Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

tuco · **#21** by **tuco** » May 26, 2016 8:48 pm

Fair enough, I was under impression we were clearing up our positions and chit-chatting :) Shrunk used 5 words, enough said.

Boyle · **#22** by **Boyle** » May 26, 2016 9:29 pm

Gah, sorry, I'm used to things here being adversarial.

ScholasticSpastic · **#23** by **ScholasticSpastic** » May 26, 2016 9:41 pm

No you're not.

Boyle · **#24** by **Boyle** » May 26, 2016 9:59 pm

Yes I am.

felltoearth · **#25** by **felltoearth** » May 27, 2016 12:57 am

ScholasticSpastic wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
How do you know?

Take a wet swab and transfer material from your hands to a petri dish with appropriate media. Do the same with your genitals. Genitals are much, much cleaner than hands in terms of both colony counts and the number of those colony forming units which are pathogenic. Genitals are also usually quite a bit cleaner than hands in terms of basic hygiene. Sure, we wash our hands several times a day and our genitals usually only get washed once, but most of us don't touch as many things with our genitals as with our hands.

Griz_ · **#26** by **Griz_** » May 27, 2016 3:16 am

How do they handle the student with avoidant personality disorder (yes, it's a thing)? And what about those who suffer from obsessive-compulsive disorder and are germaphobes? What about the student that doesn't wish to shake his teacher's hand because the teacher was an asshole earlier in the day.

Sometimes it's best that we abandon silly customs because that's exactly what they are.

But, you could make handshaking optional, that would keep everyone happy right?

No, that would make those who do not engage feel left out and uncomfortable. We can't have that now, can we?

Best to just ban the practice altogether then.

No, that would be affront to the traditions of the Swiss culture and tradition!

I give up. All this over a fucking handshake. I'm reminded of a quote that refers to hills and if you want to die on them or not.

Rachel Bronwyn · **#27** by **Rachel Bronwyn** » May 27, 2016 8:36 am

ScholasticSpastic wrote:Why should the teachers be so excited about touching children? I hate handshakes. Hands are filthy. You transfer fewer cooties taking a stranger's genitals in your mouth.

ETA: This is only half-true. Mouths are even filthier than hands. So the stranger is getting the bad end of this deal. Cooties-wise, I mean.

Hopefully not in any other respect. Germy AND dissatisfying is just adding insult to injury.

Rumraket · **#28** by **Rumraket** » May 27, 2016 9:20 am

I'm all for doing away with handshaking for practical biological reasons.

But to refrain from handshaking for idiotic religious reasons that say it's a form of sexually sinful contact that somehow "soils" the virtuosity and innosence of females is backwards and it's perfectly fine to say as much.

"I'm a muslim" is a bad reason for not shaking hands with members of the opposite sex. It is an insult to any thinking person. MY GOD YOUR DOUBLE X-CHROMOSOMES DEFILE MY SOUL.

tuco · **#29** by **tuco** » May 27, 2016 9:34 am

I am thinking person and it is no insult to me not to shake my hand for ANY reason thus you are wrong. Speak for yourself.

Rumraket · **#30** by **Rumraket** » May 27, 2016 11:33 am

tuco wrote:I am thinking person and it is no insult to me not to shake my hand for ANY reason thus you are wrong.

Yes, it is an insult. The fact that you don't feel insulted doesn't mean someone is not insulting you.

tuco wrote:Speak for yourself.

Make me.

logical bob · **#31** by **logical bob** » May 27, 2016 1:06 pm

If shaking your hand seems to make a child upset but you use your position of authority to insist they shake it anyway then you may well be behaving like a dick. If you're a teacher in a caring role and you know that one of your students has a father who's an intolerant fundamentalist you should really consider cutting the kid some slack.

However much you might disagree and want to argue with the father/imam and with whatever group of religious adults supported his stand you shouldn't have that argument by proxy by forcing children further between a rock and a hard place than they already are.

I'm reminded of the French schools in areas with National Front controlled local government that, after Charlie Hebdo, stopped offering an alternative to pork in the canteen and made Muslim kids just eat the vegetables. There's really no need to be picking a fight with children.

Cthulhu's Trilby · **#32** by **Cthulhu's Trilby** » May 27, 2016 2:40 pm

ScholasticSpastic wrote:I hate handshakes. Hands are filthy. You transfer fewer cooties taking a stranger's genitals in your mouth.

Well I suppose they could consider it as an option, but after every class?

Shrunk · **#33** by **Shrunk** » May 27, 2016 2:50 pm

Rumraket wrote:
tuco wrote:I am thinking person and it is no insult to me not to shake my hand for ANY reason thus you are wrong.

Yes, it is an insult. The fact that you don't feel insulted doesn't mean someone is not insulting you.

I don't see how this is an insult, anymore than it would be an insult if a Muslim kid refused to eat a pork dinner that someone had prepared.

logical bob · **#34** by **logical bob** » May 27, 2016 3:19 pm

Shrunk wrote:I don't see how this is an insult, anymore than it would be an insult if a Muslim kid refused to eat a pork dinner that someone had prepared.

Or if a vegetarian refused to eat a pork dinner someone had prepared. We shouldn't necessarily focus on the religion aspect. In fact, it's very difficult to separate religion from culture. Few people would call the Swiss etiquette of hand shaking Christian, but there might not be any stronger reason to call the students' reluctance to shake hands Islamic rather than cultural.

Rumraket · **#35** by **Rumraket** » May 27, 2016 3:55 pm

logical bob wrote:If shaking your hand seems to make a child upset but you use your position of authority to insist they shake it anyway then you may well be behaving like a dick. If you're a teacher in a caring role and you know that one of your students has a father who's an intolerant fundamentalist you should really consider cutting the kid some slack.

However much you might disagree and want to argue with the father/imam and with whatever group of religious adults supported his stand you shouldn't have that argument by proxy by forcing children further between a rock and a hard place than they already are.

I'm reminded of the French schools in areas with National Front controlled local government that, after Charlie Hebdo, stopped offering an alternative to pork in the canteen and made Muslim kids just eat the vegetables. There's really no need to be picking a fight with children.

I want to point out that I think it's anyone's right to refuse to shake another person's hands, whether those reasons are good or bad. But at the same time, I think the reasons stated in islamic culture (whether cultural or religious) are bad reasons for doing so. It's because the view is that contact between the sexes is somehow bad and leads to sin or is itself sinful.

Rumraket · **#36** by **Rumraket** » May 27, 2016 4:02 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
tuco wrote:I am thinking person and it is no insult to me not to shake my hand for ANY reason thus you are wrong.

Yes, it is an insult. The fact that you don't feel insulted doesn't mean someone is not insulting you.

I don't see how this is an insult, anymore than it would be an insult if a Muslim kid refused to eat a pork dinner that someone had prepared.

If the reason they didn't eat a pork dinner you had prepared was that you had touched the pork and thereby corrupted it and made it sinful, then yes it would be insulting. Of course, that's not why they don't eat pork. While the reason is silly (all religions have many silly prohibitions), at least it isn't insulting.

As it stands I think there's a pretty large difference between not wanting to touch a member of the opposite sex and not eating a dinner because certain foods are prohibited. There isn't an implication that the other person is going to corrupt you if you eat their food. Rather it is the food itself that is prohibited. Technically it's silly not to eat pork (because pigs evolved like all other animals did, they weren't created by god), but at least it isn't insulting.

monkeyboy · **#37** by **monkeyboy** » May 27, 2016 4:37 pm

Rumraket wrote:
If the reason they didn't eat a pork dinner you had prepared was that you had touched the pork and thereby corrupted it and made it sinful, then yes it would be insulting. Of course, that's not why they don't eat pork. While the reason is silly (all religions have many silly prohibitions), at least it isn't insulting.

I won't eat a salad sandwich which has been contaminated with cucumber. It is the vegetable of the Devil himself and ruins everything it touches. It's no good removing it as an afterthought to accommodate my loathing for it, I will know it was there and my otherwise tasty sandwich will be ruined and must be destroyed because it has been soiled by that disgustingly vile thing.

I'm a bit over the top about it and many people don't get my aversion to it. Thing is, we're all different for different reasons. No point trying to get me to change my ways or accommodate those minging slices of putresence having so much as touched my food, it's ruined and I won't eat it.

I'm not meaning to be difficult or insult anyone when I ask not to have cucumber in my salad. i don't kick off about prepared salads having it in, I just don't buy them. But I will kick off if after asking for it to be left out, someone belittles me or simply expects me to remove.it myself as if it's nothing. People around me get embarrassed that I make such a fuss but whose problem is it? I ask for an accommodation politely. Some people think it's nothing important or silly and take little heed to my request. It's then that the result appears to be a storm in a teacup. Turns out, it's not really the cucumber that's the big issue, it's the attitude of others to my dislike of it because I'm the odd one out.

If a person for whatever reason doesn't want to shake your hand, just politely accept it. Its their choice. Sure their reasoning might be silly in your eyes but forcing them to do it isn't going to bring about some simple capitulation and acceptance.

Boyle · **#38** by **Boyle** » May 27, 2016 5:04 pm

To be fair, this isn't not shaking hands once, it's not doing it twice every single school day. It's a silly custom, but it is a custom, and avoiding the custom only for women is obviously sexist, and yes, insulting. The reasoning isn't because they dislike shaking hands, it's because they don't like shaking hands with you. Maybe all they've been told is that it's inappropriate, maybe they've been told it's because women are unclean when they're on their periods, and since they don't know, they won't shake hands. Whatever the reason, it's still sexist and still insulting. Yes, it's a small and silly thing but I can definitely understand why the teachers would be annoyed by it.

The school was reported as having floated the idea of the boys just not shaking hands with anyone then. The article doesn't say why that didn't work out and it got elevated to national and international news anyway. I don't think there's really anything to be gained by forcing them to shake hands with the women at the school, so this decision only makes things worse.

tuco · **#39** by **tuco** » May 27, 2016 5:18 pm

Rumraket wrote:
tuco wrote:I am thinking person and it is no insult to me not to shake my hand for ANY reason thus you are wrong.

Yes, it is an insult. The fact that you don't feel insulted doesn't mean someone is not insulting you.

tuco wrote:Speak for yourself.

Make me.

There is not enough Picards to award for possibly the dumbest shit I've read here. And make you? Like this? No, thanks for the offer.

Rumraket · **#40** by **Rumraket** » May 27, 2016 5:25 pm

tuco wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
tuco wrote:I am thinking person and it is no insult to me not to shake my hand for ANY reason thus you are wrong.

Yes, it is an insult. The fact that you don't feel insulted doesn't mean someone is not insulting you.

tuco wrote:Speak for yourself.

Make me.

There is not enough Picards to award for possibly the dumbest shit I've read here. And make you? Like this? No, thanks for the offer.

Oh, cool. Best thread ever btw, especially the whole "I wrote the danish embassy" thing. :roll:

Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

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Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

Re: Switzerland: Muslim students must shake teacher's hand

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