Science versus Democracy

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Science or Democracy?

Ban evolution (choose democracy)
3
8%
Veto the referendum (choose science)
34
92%
 
Total votes : 37

Re: Science versus Democracy

#21  Postby Moridin » May 23, 2010 10:05 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Moridin wrote:
tuco wrote:Yes, I believe that majority is to decide basically everything. Right - wrong does not even come to equitation.


So if the majority believed that the Holocaust never happened, does this, in your view, change the historical fact of the Holocaust? If not, why should majority beliefs regarding whether or not evolution should be taught as science change reality?


Your problem with this whole argument (which we begun in that other thread), is that you apparently want there to be an objective 'right' or 'wrong' answer. Your analogy of the holocaust gives this away as the holocaust can be objectively said to have occurred. But this isn't the case with your democracy/evolution question.


Sure it is. Evolution is science and science is taught in the science education by definition. So therefore, evolution should be taught in the science classroom. Now, not everything that is science can be taught in the science classroom, but evolution is the central unifying theory of biology, so it deserves a spot for this very reason.

Notice that nothing of this is subjective opinion. It is fact.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#22  Postby rEvolutionist » May 23, 2010 10:17 am

Moridin wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Moridin wrote:
tuco wrote:Yes, I believe that majority is to decide basically everything. Right - wrong does not even come to equitation.


So if the majority believed that the Holocaust never happened, does this, in your view, change the historical fact of the Holocaust? If not, why should majority beliefs regarding whether or not evolution should be taught as science change reality?


Your problem with this whole argument (which we begun in that other thread), is that you apparently want there to be an objective 'right' or 'wrong' answer. Your analogy of the holocaust gives this away as the holocaust can be objectively said to have occurred. But this isn't the case with your democracy/evolution question.


Sure it is. Evolution is science and science is taught in the science education by definition. So therefore, evolution should be taught in the science classroom. Now, not everything that is science can be taught in the science classroom, but evolution is the central unifying theory of biology, so it deserves a spot for this very reason.

Notice that nothing of this is subjective opinion. It is fact.


Yes, but this isn't what you said in your OP and subsequent post (or two). You said: if the population votes to not teach evolution, is this "right"? It's certainly stupid, but it's neither wrong nor right.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#23  Postby trubble76 » May 23, 2010 10:22 am

If I were a leader, i'd work on the principle of what's right is right, even if it's unpopular. If I didn't get re-elected at the next dissolution of government then so be it, but at least my beloved country would have a few years of reality.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#24  Postby rEvolutionist » May 23, 2010 10:23 am

Ok, I've had a re-read of what you wrote and the subsequent posts, and I can see that you probably weren't implying that not teaching it is "wrong". Your wording just isn't very clear. Am I right in saying that you are making the point that while ever the country agrees to teach "Science", then it should also therefore teach "Evolution"? If so, then I agree with you.

But I would like to modify the scenario a little bit and throw it back at you:
What if the population decided that they wanted to ban the teaching of "Science" as a whole discipline? Do they have the "right" to do that?
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#25  Postby King Hazza » May 26, 2010 5:03 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
But I would like to modify the scenario a little bit and throw it back at you:
What if the population decided that they wanted to ban the teaching of "Science" as a whole discipline? Do they have the "right" to do that?

Yes, they do- and they will reap the consequences, as grownups must.
They will live in an ignorant backward age and get to experience the utopia they dreamed of first-hand, as proof that it doesn't work (or maybe does in the greater scheme of things?) and set a concrete example of raw proof for other countries to know the exact consequence of what they did.
From there they can either find a way to function without it (useful examples for others also) or, simply, realize they did something really dumb and quickly change it back.

Another thing people don't actually grasp with a direct-democracy- when the people fuck up, the people are the first to know and the first to want to correct their mistake. It's probably the BEST system for making bad decisions because there is the least to lose from doing a backflip and reverting back to the previous discourse once the lessons were learnt- as opposed to a politician trying to save face- it aint written in stone.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#26  Postby Byron » May 26, 2010 5:21 am

I'd veto the anti-evolution majority in a heartbeat. If I can be against tyranny of the majority, and I am, I can also be against the tyranny of the pig-ignorant. :snooty:
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#27  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » May 26, 2010 10:11 pm

King Hazza wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
But I would like to modify the scenario a little bit and throw it back at you:
What if the population decided that they wanted to ban the teaching of "Science" as a whole discipline? Do they have the "right" to do that?

Yes, they do- and they will reap the consequences, as grownups must.
They will live in an ignorant backward age and get to experience the utopia they dreamed of first-hand, as proof that it doesn't work (or maybe does in the greater scheme of things?) and set a concrete example of raw proof for other countries to know the exact consequence of what they did.
From there they can either find a way to function without it (useful examples for others also) or, simply, realize they did something really dumb and quickly change it back.

Another thing people don't actually grasp with a direct-democracy- when the people fuck up, the people are the first to know and the first to want to correct their mistake. It's probably the BEST system for making bad decisions because there is the least to lose from doing a backflip and reverting back to the previous discourse once the lessons were learnt- as opposed to a politician trying to save face- it aint written in stone.

Speculating on a population voting to outlaw the teaching of science is like speculating on the Sun burning out tomorrow, it ain't gonna happen. Culture's have thrusts, they adhere to many five and ten and 20 year policies, within which they stake their claims. The history of Western nations is that the idea of not teaching science has never even been suggested as a viable policy going forward, other than perhaps by a few isolated whackos. Culture's don't usually follow their whackos, they follow their brilliant, who are made known to them through books and movies and media.

Any typical or common or ordinary or average or midddle-of-the-road Westerner wouldn't even think twice about a proposition to outlaw the teaching of science. We may consider them to be a little confused and not too hip, but they do know that their lives are dependent on science. They "know" that much. I mean, they may be dumb but they're not stupid. It's not an idea that would or could be made into a mainstream issue up for serious consideration. Even Sarah Palin likes her jet planes and I'm sure if she ever needs a liver xplant she'll be glad she can get one (assuming a donor can be found).

Nobody in the West would find the least attraction to a proposition of not teaching science ever again.

Here's a question: How many hours a day would the average Joe have to spend on governence in a "direct democracy" situation? An hour? A half hour? Ten hours?

Informed decisions require informed views; informed views come from studying an issue, learning its ins and outs and upsides and downsides. Congresspersons have huge staffs to do this work for them, who then merely brief them on the issues. In a direct democracy I would not have a huge staff at my command, I'd have to do all the research myself, or, run the risk of making some very bad decisions. Most issues today are supremely complicated and thus require boatloads of time to come to grips with (or a huge staff), and they often carry a lot of scientific implications.

Overarching policy is another matter. Advocates make their pitches (or do their teach-ins or write their books) for this or that schema and then people vote, selecting the one that sounds the best to them. This is a bit easier to grapple with than specific issues, where the rubber meets the road of making society work.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#28  Postby Squeak_Rustfur » May 26, 2010 11:52 pm

Veto. Screw Democracy.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#29  Postby NineOneFour » May 27, 2010 2:31 am

Moridin wrote:Imagine the following hypothetical situation. You are the new President of a large democratic country. The former President was a creationist and the country held a referendum on whether or not to remove the teaching of evolution. The results where unanimous, the people want to ban the teaching of evolution.

As the President, imagine that you now have two options:

(1) follow the voice of the people and ban evolution (you value democracy over scientific evidence)
(2) veto the referendum (you value scientific evidence over democracy)

What would you choose, and why?


2

Fuck em.

Democracy, yes.

Stupidity, no.

You don't get to vote on everything in a democratic republic. Civil rights would be one. Another would be denying reality.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#30  Postby PairOfFeet » May 27, 2010 5:30 am

andyx1205 wrote:I voted science. If the majority of the population wants to legalize slavery, it doesn't mean that it's right.

+1
XiledSpawn wrote:
ray wrote:I have my own beliefs and you have yours.


Do you consider off a tv channel?
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#31  Postby Moridin » May 27, 2010 5:46 am

NineOneFour wrote:
Moridin wrote:Imagine the following hypothetical situation. You are the new President of a large democratic country. The former President was a creationist and the country held a referendum on whether or not to remove the teaching of evolution. The results where unanimous, the people want to ban the teaching of evolution.

As the President, imagine that you now have two options:

(1) follow the voice of the people and ban evolution (you value democracy over scientific evidence)
(2) veto the referendum (you value scientific evidence over democracy)

What would you choose, and why?


2

Fuck em.

Democracy, yes.

Stupidity, no.

You don't get to vote on everything in a democratic republic. Civil rights would be one. Another would be denying reality.


But you are actively preferring scientific validity of democracy.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#32  Postby blackarmada » May 27, 2010 5:54 am

But you are actively preferring scientific validity of democracy.


What in the world does this even mean?
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#33  Postby Moridin » May 27, 2010 5:55 am

blackarmada wrote:
But you are actively preferring scientific validity of democracy.


What in the world does this even mean?


over democracy*
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#34  Postby mrjonno » May 27, 2010 6:36 am

PairOfFeet wrote:
andyx1205 wrote:I voted science. If the majority of the population wants to legalize slavery, it doesn't mean that it's right.

+1



No it probably means the country is screwed up beyond salvation and the intelligent minority are probably better of trying to find somewhere else to live.

Democracy only works when both the winning and losing sides have enough in common to live and work with each other. If that fails then only a dictatorship is going to keep the country together and I'm not even sure its worth trying
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#35  Postby Festeringbob » May 27, 2010 8:53 am

option 3, privatise the schooling system
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#36  Postby King Hazza » May 27, 2010 9:21 am

Fact-Man
First point- correct, I don't believe any educated first-world country would want to drop science. A backward third-world country, quite likely- and keep in mind, any nation where the people WOULD choose ignorance over science is probably doing the world a BIG favor by effectively crippling and isolating itself, instead of creating a stronger presence.

Second- Direct Democracy can just mean the public (via referenda) have ultimate rights over any other public authority. Which means we could continue with an elected, administrative policy-making body that may put forward proposals to a senate as normal- but these may be put to public referendum if they either overlap an important constitutional issue or simply if either a certain amount of senators (or public via petition) say it must. It doesn't actually have to be an anarchist system.

mrjonno wrote:
PairOfFeet wrote:
andyx1205 wrote:I voted science. If the majority of the population wants to legalize slavery, it doesn't mean that it's right.

+1



No it probably means the country is screwed up beyond salvation and the intelligent minority are probably better of trying to find somewhere else to live.

Democracy only works when both the winning and losing sides have enough in common to live and work with each other. If that fails then only a dictatorship is going to keep the country together and I'm not even sure its worth trying

Agree completely- and really, that's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#37  Postby NineOneFour » May 27, 2010 10:53 am

Moridin wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
Moridin wrote:Imagine the following hypothetical situation. You are the new President of a large democratic country. The former President was a creationist and the country held a referendum on whether or not to remove the teaching of evolution. The results where unanimous, the people want to ban the teaching of evolution.

As the President, imagine that you now have two options:

(1) follow the voice of the people and ban evolution (you value democracy over scientific evidence)
(2) veto the referendum (you value scientific evidence over democracy)

What would you choose, and why?


2

Fuck em.

Democracy, yes.

Stupidity, no.

You don't get to vote on everything in a democratic republic. Civil rights would be one. Another would be denying reality.


But you are actively preferring scientific validity of democracy.


No, I am actively preferring scientific validity over democracy.
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#38  Postby NineOneFour » May 27, 2010 10:54 am

Moridin wrote:
blackarmada wrote:
But you are actively preferring scientific validity of democracy.


What in the world does this even mean?


over democracy*


Whoops, yes, true. :)
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#39  Postby mrjonno » May 27, 2010 1:12 pm

First point- correct, I don't believe any educated first-world country would want to drop science. A backward third-world country, quite likely- and keep in mind, any nation where the people WOULD choose ignorance over science is probably doing the world a BIG favor by effectively crippling and isolating itself, instead of creating a stronger presence


Problem is the US is 'exceptional' in this point, it is the only industrialised nation that really takes religion seriously. Its really hard to explain to an American how religious their country until they visit Europe (well most of it). Its not that most of us are atheists here , its that most of us don't give a shit about religion outside marriage and funerals
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Re: Science versus Democracy

#40  Postby King Hazza » May 27, 2010 2:39 pm

Well America is simply a case of ultra-religious communities sharing sovereignty with highly secularized, scientific communities. The secular people and scientists keep making advancements, the loonies keep tilting the scales during elections towards conservative religious governments who decide how these advancements are used (or not)- and both threaten the way of life of the other every day.
Which is why I'm such a big advocate for allowing states to secede from larger bodies- they're getting what they want, and are only doing the other population a big favor by ridding themselves (moreso in a democracy with a more direct say in governance in some form).
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