Israel is essentially a US military base

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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#161  Postby The Republic » May 30, 2010 2:00 pm

Mojzu wrote:No, a building being run by UN personnel would not be hiding weapons, schools and hospitals that are sympathetic to Hamas might be persuaded to, but I highly doubt it (because they know well enough that it won't stop them being shelled). But the idea that a UN building, run by UN personnel is hiding weapons? Absurd. Unless you're going to claim that the UN, the organisation that drew up proposals of the partition in the first place, is secretly in collusion with Hamas.

I believe UNRWA facilities and refugee camps occupy something like 1/3 of the inhabited areas within the gaza strip, so it would have been quite remarkable and surprising if some their compounds weren't shelled or if none of their hundreds of UN run schools were not bombed during the flare-up. And according to the BBC, Israel already allows 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid into Gaza a week, so the flotilla of 10,000 additional tons is nothing more than a publicity stunt to shame Israel and provide moral encouragement for Hamas and their supporters. To the best of my knowledge, those are the facts of matter; make what you will of them.


So because they cover a large area, it's okay if they're accidentally shelled? Some UN supported facilities within Gaza may have possibly been harbouring Hamas (because not all are run by UN personnel, and may be run by Palestinians sympathetic to Hamas), but the UN headquarters are run by UN personnel (and a UN chief had been visiting at the time) and would not be harbouring Hamas or weapons that were being used by Hamas. As for the blockade it was only April of this year when Israel allowed a shipment of clothes and shoes into Gaza that had been held at it's sea ports for 3 years, it still bans children's crayons and books from entering Gaza, the source you quote is not the BBC, but the BBC who asked the Israeli government to provide them with a figure (the same government that refused to let Journalists enter Gaza during their offensive, so I wouldn't trust any figures given by Israeli government press officials), and that figure is less then a quarter of what Gaza received before the blockades were put into place, and much less then they need.




I believe most of the humanitarian aid allowed into the Gaza strip by the Israeli government is supplied and received by UNRWA inside the Gaza strip, so those figures supplied by the BBC should be easy enough to confirm or discredit if you care to search through the UNRWA website.

And you'll have to provide a source please regarding the ban on crayons and markers and all that stuff. According the UNRWA site, an estimated half a million Palestinian children who attend their schools will have received an OLPC laptop by 2012. I would probably be really envious of those little brats if not for the fact that I already have one - which I paid over 300 dollars for during their ‘buy one, get one’ program back in 2007. They're really, really cool computers - and had I sold mine around the Christmas three years ago when it came in the mail, I could have sold it for $600 on ebay, because there was the buy-one/get-one was a very limited time offer that only lasted a few months (and I had to wait almost three months to receive it once I ordered it online.) I would totally be willing to go without a few crayons and markers if I could have one of those instead, but since I live here, I can have both (although I don't happen to have any crayons at the moment since I gave them away to the little kid next door to me.) And I wouldn't worry too much about that shipment of shoes that allegedly got held up at a seaport somewhere, I'm sure there have been tons and tons of pairs of shoes supplied to all the little feet in those refugee camps while the missing shoes sat around unused. If I had to choose to be a 'fugee in a UN camp somewhere, it would most likely have to be there - where I'd get free education, clothes, medicines, food (and quite possibly a brandnew laptop computer.)
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#162  Postby NineOneFour » May 30, 2010 2:07 pm

The Republic wrote:
Mojzu wrote:No, a building being run by UN personnel would not be hiding weapons, schools and hospitals that are sympathetic to Hamas might be persuaded to, but I highly doubt it (because they know well enough that it won't stop them being shelled). But the idea that a UN building, run by UN personnel is hiding weapons? Absurd. Unless you're going to claim that the UN, the organisation that drew up proposals of the partition in the first place, is secretly in collusion with Hamas.

I believe UNRWA facilities and refugee camps occupy something like 1/3 of the inhabited areas within the gaza strip, so it would have been quite remarkable and surprising if some their compounds weren't shelled or if none of their hundreds of UN run schools were not bombed during the flare-up. And according to the BBC, Israel already allows 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid into Gaza a week, so the flotilla of 10,000 additional tons is nothing more than a publicity stunt to shame Israel and provide moral encouragement for Hamas and their supporters. To the best of my knowledge, those are the facts of matter; make what you will of them.


So because they cover a large area, it's okay if they're accidentally shelled? Some UN supported facilities within Gaza may have possibly been harbouring Hamas (because not all are run by UN personnel, and may be run by Palestinians sympathetic to Hamas), but the UN headquarters are run by UN personnel (and a UN chief had been visiting at the time) and would not be harbouring Hamas or weapons that were being used by Hamas. As for the blockade it was only April of this year when Israel allowed a shipment of clothes and shoes into Gaza that had been held at it's sea ports for 3 years, it still bans children's crayons and books from entering Gaza, the source you quote is not the BBC, but the BBC who asked the Israeli government to provide them with a figure (the same government that refused to let Journalists enter Gaza during their offensive, so I wouldn't trust any figures given by Israeli government press officials), and that figure is less then a quarter of what Gaza received before the blockades were put into place, and much less then they need.




I believe most of the humanitarian aid allowed into the Gaza strip by the Israeli government is supplied and received by UNRWA inside the Gaza strip, so those figures supplied by the BBC should be easy enough to confirm or discredit if you care to search through the UNRWA website.

And you'll have to provide a source please regarding the ban on crayons and markers and all that stuff. According the UNRWA site, an estimated half a million Palestinian children who attend their schools will have received an OLPC laptop by 2012. I would probably be really envious of those little brats if not for the fact that I already have one - which I paid over 300 dollars for during their ‘buy one, get one’ program back in 2007. They're really, really cool computers - and had I sold mine around the Christmas three years ago when it came in the mail, I could have sold it for $600 on ebay, because there was the buy-one/get-one was a very limited time offer that only lasted a few months (and I had to wait almost three months to receive it once I ordered it online.) I would totally be willing to go without a few crayons and markers if I could have one of those instead, but since I live here, I can have both (although I don't happen to have any crayons at the moment since I gave them away to the little kid next door to me.) And I wouldn't worry too much about that shipment of shoes that allegedly got held up at a seaport somewhere, I'm sure there have been tons and tons of pairs of shoes supplied to all the little feet in those refugee camps while the missing shoes sat around unused. If I had to choose to be a 'fugee in a UN camp somewhere, it would most likely have to be there - where I'd get free education, clothes, medicines, food (and quite possibly a brandnew laptop computer.)


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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#163  Postby blackarmada » May 30, 2010 2:22 pm

NineOneFour wrote:
Hi, Red House.


Certainly explains alot.
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#164  Postby Mojzu » May 30, 2010 2:26 pm

The Republic wrote:I believe most of the humanitarian aid allowed into the Gaza strip by the Israeli government is supplied and received by UNRWA inside the Gaza strip, so those figures supplied by the BBC should be easy enough to confirm or discredit if you care to search through the UNRWA website.


The UN claims that aid flowing into Gaza has been reduced by 3/4 since the blockade. Same article you seem to have used to get your figures too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 193249.stm

And you'll have to provide a source please regarding the ban on crayons and markers and all that stuff. According the UNRWA site, an estimated half a million Palestinian children who attend their schools will have received an OLPC laptop by 2012. I would probably be really envious of those little brats if not for the fact that I already have one - which I paid over 300 dollars for during their ‘buy one, get one’ program back in 2007. They're really, really cool computers - and had I sold mine around the Christmas three years ago when it came in the mail, I could have sold it for $600 on ebay, because there was the buy-one/get-one was a very limited time offer that only lasted a few months (and I had to wait almost three months to receive it once I ordered it online.) I would totally be willing to go without a few crayons and markers if I could have one of those instead, but since I live here, I can have both (although I don't happen to have any crayons at the moment since I gave them away to the little kid next door to me.) And I wouldn't worry too much about that shipment of shoes that allegedly got held up at a seaport somewhere, I'm sure there have been tons and tons of pairs of shoes supplied to all the little feet in those refugee camps while the missing shoes sat around unused. If I had to choose to be a 'fugee in a UN camp somewhere, it would most likely have to be there - where I'd get free education, clothes, medicines, food (and quite possibly a brandnew laptop computer.)


Source for Israel banning light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, tea, coffee, chocolate and nuts:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 101002.stm
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#165  Postby andyx1205 » May 30, 2010 6:26 pm

angelo wrote:
Radical islam has been responsible for approx. 270 million deaths since their foundation in the seventh century.
Recently, the main reason they hate the West is because of the West's support for the state of Israel. Make no mistake, radical islam is out to conquer the world for allah and his pedophile prophet. Since Sept. 11, 2001, there have been more than ten thousand islamic terrorist attacks worldwide carried out by men and women who believe that dying for their beliefs is more important than life itself.
Chomsky never mentions this fact even today. This suits these madmen just fine to have a tolerant West who are afraid to speak their minds for fear of been labeled a racist.


That's nothing but a bunch of nonsense hysteria. And to make your case better, you want us to care about statistics that go all the way back to the 7th century? European civilizations have killed far more than that since the 7th century.

Deaths caused by Radical Islamic terrorism in the last 100 years constitute a very small percentage of deaths. This myth that Muslims are out to conquer the whole world is simply silly. Bin Laden can talk all he wants about bringing back the Islamic Empire, but he simply does not have the means to do so.

Are the deaths caused by radical Muslims in the past 100 years really comparable to the total amount of deaths caused by World War 1, World War 2, and subsequent wars waged by the West? Of course not. The amount of people that died on September 11, 2001, is not significant. Sorry, it's not significant and I find it irrational to make a big deal out of it. I'm sick of these petty arguments that "appeal to emotion." The "event" is significant historically, but the amount of people that died aren't, they remain a statistic.

I'm sick and tired of the radical ethno-centric view that many people from the West carry. It's only natural for the pillars of the oppressors to be struck from time to time. This controversial statement in no way implies that I approve of these radical methods that target innocent civilians, and if you want to twist it around to make it look like I do support terrorism, then go ahead, I could care less. I will always condemn both the actions of the West, and the actions of Radical Muslims. I'm not obliged to take sides.

As King said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere," as opposed to the ethno-centric Western view of "Injustice in the West is a threat to justice everywhere."
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#166  Postby Gawd » May 30, 2010 6:41 pm

angelo wrote:
Radical islam has been responsible for approx. 270 million deaths since their foundation in the seventh century.
Recently, the main reason they hate the West is because of the West's support for the state of Israel. Make no mistake, radical islam is out to conquer the world for allah and his pedophile prophet. Since Sept. 11, 2001, there have been more than ten thousand islamic terrorist attacks worldwide carried out by men and women who believe that dying for their beliefs is more important than life itself.
Chomsky never mentions this fact even today. This suits these madmen just fine to have a tolerant West who are afraid to speak their minds for fear of been labeled a racist.


Turning a blind eye to white terrorism now, are we?
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#167  Postby The Republic » May 30, 2010 7:46 pm

Gawd wrote:
angelo wrote:
Radical islam has been responsible for approx. 270 million deaths since their foundation in the seventh century.
Recently, the main reason they hate the West is because of the West's support for the state of Israel. Make no mistake, radical islam is out to conquer the world for allah and his pedophile prophet. Since Sept. 11, 2001, there have been more than ten thousand islamic terrorist attacks worldwide carried out by men and women who believe that dying for their beliefs is more important than life itself.
Chomsky never mentions this fact even today. This suits these madmen just fine to have a tolerant West who are afraid to speak their minds for fear of been labeled a racist.


Turning a blind eye to white terrorism now, are we?



Islam is a colorblind religion, open to everyone (even white people.)
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#168  Postby Gawd » May 30, 2010 8:00 pm

The Republic wrote:
Gawd wrote:
angelo wrote:
Radical islam has been responsible for approx. 270 million deaths since their foundation in the seventh century.
Recently, the main reason they hate the West is because of the West's support for the state of Israel. Make no mistake, radical islam is out to conquer the world for allah and his pedophile prophet. Since Sept. 11, 2001, there have been more than ten thousand islamic terrorist attacks worldwide carried out by men and women who believe that dying for their beliefs is more important than life itself.
Chomsky never mentions this fact even today. This suits these madmen just fine to have a tolerant West who are afraid to speak their minds for fear of been labeled a racist.


Turning a blind eye to white terrorism now, are we?



Islam is a colorblind religion, open to everyone (even white people.)


Well, if we are going back to the seventh century, then my words are justified. A white terrorist is typically just labelled as "lost", "unstable", and was "forced" by white apologists because they are white.

For something more on topic to this thread, just look at the new Israeli "loyalty law":

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... y-1.292958
.....The word "Arab" is not mentioned in the legislation, but the bill is directed against the Arabs. Will anyone consider stripping Anat Kamm of her citizenship if she is convicted of espionage? Did anyone consider stripping Elhanan Tennenbaum of his citizenship for having contact with Hezbollah? What about businessman Nahum Manbar? Or Mordechai Vanunu, journalists, former Mossad members and former senior officers who published reports that could have, and still can, serve the enemy?

And how would this bill define a terrorist action? Would it be a bomb in a bus or shooting at Jewish citizens? Or maybe shooting at Palestinians picking olives? What about placing bombs near the homes of leftist activists? Or the forceful takeover of homes and property?....
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#169  Postby Virus » May 30, 2010 10:37 pm

The amount of people that died on September 11, 2001, is not significant. Sorry, it's not significant and I find it irrational to make a big deal out of it.


Terrorism is a big deal.
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#170  Postby Mojzu » May 30, 2010 10:51 pm

Virus wrote:
The amount of people that died on September 11, 2001, is not significant. Sorry, it's not significant and I find it irrational to make a big deal out of it.


Terrorism is a big deal.


I don't see anywhere in that post where Andyx1205 even vaguely suggested it wasn't. And that quote is taken rather out of context by excluding the preceding sentences by Andyx1205.
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#171  Postby andyx1205 » May 31, 2010 12:45 am

Virus wrote:
The amount of people that died on September 11, 2001, is not significant. Sorry, it's not significant and I find it irrational to make a big deal out of it.


Terrorism is a big deal.


I'm assuming you're speaking of Radical Islamic terrorism, in which case I agree. Yes, it's a big deal, but it's not the only problem on the plate.

American imperialism is a problem, and so is one of the "reactions" to this problem, in this case Islamic terrorism. Israel's actions are a problem, and so is the "reaction" to that problem, such as Hamas and Hezbollah.

Regarding your accusations of Chomsky being a terrorist sympathizer. Lets "assume" that he does endorse Hamas and Hezbollah's views, so what? In no way does that make his criticism of America any less credible.

Martin Heidegger supported Adolf Hitler and was a member of the Nazi Party. He was sympathetic to National Socialism. Yet, that does not discredit his philosophy, and whether one agrees with his philosophy or not, it does not take away the fact that he is one of the most influential philosophers, if not the most influential, of the 20th century.
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#172  Postby King Hazza » May 31, 2010 12:56 am

shh wrote:
King Hazza wrote:but terrorism IS, simply the use, or threat to use violence or wrongdoing against someone to coerce them into doing what you want. Apply that whichever way you want, it'll be the same- and I think the world is waking up to that notion and will start to adjust.

I don't get what you're saying here, I agree that the term "terrorist" is essentially a propaganda tool, but I don't see how the other definition you give is any different.
Don't all armies use violence or the threat of violence? As for "wrongdoing" I don't see how that can be any better defined than "terrorism" is to begin with.

CORRECT- and that's how the audiences of today (especially in the Middle East) percieve it. Thus the old approach of appearing in some country to do a bit of 'shock and awe' doesn't really work anymore.
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#173  Postby blackarmada » May 31, 2010 2:09 am

Mojzu wrote:
Virus wrote:
The amount of people that died on September 11, 2001, is not significant. Sorry, it's not significant and I find it irrational to make a big deal out of it.


Terrorism is a big deal.


I don't see anywhere in that post where Andyx1205 even vaguely suggested it wasn't. And that quote is taken rather out of context by excluding the preceding sentences by Andyx1205.


Not the first time he quote mines to misrepresent someone.

Terrorism in the developed nations is not a big deal. It IS a problem but is hardly a big deal.

DRUNK DRIVING is a big deal. The terrorists could conduct another three 9/11s and still wouldn't inflict enough fatalities as drunk driving and that's just in the US.

It is however, a big deal in the countries that the US has destablized in their "War on Terror". Pakistan is the foremost example.

Andyx1205 is right in this regard.
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#174  Postby Mayak » May 31, 2010 6:33 am

andyx1205 wrote:
Virus wrote:
The amount of people that died on September 11, 2001, is not significant. Sorry, it's not significant and I find it irrational to make a big deal out of it.


Terrorism is a big deal.


I'm assuming you're speaking of Radical Islamic terrorism, in which case I agree. Yes, it's a big deal, but it's not the only problem on the plate.

American imperialism is a problem, and so is one of the "reactions" to this problem, in this case Islamic terrorism. Israel's actions are a problem, and so is the "reaction" to that problem, such as Hamas and Hezbollah.

Regarding your accusations of Chomsky being a terrorist sympathizer. Lets "assume" that he does endorse Hamas and Hezbollah's views, so what? In no way does that make his criticism of America any less credible.

Martin Heidegger supported Adolf Hitler and was a member of the Nazi Party. He was sympathetic to National Socialism. Yet, that does not discredit his philosophy, and whether one agrees with his philosophy or not, it does not take away the fact that he is one of the most influential philosophers, if not the most influential, of the 20th century.


What do you mean by "reactions"? Are you saying that American imperialism (or imperialism in general) is the direct cause of Islamic terrorism/extremism/fundamentalism? And if there is no American imperialism than Islamic terrorism/extremism/fundamentalism would also go away or at least be much more negligible.

As for Chomsky, we do not have to assume anything about his support for Hezbollah. Here is a newspaper article were Chomsky endorses them, http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/05/noam_chomsky_de.php .
But I see your point on the credibility of his criticisms of America. I would say his criticisms do not become any less meaningful in themselves, but Chomsky himself becomes less credible.
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#175  Postby cherries » May 31, 2010 7:29 am

Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet Monday, May 31, 2010



Israeli forces have attacked a flotilla of aid-carrying ships aiming to break the country's siege on Gaza.

More than 10 people were killed and dozens injured when troops stormed the Freedom Flotilla early on Monday, the Israeli military said.

The Israeli Army Radio said earlier that up to 16 people had been killed.

Footage from the flotilla's lead vessel, the Mavi Marmara, showed armed Israeli soldiers boarding the ship and helicopters flying overhead.

Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, on board the Mavi Marmara, said Israeli troops had used live ammunition during the operation.

The Israeli military said four soldiers had been wounded, one of them seriously, and claimed troops opened fire after "demonstrators onboard attacked the IDF Naval personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs".

Free Gaza Movement, the organisers of the flotilla, however, said the troops opened fire as soon as they stormed the ships.

They also said the ships were now being towed to the Israeli town of Haifa, instead of Ashdod to avoid waiting journalists.

Israeli intervention

Earlier, the Israeli navy had contacted the captain of the Mavi Marmara, asking him to identify himself and say where the ship was headed.
Shortly after, two Israeli naval vessels had flanked the flotilla on either side, but at a distance.

Organisers of the flotilla carrying 10,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid then diverted their ships and slowed down to avoid a confrontation during the night.

They also issued all passengers life jackets and asked them to remain below deck.

Al Jazeera’s Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Jerusalem, said the Israeli action was surprising.

"All the images being shown from the activists on board those ships show clearly that they were civilians and peaceful in nature, with medical supplies on board. So it will surprise many in the international community to learn what could have possibly led to this type of confrontation," he said.

Meanwhile, Israeli police have been put on a heightened state of alert across the country to prevent any civil disturbances.

Protests

Condemnation has been quick to pour in after the Israeli action.

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, officially declared a three-day state of mourning over Monday's deaths.

Thousands of Turkish protesters tried to storm the Israeli consulate in Istanbul soon after the news of the operation broke. The protesters shouted "Damn Israel" as police blocked them.

Turkey is also reported to have summoned the Israeli ambassador to lodge a protest.

"(The interception on the convoy) is unacceptable ... Israel will have to endure the consequences of this behaviour," the Turkish foreign ministry said in a statement.

Ismail Haniya, the Hamas leader in Gaza, has also dubbed the Israeli action as "barbaric".

Hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists, including a Nobel laureate and several European legislators, were with the flotilla, aiming to reach Gaza in defiance of an Israeli embargo.

But Israel had said it would not allow the flotilla to reach the Gaza Strip and vowed to stop the six ships from reaching the coastal Palestinian territory.

The flotilla had set sail from a port in Cyprus on Sunday and aimed to reach Gaza by Monday morning.

Israel said the boats were embarking on "an act of provocation" against the Israeli military, rather than providing aid, and that it had issued warrants to prohibit their entrance to Gaza.

It asserted that the flotilla would be breaking international law by landing in Gaza, a claim the organisers rejected.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053133047995359.html
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#176  Postby Gawd » May 31, 2010 7:39 am

cherries wrote:
Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet Monday, May 31, 2010

Israeli forces have attacked a flotilla of aid-carrying ships aiming to break the country's siege on Gaza.

More than 10 people were killed and dozens injured when troops stormed the Freedom Flotilla early on Monday, the Israeli military said.
......


The discussion is over here: news-politics/siege-breaking-aid-flotilla-for-gaza-t7463.html
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#177  Postby cherries » May 31, 2010 7:41 am

thanks :smile:
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#178  Postby angelo » May 31, 2010 9:58 am

Let me put it this way. I would not believe a single word coming out of Hamas or any other terrorist organization and their apologists like Chomsky.
If a UN building was attacked, it would not have been without reason, unless it was hit by a stray shell. Do you actually believe Israel would want the wrath of the USA and the rest of the world by deliberately shelling a UN post?
Israel did try appeasement to no avail, in fact the terrorists saw it as weakness and carried on their rent-less attacks on Israeli civilians.
As long as there is islam, there can never be peace in the Middle East, and the sooner Obama realizes that, the better.
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Re: Israel is essentially a US military base

#179  Postby Gawd » May 31, 2010 10:02 am

angelo wrote:Let me put it this way. I would not believe a single word coming out of Hamas or any other terrorist organization and their apologists like Chomsky.
If a UN building was attacked, it would not have been without reason, unless it was hit by a stray shell. Do you actually believe Israel would want the wrath of the USA and the rest of the world by deliberately shelling a UN post?
Israel did try appeasement to no avail, in fact the terrorists saw it as weakness and carried on their rent-less attacks on Israeli civilians.
As long as there is islam, there can never be peace in the Middle East, and the sooner Obama realizes that, the better.


Angelo, do you really want to be putting your foot in your mouth again at this time when Israel has just killed 15-20 civilians in international waters and pirated their ships? You should be ashamed for supporting a nation that unabashedly murders non-Jews on a whim.
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The US is essentially an IsraHeili military base

#180  Postby Galaxian » May 31, 2010 10:07 am

angelo wrote:
Galaxian wrote:
angelo wrote:Since Sept. 11, 2001, there have been more than ten thousand islamic terrorist attacks worldwide carried out by men and women who believe that dying for their beliefs is more important than life itself.
And how many terrorist attacks have been made by IsraHell, USA, UK, etc, both before & after 9/11 ??? :dunno:
None that I'm aware of. Self defense is not a terrorist attack. Also, in the case of Israel, sometimes a pre-emptive attack is a form of self defense. A terrorist who blows himself up and anyone unfortunate enough to be nearby is not self defense no matter how it's worded.

OK, you've made your position clear: Neo-colonialist Apologist.
The 700+ US bases, the launch of dozens of wars, the murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians: All OK! :snooty:
Last edited by Galaxian on May 31, 2010 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
The true seeker looks for the truth wherever it may be and readily accepts it, without shame, without hope for reward and without fear of punishment_Sam Nejad

To know who rules over you find out who you are not allowed to criticize. -Voltaire
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