Spain is not a dictatorship maybe you have not noticed.

Nice dodge ...Spain is acting as a fascist state which is not a dictatorship but rather an oppressive state.
The nature of modern states protects minorities from oppression ( often not successfully as in this case ).....Spain is not protecting it's Cartalan minority or addressing their concerns
Catalonia has long standing grievances which have not been addressed satisfactorily so there is an independence movement and Catalonia can CERTAINLY stand on its own as an autonomous and fully independent state

as to your "massive majority" nonsense....times change.

Arguments against Women's Suffrage - John D Clare
http://www.johndclare.net/Women1_ArgumentsAgainst.htm
But not only men, but women, opposed the idea of votes for women: ... Because there is little doubt that the vast majority of women have no desire for the vote.

Macdoc wrote:

Spain is not a dictatorship maybe you have not noticed.

Nice dodge ...Spain is acting as a fascist state which is not a dictatorship but rather an oppressive state.
The nature of modern states protects minorities from oppression ( often not successfully as in this case ).....Spain is not protecting it's Cartalan minority or addressing their concerns
Catalonia has long standing grievances which have not been addressed satisfactorily so there is an independence movement and Catalonia can CERTAINLY stand on its own as an autonomous and fully independent state

as to your "massive majority" nonsense....times change.

Arguments against Women's Suffrage - John D Clare
http://www.johndclare.net/Women1_ArgumentsAgainst.htm
But not only men, but women, opposed the idea of votes for women: ... Because there is little doubt that the vast majority of women have no desire for the vote.

By analogy Women should have worked strictly within the status quo and sought to persuade men to give them the vote, although the analogy demands that men would refuse to discuss the issue and make polling of women's views a crime of sedition.

or asking the UK about Indian Independence in 1890

GrahamH wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:
The constitution was approved by massive majority. So work within it. Spain is not a dictatorship maybe you have not noticed.

A constitution is not just for Christmas, is it Scott? It's for all time. Don't dare complain that your grandfather got you the bloody thing and you really can't stand it. It's the law and it's written to make it illegal for you or your children or grand children do a damn thing about it. They own you now.

Once again lack of knowledge is obvious.

Macdoc wrote:

Spain is not a dictatorship maybe you have not noticed.

Nice dodge ...Spain is acting as a fascist state which is not a dictatorship but rather an oppressive state.
The nature of modern states protects minorities from oppression ( often not successfully as in this case ).....Spain is not protecting it's Cartalan minority or addressing their concerns
Catalonia has long standing grievances which have not been addressed satisfactorily so there is an independence movement and Catalonia can CERTAINLY stand on its own as an autonomous and fully independent state

as to your "massive majority" nonsense....times change.

Arguments against Women's Suffrage - John D Clare
http://www.johndclare.net/Women1_ArgumentsAgainst.htm
But not only men, but women, opposed the idea of votes for women: ... Because there is little doubt that the vast majority of women have no desire for the vote.

Nice cherry picking again. Acting as a fascist state when it suits you. It is the constitutional elected government acting within the constitution. 87% of the population voted for the constitution in a referendum. Many democratic countries would be very happy to have such backing for their constitution.
What has the red herring over women voters got to do with anything.

Scot Dutchy wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:
The constitution was approved by massive majority. So work within it. Spain is not a dictatorship maybe you have not noticed.

A constitution is not just for Christmas, is it Scott? It's for all time. Don't dare complain that your grandfather got you the bloody thing and you really can't stand it. It's the law and it's written to make it illegal for you or your children or grand children do a damn thing about it. They own you now.

Once again lack of knowledge is obvious.

That's not lack of knowledge, it's justified sarcasm.

First of all, constitutional frameworks, when done properly, are designed to be mutable to take account of new circumstances. Even the US Constitution, which some mistakenly think is handed down from on high and set in stone forever, has had amendments attached to it.

If the Spanish government were doing their job properly, they would have recognised that there exists an impetus for independence in Catalonia, and if the constitution didn't permit a referendum, amended said constitution to permit that referendum. This would have avoided all the nastiness we saw on our TV screens.

Instead, the Spanish government chose to shut the door in the face of the Catalans from the outset, refusing to acknowledge that impetus for independence, and waded in with violence when the Catalans, who were naturally hacked off by said intransigence, tried to go forward via a properly constituted referendum anyway. As a corollary of this action being taken, the Spanish government has made it all the more likely, that those seeking independence will now opt for more troublesome means, possibly taking their cue from the Basque ETA. If that happens, no amount of wibbling about constitutions will resolve the ensuing mess.

A far better way of keeping Spain unified, would have been to sit down with the Catalans, discuss a range of autonomy options within the current state, including letting them have a referendum to determine the actual level of impetus for independence. Because a conciliatory approach by Madrid might well have lessened that impetus, and, though risky, would have provided a much more robust foundation for keeping Spain unified than existed previously.

Quite simply, if your laws are getting in the way of achieving something constructive, to everyone's agreed mutual benefit, then you change those laws.

Just going to leave these here ...

Nicola Sturgeon says new year report will make a fresh case for independence

Support for Scottish independence surges amid Brexit chaos

ronmcd wrote:Just going to leave these here ...

Nicola Sturgeon says new year report will make a fresh case for independence

Support for Scottish independence surges amid Brexit chaos

It's 'surged' by 1% in the past month, and returned to the same levels of March and April of this year, having declined by 6% since July 2016? Looking at Survation only, that is.

Well, it's "surged" according to the pro independence National newspaper, a publication well known for it's lack of hyperbole and understated use of photoshopping .

However, it is a strong base from which to build if a new referendum were to happen. Considering we in Scotland have been told independence is dead by Major General Ruth Davidson, PM elect, and the *true First Minister of Scotland.

*may not be true

From that survation poll:

Should Scotland be an independent country?
Under 55s: Yes 57% No 43%
Over 55s: Yes 32% No 68%

ronmcd wrote:From that survation poll:

Should Scotland be an independent country?
Under 55s: Yes 57% No 43%
Over 55s: Yes 32% No 68%

Looks pretty like the brexit results, young versus old. Doesn't tell you who would win unless you can put an obstacle course at the ballot boxes to stop the elderly getting in (I should trade mark that)

mrjonno wrote:

ronmcd wrote:From that survation poll:

Should Scotland be an independent country?
Under 55s: Yes 57% No 43%
Over 55s: Yes 32% No 68%

Looks pretty like the brexit results, young versus old. Doesn't tell you who would win unless you can put an obstacle course at the ballot boxes to stop the elderly getting in (I should trade mark that)

Rajoy probably beat you to it.

mrjonno wrote:

ronmcd wrote:From that survation poll:

Should Scotland be an independent country?
Under 55s: Yes 57% No 43%
Over 55s: Yes 32% No 68%

Looks pretty like the brexit results, young versus old. ...

Except in reverse. For brexit the young wanted to remain and the old wanted to leave. For Scotland they want to leave and the old want to remain.

Presumably a vote for independence is a vote to be part of the EU, you would need to be really stupid to be a small country alone in the world (ie the English)

GrahamH wrote:

mrjonno wrote:

ronmcd wrote:From that survation poll:

Should Scotland be an independent country?
Under 55s: Yes 57% No 43%
Over 55s: Yes 32% No 68%

Looks pretty like the brexit results, young versus old. ...

Except in reverse. For brexit the young wanted to remain and the old wanted to leave. For Scotland they want to leave and the old want to remain.

Oh what wise young people we have

mrjonno wrote:

ronmcd wrote:From that survation poll:

Should Scotland be an independent country?
Under 55s: Yes 57% No 43%
Over 55s: Yes 32% No 68%

Looks pretty like the brexit results, young versus old. Doesn't tell you who would win unless you can put an obstacle course at the ballot boxes to stop the elderly getting in (I should trade mark that)

Or if there was a particularly cold winter.

electricwhiteboy wrote:

mrjonno wrote:

ronmcd wrote:From that survation poll:

Should Scotland be an independent country?
Under 55s: Yes 57% No 43%
Over 55s: Yes 32% No 68%

Looks pretty like the brexit results, young versus old. Doesn't tell you who would win unless you can put an obstacle course at the ballot boxes to stop the elderly getting in (I should trade mark that)

Or if there was a particularly cold winter.

Or a hot sum.... never mind.

Should Scotland be an independent country?
Under 55s: Yes 57% No 43%
Over 55s: Yes 32% No 68%

The real question is if that is a cohort effect or simply that people are more cautious as they get older

I doubt it's a higher level of caution in the elderly, as much as a higher level of nostalgia for a Britishness that the younger generations have never experienced.