. You look up the AHCA and then u see how fucked up it is for example. Job done - now you know what the republicans are like and why you're not voting them anymore. Democrats are massive pussy's so once you vote them in, you just need a few angry constiuents to threaten them and they'll fall in line with things like UHC LOL

There's a lot of ideology obscuring the basic facts.

A lot of USians just really, really want to believe that the free market can produce a more efficient (ie. lower cost and better outcomes) than "socialised" medicine. Possibly some kind of hangover from all the Cold War propaganda.

But that is cretinous.

They would rather "really believe" something than actually go look shit up and find out reality? So basically, whatever the excuse for them that they can use to remain lazy and unifromed is, they'll just use that rather than bother to find out for themselves.

They don't even know what "socialised" means anyway.

Teague wrote:They would rather "really believe" something than actually go look shit up and find out reality?

Are you somehow unfamiliar with this "ideology" stuff?

When the ship of ideology runs smack into the iceberg of reality, far too many people tend to get busy mopping the decks instead of heading for the lifeboats.

Nicko wrote:

Teague wrote:They would rather "really believe" something than actually go look shit up and find out reality?

Are you somehow unfamiliar with this "ideology" stuff?

When the ship of ideology runs smack into the iceberg of reality, far too many people tend to get busy mopping the decks instead of heading for the lifeboats.

No, I just seem to find it more incredible these days that people fall for this obvious shit.

Teague wrote:

Nicko wrote:

Teague wrote:So why isn't all of this obvious to everyone else?

How is it that we all have access to the same information. It doesn't take long to look stuff up either and yet the truth gets twisted.

It's not complicated stuff either - this is easy peasy japanese. You look up the AHCA and then u see how fucked up it is for example. Job done - now you know what the republicans are like and why you're not voting them anymore. Democrats are massive pussy's so once you vote them in, you just need a few angry constiuents to threaten them and they'll fall in line with things like UHC LOL

There's a lot of ideology obscuring the basic facts.

A lot of USians just really, really want to believe that the free market can produce a more efficient (ie. lower cost and better outcomes) than "socialised" medicine. Possibly some kind of hangover from all the Cold War propaganda.

But that is cretinous.

They would rather "really believe" something than actually go look shit up and find out reality? So basically, whatever the excuse for them that they can use to remain lazy and unifromed is, they'll just use that rather than bother to find out for themselves.

They don't even know what "socialised" means anyway.

Anyone who takes an intro psychology course is confronted smack dab dead center with the reality that our brains take numerous significant short cuts that are simply contradictory to what is "real." Politicians and the media are pretty good at using these shortcuts to manufacture consent. It doesn't have to be this way, but people make a lot of money, and hold a lot of power using these biases.

Most people trust what they see and feel. Thy don't look beyond what seems obvious to them. What seems obvious can be demonstrably false when one tests that obvious reality though.

Properly done science is putting a check on our biases and perceptual shortcuts. The example that sticks out most clearly in my mind was the research on scared straight programs. It seemed like a great idea until the outcomes were measured. The most at risk kids entered the correctional system earlier and more severely, as they identified with wanting the antisocial power. They looked up to it rather than experiencing repulsion. Unfortunately, this obviously "great" idea is still being run in many areas in spite of it having the opposite effect than it intended to have. (That's debatable with the school to prison pipeline, but it's sold to a gullible population.)

Teague, you need to read this book. Conservatives have their own special brand of biasis that actually get stronger with contradictory evidence, rather than weaker.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1282 ... ican-brain

Using facts and evidence strengthens their incorrect beliefs.

Willie71 wrote:Teague, you need to read this book. Conservatives have their own special brand of biasis that actually get stronger with contradictory evidence, rather than weaker.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1282 ... ican-brain

Using facts and evidence strengthens their incorrect beliefs.

I think the idea needs to be that we start to push critical thinking, accountability and truth more. Get it in society's mind that we need to stop listening to so much BS and start talking about the things we need to talk about like adults.

Right now, looking at the way we do things is childish. If the baby boomers want to act like brats then I think it's time Millienials started taking the more adult approach and supports truth and facts over this BS and wait til lthey're all dead then we can move on.

Actually, if you really want to "get" the people who voted in Trump, you would do well to read this book:

https://www.amazon.ca/White-Trash-400-Y ... 0670785970

laklak wrote:None of them get it, Dems or Repubs. Obamacare was a debacle, and the Republican "alternative" is no better and probably worse. Neither party will take even the most logical, sensible, first steps. Tort reform, selling insurance across state lines, negotiation of prescription prices - there are many things that could be done easily and quickly that would have an immediate effect. Do those things first, then start working on the rest of it.

Making health insurance portable between employers would be the big one.

That said, the Republican alternative is better because it at least removes the unenforced individual mandate and removes the employer mandate that in practice just requires employers to keep entry level jobs below 30 hours per week.

Nicko wrote:

Teague wrote:So why isn't all of this obvious to everyone else?

How is it that we all have access to the same information. It doesn't take long to look stuff up either and yet the truth gets twisted.

It's not complicated stuff either - this is easy peasy japanese. You look up the AHCA and then u see how fucked up it is for example. Job done - now you know what the republicans are like and why you're not voting them anymore. Democrats are massive pussy's so once you vote them in, you just need a few angry constiuents to threaten them and they'll fall in line with things like UHC LOL

There's a lot of ideology obscuring the basic facts.

A lot of USians just really, really want to believe that the free market can produce a more efficient (ie. lower cost and better outcomes) than "socialised" medicine. Possibly some kind of hangover from all the Cold War propaganda.

The truth, of course, is pretty much the opposite.

The US hasn't had a free market in health and medical care since the 1920s, so I'm not sure how the relatively recent data is relevant to that question. Third party payer, in the form of employer paid health insurance, has distorted the economics so that the entire medical industry is incented to increase costs and keep people sick, which of course is exactly what has happened.

https://medium.com/@RosenthalHealth/how ... 81c51d6436

Move back to an actual free market, and US costs would be cut by at least 50%, probably 90%.

Details on the GOP replacement are only coming out now, I agree with scrapping the individual and employer mandates from a Libertarian political perspective, but having worked in the insurance industry for years I can tell you it's not going to work any better. If there's one thing actuaries are really, really good at it's insuring a profit.

I don't know what the answer is. I was just fine prior to the ironically named ACA, but we can't go back to that. It's like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube. One they get them some free birth control you can't keep 'em on the farm.

Fuck it, I don't honestly care. I can always move back to the UK and suck up some "free" healthcare if I don't mind lying on a gurney in a hallway for three days waiting for a doctor. Or maybe a better idea is just drink myself to death, at least I'll go out happy and singing. Color me optimistic.

laklak wrote: I can always move back to the UK and suck up some "free" healthcare if I don't mind lying on a gurney in a hallway for three days waiting for a doctor.

I don't know about the UK but that simply doesn't happen here.

laklak wrote:Details on the GOP replacement are only coming out now, I agree with scrapping the individual and employer mandates from a Libertarian political perspective, but having worked in the insurance industry for years I can tell you it's not going to work any better. If there's one thing actuaries are really, really good at it's insuring a profit.

I don't know what the answer is. I was just fine prior to the ironically named ACA, but we can't go back to that. It's like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube. One they get them some free birth control you can't keep 'em on the farm.

Fuck it, I don't honestly care. I can always move back to the UK and suck up some "free" healthcare if I don't mind lying on a gurney in a hallway for three days waiting for a doctor. Or maybe a better idea is just drink myself to death, at least I'll go out happy and singing. Color me optimistic.

We've had these problems here, but it isn't an issue with universal healthcare. It's an issue with 40 years of conservative governments (in Alberta) doing everything they could within their power to cut the legs out from under universal health care. It's a classic right wing strategy, cut the budget to the skeleton, then say the program doesn't work.

Teague wrote:

Nicko wrote:

Teague wrote:They would rather "really believe" something than actually go look shit up and find out reality?

Are you somehow unfamiliar with this "ideology" stuff?

When the ship of ideology runs smack into the iceberg of reality, far too many people tend to get busy mopping the decks instead of heading for the lifeboats.

No, I just seem to find it more incredible these days that people fall for this obvious shit.

The only thing different about 'these days' and back in 'the good old days' is the environment - I don't feel persuaded the human animal is psychologically very different than tens of thousands of years ago. IMO society was made for us, we weren't made for the society.

Things that might seem obvious to some of those who have experience, there is always a new generation coming in.

Willie71 wrote:The psychology of these contradictions is simply how our brains process information. Confirmation bias, incredulity, limited ability to generalize or abstract, mental laziness, tribalism, and a fucking lying media all contribute to the mess. The system is so corrupt that people think it has to be a conspiracy theory and can't be real is also a contributing factor. The idealized America people are sold in school is so far away from the reality of a nearly third world level corruption that it seems impossible.

There's not conspiracy theory around every corner? "Big Pharma", "Wall Street", "Main Stream Media", "The Establishment", "The 1%", "Dominionists", Greedy Baby Boomers, "Neo Conservatives"," Neo Liberals", "Third Way Democrats", and corrupt and greedy oil companies, insurance companies, utilities, discount retailers, fast food franchises, and let's not forget that good old place holder - "The System".

The only things that the progressive paranoia around here lacks to go full on Alex Jones or Glenn Beck are The Bilderberg meetings, The illuminati, and FEMA camps. You've got Jill Stein talking about vaccines, cell phones causing brain damage, and fluoride being put by chemical companies into toothpaste to save on dumping charges so those are covered.

Yes, corporations give millions of dollars to their pet politicians out of the goodness of their hearts and don't expect anything in return.

The only thing reactionary complacency lacks around here is any sense of history or current events.