Language Police

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Re: Language Police

#121  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 7:59 am

purplerat wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
purplerat wrote:
GrahamH wrote:

Nobody is advocating any such thing.

Nobody may be advocating such a thing but it's hardly a stretch to imagine that young college students paid to be wokeavists will lead to such. Virtue signaling is rampant enough even before you add a cash incentive.


To it's just a slippery slope fallacy isn't it? If something is done to tackle racism some people who aren't really racist might be mildly inconvenienced because of their ambiguous language?

How is it a slippery slope? Creating a paid position or not is binary. There's nowhere to slip one way or another.


The slope is from doing a little good with good intentions to becoming "small-minded busybody[s] who then makes their life a misery in order to virtue signal their own alleged superiority. The intent of the scheme subverted by human failings.

Unless you see the very idea of even attempting to talk about bias in an attempt to tackle racism as an outright evil from the start. That would be binary.
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Re: Language Police

#122  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 8:05 am

don't get me started wrote:


On a related note, I teach a pre-study abroad course where I have to prepare students to go to an English speaking country for a year of English study. For many of them it is the first time to travel out of Japan. I try to give them a heads up on some of the things that might cause offense overseas. (Including assuming that non-white people cannot be 'really' British or Canadian or whatever.) This comes as a shock to some of them as they assume that 'Japanese are polite' and that it is not possible for a Japanese person to be inadvertently rude to a 'foreigner'.

One of the things I try to convey to them is that their identity as a Japanese person is not omni-relevant. Not every interaction will be based around the Nihonjin/Gaijin binary worldview. This will probably be a starting point for many interactions, particularly in the early days, but it recedes (or should recede) with increased intimacy with people and the host culture. You might start off as 'Ayumi from Japan' but you will end up as 'My friend Ayu.' or 'Ayumi from the tennis club' or the like.


That's very interesting. So in general terms you are doing something like the Sheffield scheme at a more professional level with more focus and experience. I assume you don't feel that you are crushing your students' free speech or:
Fenrir wrote:interpreted as such [racist] by a small-minded busybody who then makes their life a misery in order to virtue signal their own alleged superiority


Can you suggest anything from your own role that might benefit the Students at Sheffield to make a successful contribution rather than oppress the student body?

Does purplerat capture the essential difference between your position and the Sheffield students here?
purplerat wrote:why not hire people who are actually qualified as opposed to people (i.e. students) who almost by definition are not fully qualified.
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Re: Language Police

#123  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 8:14 am

zoon wrote:
Hermit wrote:
don't get me started wrote:There are many cultural differences that come into play when people from different cultures interact. (Even English-speaking cultures can have very marked differences.) What is fine and unproblematic in once culture, can be a serious threat to face in another. No-one gets automatic dibs on what is and is not offensive.

As a result of what you and Spearthrower have written, whatever ambivalence I had initially concerning the Race Equality Champions project has melted away. It takes it upon itself to determine behaviour, no matter how micro in scale and possibly unintended, is objectively offensive and racist.

At best this is bound to result in an expensive train wreck situation. Providing safe rooms with colouring-in books for those who feel (justifiably or not) offended/triggered/traumatised is a much more worthwhile undertaking.

It would depend on whether the "healthy, open discussion" promised by Sheffield University includes discussing the points raised by Spearthrower and don't get me started, rather than shutting them down or dismissing them. Given their agenda, I agree that shutting down seems more likely.


What makes you think that? The phrase "healthy conversation" indicates that the intent is not to "shut down or dismiss".

From the article linked in the OP:

Vice-chancellor Koen Lamberts said the initiative wanted to "change the way people think about racism".
...

Rather than being about controlling people's speech, the university says it is "opening up a conversation".


It says the equality roles are being created in response to demand from students, training them how "to help their peers understand racism and its impact".


There are reasons to fear that people given a mandate to do something can interpret it in extreme ways to very bad effect. As I mentioned earlier there is Zimbardi's Stanford Prison Experiment where students played roles of prison guards and inmates and rapidly turned to extremes of behaviour. But this scheme AFAIK has no uniforms and no sanctions and an emphasis on constructive conversation so it seems to me to be a long way from Zimbardi's prison.
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Re: Language Police

#124  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jan 17, 2020 9:47 am

don't get me started wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
I'm With Stupid wrote:
"Where are you from?" is probably one of the first questions you ask people at university whether they're foreign or not, because almost everyone has moved there from somewhere else.


Yup - in fact, it's a question I've grown so bored of over the years of universities, traveling and living in other countries that I just outright refuse even to ask it. Ironically, that could even be taken as being socially flawed too if someone asks you that easy-in social lubricant, you answer, then fail to follow up with the expected return of that question. I know there's awkward pauses when I don't respond with it! :)

In my younger days, though, I was always super ridiculously interested in people from different countries and ethnic backgrounds - to me it was far more exciting to meet someone from Botswana than from Blackpool just to hear something of them, maybe find out a little about their language, culture, and country. I think this is generally considered to be good manners. As you can't know in advance where someone's from, then I think it's easy to forgive assumptions which prove to be flawed. I think it should be easy to forgive any slight offense these clunky social interactions might cause, and I think it's healthy to fumble around and find common ground - it's hopefully how you learn to be more sophisticated.

I can see people growing weary of such things... Oh I'm from England... Yes, I was born here... My father was from Azerbaijan and moved to Abingdon when he was a kid. - but generally someone asking this many questions isn't trying to be anything other than interested.



I'm generally OK with being asked 'Where are you from?'
Mind you, sometimes young kids see me and loudly state 'Ah! America-jin da!'
(Oh, look, it's an American!) Oh, well, kids, eh?

On the other hand, I was once asked by some random person in the street here, 'Do you speak American?'
I thought that was a bit ignorant.

A friend of mine (white, American) who has lived here for over 20 years sometimes responds to the 'Where are you from?' question with 'Osaka'. This always creates a noticeable perturbation in the conversation... His reasoning is that he has lived in Osaka for longer than he has ever lived in any other place. It is also the case that, if the questioner is younger he can state that he has lived in Osaka longer than they have. If they have a right to state that they are from Osaka based on 19 years of residence, then his twenty something years surely entitles him to the same claim, right? I see what he is doing, but it is not a path I would pursue. Responding to a micro-aggression with a micro-aggression..hmmm.

On a related note, I teach a pre-study abroad course where I have to prepare students to go to an English speaking country for a year of English study. For many of them it is the first time to travel out of Japan. I try to give them a heads up on some of the things that might cause offense overseas. (Including assuming that non-white people cannot be 'really' British or Canadian or whatever.) This comes as a shock to some of them as they assume that 'Japanese are polite' and that it is not possible for a Japanese person to be inadvertently rude to a 'foreigner'.

One of the things I try to convey to them is that their identity as a Japanese person is not omni-relevant. Not every interaction will be based around the Nihonjin/Gaijin binary worldview. This will probably be a starting point for many interactions, particularly in the early days, but it recedes (or should recede) with increased intimacy with people and the host culture. You might start off as 'Ayumi from Japan' but you will end up as 'My friend Ayu.' or 'Ayumi from the tennis club' or the like.

I've never been mistaken for an American while in Japan. The few times my ethnicity/nationality came up was when a random person would ask me where I was from. And most of those were quite enthusiastic when they learned I was Dutch and spoke a bit of Japanese. Several of them thanked me for the fact that my ancestors gave the Japanese all kinds of scientific knowledge from 1600-1850.
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Re: Language Police

#125  Postby zoon » Jan 17, 2020 10:14 am

GrahamH wrote:
zoon wrote:
Hermit wrote:
don't get me started wrote:There are many cultural differences that come into play when people from different cultures interact. (Even English-speaking cultures can have very marked differences.) What is fine and unproblematic in once culture, can be a serious threat to face in another. No-one gets automatic dibs on what is and is not offensive.

As a result of what you and Spearthrower have written, whatever ambivalence I had initially concerning the Race Equality Champions project has melted away. It takes it upon itself to determine behaviour, no matter how micro in scale and possibly unintended, is objectively offensive and racist.

At best this is bound to result in an expensive train wreck situation. Providing safe rooms with colouring-in books for those who feel (justifiably or not) offended/triggered/traumatised is a much more worthwhile undertaking.

It would depend on whether the "healthy, open discussion" promised by Sheffield University includes discussing the points raised by Spearthrower and don't get me started, rather than shutting them down or dismissing them. Given their agenda, I agree that shutting down seems more likely.


What makes you think that? The phrase "healthy conversation" indicates that the intent is not to "shut down or dismiss".

From the article linked in the OP:

Vice-chancellor Koen Lamberts said the initiative wanted to "change the way people think about racism".
...

Rather than being about controlling people's speech, the university says it is "opening up a conversation".


It says the equality roles are being created in response to demand from students, training them how "to help their peers understand racism and its impact".

It does depend on how it's managed on the ground. I expect other universities and institutions will be watching to see how it works out.

Universities are coming under pressure from above to tackle racism more effectively. When hate speech against people on the basis of colour, race or nationality became illegal in the UK in 1986, there was controversy then about limiting free speech, but the laws have so far stayed put. The Equality and Human Rights Commission published a report (here) 3 months ago, in October 2019, saying that UK universities need to do more to tackle racial harassment among both students and staff; they included mention of English students being harassed in Welsh and Scottish universities, it wasn't all about skin colour. I presume universities can be sued if they don't do enough to counter hate speech.

Given that many of the Sheffield students are not from the UK, there's probably much to be said for all the students becoming aware at least of the UK laws around hate speech, and being clear about what can be officially challenged. Discussing microagressions is certainly trickier, especially as microaggression is not a scientific concept, and relies on subjective reports (Wikipedia article here). The Sheffield University website here says that "Champions will lead training sessions for students across campus and University residences, equipping students with skills for future life in a global workplace", which does seem to put the student "champions" in a very difficult position: are they supposed to be leading training sessions or discussion groups, how much authority and responsibility do they have? There is probably a groundswell of feeling among the majority UK students that racism needs to be tackled, so the discussions are unlikely to be hijacked by overt racism. Perhaps the initiative is best seen as an interesting experiment rather than a clear strategy?
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Re: Language Police

#126  Postby Hermit » Jan 17, 2020 11:00 am

GrahamH wrote:The phrase "healthy conversation" indicates that the intent is not to "shut down or dismiss".

The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions. Animal Farm is an excellent allegorical demonstration of that. While I am reminded of George Orwell's works, I suggest you consider that the intent to help students develop skills to challenge subtle but offensive comments can quickly morph into its opposite. Like war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength. "Healthy conversation" will be defined by the Ministry of Truth. Unhealthy conversation will be outlawed and its prohibition will be enforced by the Ministry of Love. And yes, going by history, governments promising such policies will be voted into office by the electorate.
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Re: Language Police

#127  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 11:02 am

zoon wrote:

Universities are coming under pressure from above to tackle racism more effectively.


According to the article the pressure at Sheffield is from students rather then "from above"
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Re: Language Police

#128  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 11:13 am

Hermit wrote:
GrahamH wrote:The phrase "healthy conversation" indicates that the intent is not to "shut down or dismiss".

The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions. Animal Farm is an excellent allegorical demonstration of that. While I am reminded of George Orwell's works, I suggest you consider that the intent to help students develop skills to challenge subtle but offensive comments can quickly morph into its opposite like war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength. "Healthy conversation" will be defined by the Ministry of Truth. Unhealthy conversation will be outlawed and its prohibition will be enforced by the Ministry of Love. And yes, going by history, governments promising such policies will be voted into office by the electorate.


Things can go wrong. Good intentions can have bad outcomes sometimes. But I don't see anyone actually making a case for why this programme is doomed to have a bad outcome.

Fictional dystopias have their place, but they aren't reliable forecasts.

So why will "constructive conversation" necessarily, or likely, "morph into its opposite"?

And who the fuk is "the ministry of truth" in this case?

And where do you get "Unhealthy conversation will be outlawed and its prohibition will be enforced" when there is no law, prohibition, sanction or penalty mentioned at all?

Maybe the "ministry of truth" is the people who claim that people exhibiting no racial bias will for sure be persecuted worse than than those living the effects of racism. Maybe the racists insisting they are not at all racist. Maybe the people claiming that freedom from oppression is in fact the worst kind of oppression. Or maybe it's those that want to shut down conversations about racism in the name of free speech.
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Re: Language Police

#129  Postby mrjonno » Jan 17, 2020 11:21 am

There is a big difference between deliberately insulting someone (which I'm a big fan of, some people need to be insulted) which is a vital part of life and accidentally insulting someone due to use of language.

If I've insulted someone by mistake feel free to inform me and I will try not to in future, but if I call you a fucking moronic cunt its quite deliberate and if I'm upset you by doing so I've used language correctly

In the end democracy and civilisation itself is about getting people who hate each other to be insulting without killing each other
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Re: Language Police

#130  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 11:23 am

Note this is not students left to make it as they go. There is expertise and support.

Content for the discussions has been developed by a wide range of students and academic experts at the University, and is designed to encourage students to have healthy, open discussions, express their opinions and think critically about issues such as the Windrush scandal, perceptions of racism in British society and microaggressions.


Are the academic experts the "ministry of truth"?
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Re: Language Police

#131  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 11:30 am

mrjonno wrote:There is a big difference between deliberately insulting someone (which I'm a big fan of, some people need to be insulted) which is a vital part of life and accidentally insulting someone due to use of language.

If I've insulted someone by mistake feel free to inform me and I will try not to in future, but if I call you a fucking moronic cunt its quite deliberate and if I'm upset you by doing so I've used language correctly

In the end democracy and civilisation itself is about getting people who hate each other to be insulting without killing each other


Are you concerned about being unintentionally humorous because that made me laugh.

The point of you asking people to tell you if you have inadvertently offended them is surely not to avoid doing so in future but to gather ammunition for future deliberate insults.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Language Police

#132  Postby Fallible » Jan 17, 2020 11:31 am

mrjonno wrote:There is a big difference between deliberately insulting someone (which I'm a big fan of, some people need to be insulted) which is a vital part of life and accidentally insulting someone due to use of language.

If I've insulted someone by mistake feel free to inform me and I will try not to in future, but if I call you a fucking moronic cunt its quite deliberate and if I'm upset you by doing so I've used language correctly

In the end democracy and civilisation itself is about getting people who hate each other to be insulting without killing each other



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Re: Language Police

#133  Postby mrjonno » Jan 17, 2020 11:51 am

GrahamH wrote:
mrjonno wrote:There is a big difference between deliberately insulting someone (which I'm a big fan of, some people need to be insulted) which is a vital part of life and accidentally insulting someone due to use of language.

If I've insulted someone by mistake feel free to inform me and I will try not to in future, but if I call you a fucking moronic cunt its quite deliberate and if I'm upset you by doing so I've used language correctly

In the end democracy and civilisation itself is about getting people who hate each other to be insulting without killing each other


Are you concerned about being unintentionally humorous because that made me laugh.

The point of you asking people to tell you if you have inadvertently offended them is surely not to avoid doing so in future but to gather ammunition for future deliberate insults.


An example would be if I was asked to describe a man who is 4 foot tall.

If I used the term 'dwarf' would that be offensive?, if it is (no idea what the correct term is) I wouldn't use it.
If using 'coloured' is offensive I not going to use that either.

If I call a Brexiter a racist wanker yeah sure I'm causing offence, good that was the intention
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Re: Language Police

#134  Postby zoon » Jan 17, 2020 12:09 pm

GrahamH wrote:
zoon wrote:

Universities are coming under pressure from above to tackle racism more effectively.


According to the article the pressure at Sheffield is from students rather then "from above"

If the pressure was only from the students, then making the whole thing so official would probably be overkill; discussion groups with no training element from the university would be enough? UK universities are required by law to act against racism, and if there is student pressure from below as well, then sessions which both give information on the law and on what are taken to be microaggressions, and which also encourage discussion, may be a helpful way forward.

It’s because there is also pressure from the student body that there is a chance discussion/training groups could be useful rather than merely inconclusive shouting matches on the one hand or a handing down of unenforceable rules to resentful recipients on the other. Whether they will work as hoped is yet to be seen? I don’t know how much of this sort of thing already happens in US universities.


Hermit wrote:
GrahamH wrote:The phrase "healthy conversation" indicates that the intent is not to "shut down or dismiss".

The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions. Animal Farm is an excellent allegorical demonstration of that. While I am reminded of George Orwell's works, I suggest you consider that the intent to help students develop skills to challenge subtle but offensive comments can quickly morph into its opposite. Like war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength. "Healthy conversation" will be defined by the Ministry of Truth. Unhealthy conversation will be outlawed and its prohibition will be enforced by the Ministry of Love. And yes, going by history, governments promising such policies will be voted into office by the electorate.

This kind of thing was being said when the laws against hate speech in the UK were first passed in the 1980s: they were an attack on fundamental freedom of speech and the thin end of the wedge. Certainly, as you say, laws about speech or anything else can morph into extreme oppression, the best if still uncertain defence against this is democracy with all its flaws. If Sheffield University tries to lay down what students can or cannot say beyond complying with UK law, they will get into difficulties. If they succeed in channelling what is almost certainly already a majority view among their students in a constructive way, so that there is a clearer consensus on campus as to what is acceptable, this could improve both their ratings on the student experience, and the extent to which they find UK law breathing down their necks. Supported student “champions” looks like an experiment that may or may not work, or may need to be tweaked.
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Re: Language Police

#135  Postby Svartalf » Jan 17, 2020 12:18 pm

mrjonno wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
mrjonno wrote:There is a big difference between deliberately insulting someone (which I'm a big fan of, some people need to be insulted) which is a vital part of life and accidentally insulting someone due to use of language.

If I've insulted someone by mistake feel free to inform me and I will try not to in future, but if I call you a fucking moronic cunt its quite deliberate and if I'm upset you by doing so I've used language correctly

In the end democracy and civilisation itself is about getting people who hate each other to be insulting without killing each other


Are you concerned about being unintentionally humorous because that made me laugh.

The point of you asking people to tell you if you have inadvertently offended them is surely not to avoid doing so in future but to gather ammunition for future deliberate insults.


An example would be if I was asked to describe a man who is 4 foot tall.


If I used the term 'dwarf' would that be offensive?, if it is (no idea what the correct term is) I wouldn't use it.
If using 'coloured' is offensive I not going to use that either.

If I call a Brexiter a racist wanker yeah sure I'm causing offence, good that was the intention

I hear that "lilliputian" is less offensive than "dwarf" to describe an overly short person, even though dwarfism is an actual set of medical conditions.

As for coloured, sorry, but since negro, darkie and nigger are all officially on the racist list, I still need a word to describe that segment of the population.
And I don't know about racist wanker, but most brexiteers are outright morons to begin with (except those from the 1% who have actual plans to benefit from the split, and those... I am not sure I know any properly insulting terms to describe them).
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Re: Language Police

#136  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 12:45 pm

Svartalf wrote: I still need a word to describe that segment [negro, darkie and nigger] of the population.

So you? Maybe in a conversation about racism a term denoting groups subjected to racism is needed, in which case those would be bad choices, and racists will need a derogatory term to express their racism, but otherwise why does anyone need to refer to people by their skin colour?

Do you often find yourself grasping for a word to use in place of one of those that presumably comes to your mind most readily?
Do you also "describe that segment of the population" in terms of eye colour or hairstyle or something?
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Re: Language Police

#137  Postby Hermit » Jan 17, 2020 1:19 pm

GrahamH wrote:So why will "constructive conversation" necessarily, or likely, "morph into its opposite"?

Ask someone who used the word "necessarily". Here is what I did say:
Hermit wrote:the intent to help students develop skills to challenge subtle but offensive comments can quickly morph into its opposite.

Then
Hermit wrote:Unhealthy conversation will be outlawed and its prohibition will be enforced by the Ministry of Love.

It doesn't really take much to progress from the intention to challenge subtle but offensive comments to criminalising them and prosecuting their authors. Holocaust denial, for example, has become a criminal offence in 22 countries. In Germany, Austria, France and Switzerland prosecutions of holocaust deniers have led to jail sentences.
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Re: Language Police

#138  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 1:28 pm

Hermit wrote:
GrahamH wrote:So why will "constructive conversation" necessarily, or likely, "morph into its opposite"?

Ask someone who used the word "necessarily". Here is what I did say:
Hermit wrote:the intent to help students develop skills to challenge subtle but offensive comments can quickly morph into its opposite.

Then
Hermit wrote:Unhealthy conversation will be outlawed and its prohibition will be enforced by the Ministry of Love.

It doesn't really take much progress from the intention to challenge subtle but offensive comments to criminalising them and prosecuting their authors. Holocaust denial, for example, has become a criminal offence in 22 countries. In Germany, Austria, France and Switzerland prosecutions of holocaust deniers have led to jail sentences.


You've given no reasons to justify your fears there.


You are making huge leaps there. From constructive conversations about racist micro-agressions to "outlawed", prohibition", "enforced", "ministry of truth", "criminalising".

You are pulling this out of which orifice?

Are you siding with holocaust deniers now? :shock:

Are people who deny well documented history for highly dubious, surely racist, reasons some of these people you imagine will be unfairly treated on campus for their "subtle but offensive comments"?

WTF are you on about?
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Re: Language Police

#139  Postby Hermit » Jan 17, 2020 1:53 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Hermit wrote:
GrahamH wrote:So why will "constructive conversation" necessarily, or likely, "morph into its opposite"?

Ask someone who used the word "necessarily". Here is what I did say:
Hermit wrote:the intent to help students develop skills to challenge subtle but offensive comments can quickly morph into its opposite.

Then
Hermit wrote:Unhealthy conversation will be outlawed and its prohibition will be enforced by the Ministry of Love.

It doesn't really take much progress from the intention to challenge subtle but offensive comments to criminalising them and prosecuting their authors. Holocaust denial, for example, has become a criminal offence in 22 countries. In Germany, Austria, France and Switzerland prosecutions of holocaust deniers have led to jail sentences.

You've given no reasons to justify your fears there.

Yes, I have. Flipping from challenging microaggressions to criminalising them is easily done. It just takes an expansion of what hate speech is. In the countries where holocaust deniers have been jailed they were prosecuted because holocaust denial has been defined as hate speech.

GrahamH wrote:You are making huge leaps there. From constructive conversations about racist micro-agressions to "outlawed", prohibition", "enforced", "ministry of truth", "criminalising".

See above.

GrahamH wrote:You are pulling this out of which orifice?

Pull what out of an orifice? The move from discouraging holocaust denial to making it a criminal offence?

GrahamH wrote:Are you siding with holocaust deniers now? :shock:

You're trolling now.

GrahamH wrote:Are people who deny well documented history for highly dubious, surely racist, reasons some of these people you imagine will be unfairly treated on campus for their "subtle but offensive comments"?

No.

GrahamH wrote:WTF are you on about?

Hermit wrote:...an official body that can all too easily morph into a powerful bunch tasked with enforcing political correctness. It then only takes a redefinition/expansion of what is politically correct for it to become a tool for oppression.
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Re: Language Police

#140  Postby GrahamH » Jan 17, 2020 2:12 pm

Hermit wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Are you siding with holocaust deniers now? :shock:

You're trolling now.


You do seem to be holding up holocaust deniers as a group that exemplifies what some might call "PC gone mad", that you are suggesting is the sort of thing this "constructive conversation" will lead to.
You haven't connected the dots from constructive conversation to holocaust denial or the criminalisation of holocaust denial.

I'm not sure many here would think that Holocaust denial is or ever was even remotely comparable to "micro-aggressions".
It started out as anti-Semitic hate speech and the change was to criminalise it, not to wildly escalate it from unintentional bias to a crime.

Or are you really saying that people used to be able to say whatever racist thing they liked and now we call it hate speech and you wish for those days where racism was rampant, open and normalised?
Why do you think that?
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