She thinks hitler and stalin were bleeding heart liberals

First of all, even if we ignore for a moment the massive historical precedent set for the use of the words "final solution" as a synonym for mass extermination, there's a tiny problem with the entire logic that suggests we'll somehow magically bring an end to terrorism, by resorting to fascist style demonisation of entire sections of the population, and continuing to pursue foreign policies that are best described as "let's bomb the Smelly Brown Foreign People™ back to the Stone Age".

First of all, trying to bomb the British people into submission didn't work for the Luftwaffe in World War II. It merely made the British people more determined to kick Nazi arse. Yet idiot right wing politicians with kapok for brains and a total disconnect from elementary humanity, seem to think that what failed to work with us, will somehow magically work with the Sand Niggers™. Except that no,. it won't. Even that buffoon Boris Johnson has worked this out, courtesy of some interesting words he spoke, with which Krishnan Guru-Murthy humiliated the tosspot Michael Fallon in a recent interview, where said Tory tosspot thought he was hearing the words of Jeremy Corbyn, and tried the tiresome "terrorist sympathiser" bullshit yet again.

Quite simply, now that the terrorist genie is out of the bottle, every time governments enact policies to "deal with it", those choosing the terrorist route will evolve accordingly. The only real solution to the terrorist problem, is to provide as stark and negative a contrast as possible, between the terrorist modus operandi and that of decent civil society, so that the terrorist route will look increasingly empty, increasingly shallow, increasingly futile and increasingly failed. Quite simply, and this is something that wankers in right-wing politics are simply too dumb-fuck stupid to understand, you succeed not by using the terrorists' own methods, which is what in effect increasing authoritarianism amounts to, because the terrorists will always be better than the politicians at that game - terrorists will happily dive in where the politicians fail to tread in this regard. You succeed by demonstrating that you're capable of rendering them impotent and inadequate without sacrificing civil liberties. Theresa May doesn't understand this elementary principle, because she's too busy getting a hard-on at the thought of turning those same authoritarian measures against the hated plebs, which of course are the real target she's interested in - all those people who don't sing from the Tory religious hymn sheet and, who, as a corollary, she regards as the real enemy to be crushed and exterminated. Indeed, in the hands of right-wing politicians, the entire "war on terror" wankery is nothing but a smokescreen to disguise who they're really at war with, namely you and I, and pointing to Scary Towel Heads™ is in large measure a convenient distraction they're erecting to try and hide their real intentions. Launching a "war" against a foreign enemy, real or imagined, in order to pave the way for the real war against ideological enemies at home, has been a standard part of the playbook of right-wing dictatorships for over a century, and was considered useful even as far back as the days of Machiavelli, but the utility value thereof has always been a seductive illusion for indolent and incompetent rulers. On the other hand, the success of good, solid, reliable, competent civil policing, combined with proper insights into the underlying psychology, will together do more to combat genuine terrorist threats, than any amount of demonising rhetoric and militaristic posturing. Ultimately, you don't fight terrorists with bombs, you fight them with superior ideas.

That's the real damning indictment of the current pathological environment created by right-wing authoritarians - the failure to come up with even elementary ideas with which to combat the terrorist mirage, let alone any effort aimed at giving the potential recruits a stake in the societies they live in, instead of nudging them even closer to the terrorists' embrace through inequality and exclusion. People who have a material stake in civil society aren't going to find the destruction thereof attractive, it's that simple.

As for Katie Hopkins, well, she is, quite simply, a fascist shit. She routinely entertains ideas that would have made Julius Streicher raise his eyebrows, and uses language straight out of the playbook of Der Giftpilz. She's basically a third rate version of Streicher in drag. The only thing she hasn't yet done, that brings this into sharp relief, is strut up and down the streets of London wearing Swastika armbands, and I suspect she'd do this if she thought it would boost her Twitter ratings.

It was possible to contend that in the past, that she was simply engaging in shit stirring in order to stroke her inner attention whore, but the relentless manner in which she hovers over fascist memes and peddles them in public, makes it increasingly difficult to sustain said contention. Her entire mindset is fascist, militarist and driven by hate. She's openly confessed to getting a thrill from, quote, "uniforms and big shouty men", and is, at bottom, a venomous stormtrooper wannabee with lipstick.

Hopkins, paradoxically, though she's probably incapable of understanding this point, is a better recruitment sergeant for ISIS than any of the people ISIS themselves are deploying for the task. But she's only acting thus, despite her own self-declared intentions, because right-wing politicians are as stupid as she is, with regard to the basics of civil society. That same civil society, of course, is now under far greater threat from being dismantled by the same idiot right-wing politicians, as they pursue their sick little wet dream of resurrecting a Dark Age plutocracy, than it ever was from people with bombs.

willhud9 wrote:Not ignorance. Just simple understanding of context, plus word usage. The Final Solution is a proper noun. It gets capitalized. This Hopkins chick did not capitalize her usage. I also don't know who she is or what she has said, so I don't have any context of her past posts to go on. Her tweet mentioned 22 dead in Manchester and that we need a final solution to deal with terrorists. In all honesty that is a very, non-extremist thing, and I wouldn't think anyone was a moron for saying that.

Now that I know what kind of journalist she is, I can see her context being crude and inappropriate, but as for the claim in the OP for never putting the two words together that is very arbitrary and unnecessary. The Final Solution to the Jewish Question is a specific thing. A final solution is not. English 101 folks. Don't let words be scary.

It's not about words being scary. It's about people who know very well what words mean using two specific words together in a certain context. Apparently it is also about how you can get the naive to argue against your innate dickishness by simply omitting capital letters. The two words together denote something specific, whether capitalised or not. Frankly, you'd have to live under a rock not to know that much. However when you add in this dick's track record for vile, bigoted pronouncements about those less fortunate than herself, there remains very little doubt indeed that this dick deliberatety chose those words.

If we are going down the route of giving English 101 lessons, all I can do is puff my chest out and say I was speaking English for 20 years before you were born, and was in fact in the process of obtaining a BA in it by the time you arrived. But let's not go down that route, will, because everyone here is an adult who has a better than average understanding of the English language, and a lecture on usage by you, who somehow gets 'then' and 'than' confused, is totally unnecessary for people who can in fact use four letter words correctly, and in this instance also largely grasp the all-important context.

Using "final solution" with reference to people implies killing those people. Whether that's the intention or not isn't really relevant. I've used it with reference to exam questions and felt dumb once the words escaped my mouth because you can't really divorce the phrase "final solution" from die Endlösung der Judenfrage.

I don't know whether it was just a brain fart or if she thought she was being clever. I do have trouble believing it didn't register with her what it sounded as though she was saying when she type the words though. It's not like she's a kid.

She is an out and proud bigot who makes money out of being so. She knew very well what she was saying. It was another calculated attempt to make herself attention worthy. In this case it backfired, but I doubt it will cause her one single moment's reflection as she snaps up all the invitations to other platforms from other bigots to do exactly the same again.

Fallible wrote:The two words together denote something specific, whether capitalised or not. Frankly, you'd have to live under a rock not to know that much.

Hi from under my rock. Somehow I'd managed to live 54 years without ever coming across the phrase. I have now educated myself a little.

If I'd seen KH's tweet without coming across all the furore first, I wouldn't have thought anything of it, other than, somehow, wanting to find a final solution to the terrorist problem.

I do find it objectionable that the phrase is taboo.

I'd quite like to find a final solution to all kinds of persistent and irritating problems. That doesn't mean I want to kill anyone.

That said, and not being in favour of genocide in the real world, the fantasy of being able to snap my fingers and have all extremists just disappear holds a certain attraction.

willhud9 wrote:Is final solution a banned phrase? Does it only mean genocidal actions now?

That's one of the reasons I avoid the field of martyrmatics— I mean, mathematics.

TopCat wrote:

Fallible wrote:The two words together denote something specific, whether capitalised or not. Frankly, you'd have to live under a rock not to know that much.

Hi from under my rock. Somehow I'd managed to live 54 years without ever coming across the phrase. I have now educated myself a little.

If I'd seen KH's tweet without coming across all the furore first, I wouldn't have thought anything of it, other than, somehow, wanting to find a final solution to the terrorist problem.

I do find it objectionable that the phrase is taboo.

I'd quite like to find a final solution to all kinds of persistent and irritating problems. That doesn't mean I want to kill anyone.

That said, and not being in favour of genocide in the real world, the fantasy of being able to snap my fingers and have all extremists just disappear holds a certain attraction.

Well, sorry about that. I did think that the phrase and its history was common knowledge. I still do, to be honest, although I am always open to being educated. I am somewhat surprised that you didn't know about it. I remain convinced that she did.

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Using "final solution" with reference to people implies killing those people. Whether that's the intention or not isn't really relevant. I've used it with reference to exam questions and felt dumb once the words escaped my mouth because you can't really divorce the phrase "final solution" from die Endlösung der Judenfrage.

I don't know whether it was just a brain fart or if she thought she was being clever. I do have trouble believing it didn't register with her what it sounded as though she was saying when she type the words though. It's not like she's a kid.

It's the context that is offensive ie its Katie Hopkins, if someone had said we need a final solution for sorting out say sales tax or railway regulation a few people would still find it offensive due to its historical context. But the person would either ride it out or just say sorry for my poor use of words. Katie Hopkins is an out and out fascist who has called for refugees to be massacred and when referring to an entire people there is nothing accidental

I see a lot of people making bold assertions that using the term final and solution together implies massive killing without any actual substantiation that that is what it has to mean.

It is not naive to actually read a statement innocently nor is moronic to use it. The original tweet, without knowing the kind of person the tweeter, did not suggest any sort of violence to be enacted.

If people could disengage themselves from their emotional tripe and actually step back and present a logical, rational reason to their arguments that'd be great. But implying because the two words were used together to denote a mass genocide of the Jewish population in Europe does not a strong argument make. That is an arbitrary assertion.

And for the record I'm not even defending Hopkins use of it. I'm simply saying this idea that the usage of final solution is this taboo phrase is emotional nonsense. So saying "how moronic does someone have to be to use the phrase" is really nothing more than a terrible opinion. If people can't actually read and associate words with meanings then language is the worst form of communications I guess.

willhud9 wrote:Not ignorance. Just simple understanding of context, plus word usage. The Final Solution is a proper noun. It gets capitalized. This Hopkins chick did not capitalize her usage. I also don't know who she is or what she has said, so I don't have any context of her past posts to go on. Her tweet mentioned 22 dead in Manchester and that we need a final solution to deal with terrorists. In all honesty that is a very, non-extremist thing, and I wouldn't think anyone was a moron for saying that.

Now that I know what kind of journalist she is, I can see her context being crude and inappropriate, but as for the claim in the OP for never putting the two words together that is very arbitrary and unnecessary. The Final Solution to the Jewish Question is a specific thing. A final solution is not. English 101 folks. Don't let words be scary.

Another response could be "Damn, I got that wrong. I learned something I missed in school, and won't make that mistake again."

After going over some of her stuff, at this point I'd be surprised if the phrase wasn't chosen very carefully and deliberately. She comes across as a professional troll, her every utterance calculated to cause maximum uproar and, if possible, to generate newspaper headlines and invitations to defend her outbursts on TV.

= ££££££

willhud9 wrote:And for the record I'm not even defending Hopkins use of it. I'm simply saying this idea that the usage of final solution is this taboo phrase is emotional nonsense. So saying "how moronic does someone have to be to use the phrase" is really nothing more than a terrible opinion. If people can't actually read and associate words with meanings then language is the worst form of communications I guess.

Context is everything, especially when referring to people or groups. Words can't be considered separate from the context in which they are used since that will in many instances heavily modify their meaning. (Especially in English, although I'm mot sure if this is true in other languages as well).

I'm wondering if she has a job in the USA lined up now she has been fired by those stinking liberals for exercising her "right of free speech" (which doesn't exist over here).

willhud9 wrote:Not ignorance. Just simple understanding of context, plus word usage. The Final Solution is a proper noun. It gets capitalized. This Hopkins chick did not capitalize her usage. I also don't know who she is or what she has said, so I don't have any context of her past posts to go on. Her tweet mentioned 22 dead in Manchester and that we need a final solution to deal with terrorists. In all honesty that is a very, non-extremist thing, and I wouldn't think anyone was a moron for saying that.

Now that I know what kind of journalist she is, I can see her context being crude and inappropriate, but as for the claim in the OP for never putting the two words together that is very arbitrary and unnecessary. The Final Solution to the Jewish Question is a specific thing. A final solution is not. English 101 folks. Don't let words be scary.

New meaning to grammar Nazi.

I get a kick out of the capitalization argument. She does talk radio. Radio. Can't see the capitalization, or lack of it, over the radio.

She's been doing this for a living. She knew perfectly well what she said, and the effect it would have. She doesn't choose words accidentally.


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She knew what she was saying and how it would be interpreted Wilhud. Her excuse is like saying "heil Hitler" and then saying you were talking about another guy who also happens to be called Hitler.

Is reading difficult for y'all today? I have said several times I'm not defending her use of the phrase.

What is disturbing to me is that she, as noted a professional troll, has such audience that she can make living out of trolling. I looked her up, saw the vid with children names and never need to hear about her again.

Oh but I am just tuco so hmm no its actually not disturbing. She needs to be challenged or something. Carry on.

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edit: I would guess that saying "final solution" in Germany has different impact than saying it in Mexico for example. Some societies are lets say very sensitive to final solution.

The_Metatron wrote:I get a kick out of the capitalization argument. She does talk radio. Radio. Can't see the capitalization, or lack of it, over the radio.

She's been doing this for a living. She knew perfectly well what she said, and the effect it would have. She doesn't choose words accidentally.


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She tweeted, so okay. Thanks for trying though.