"The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#261  Postby Seabass » Jan 14, 2021 5:05 pm

Well Mike, I'm glad Spearthrower was able to get through to you. There's still an elephant in the room though, and its name is RT. I understand wanting news sources that do not have a pro-West bias, but RT is definitely not the answer.

AP News, Reuters, AFP, DW News are some objective, non-biased news sources that I'd recommend. They're all Western based though. Perhaps some others might have non-West recommendations.

Do you think you would be able to let go of RT, or are you too attached to it? When I see people get attached to propaganda like RT, Fox News, Young Turks, etc., from the outside looking in, it almost looks like an addiction.

Over the last four years I've felt at times like I've become addicted to anti-Trump media. I've tried to unplug from it only to find that everyone else is also obsessed with Trump and that it is impossible to remain connected to other humans and not have someone bring him up eventually. I cannot wait for him to be out of office and out of my head... :?
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Re: Re:

#262  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 14, 2021 5:22 pm

Mike_L wrote:
Thanks also for the posting of the video: The Alt-right Playbook: How to Radicalize a Normie
(http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post2766098.html)


I recognized a guy I used to know in that video, albeit he wasn't a furry or particularly a nerd. Definitely a well explained vid, although I feel like it may have missed a few points - possibly because we've got the benefit of a couple more years of examples and hindsight.


Mike_L wrote:I've watched it all the way through and found it very worthwhile. I have definitely seen each of the following in multiple videos:

* the 'repetitive' and 'mantric' nature of the arguments (very true)
* the reliance on "affect" / delivery style over fact-based content (very true)
* "stressful, even while calming" (very true)... "every emotion is converted into anger" (very true)
* contradictory conspiracies (very true)

Not an exaggeration to call the Innuendo Studios vid a thoroughly refreshing watch. :nod:
I will set aside time for more of their videos.


For me, the highlighted above is the core component of the discourse that I've noticed - it's all about being angry; first demanding that people should be angry (although often couched as amused anger), then stoking that anger with imagery and words. It's also the first mode of response when trying to engage, I've found.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#263  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 14, 2021 6:00 pm

Seabass wrote:Well Mike, I'm glad Spearthrower was able to get through to you. There's still an elephant in the room though, and its name is RT. I understand wanting news sources that do not have a pro-West bias, but RT is definitely not the answer.

AP News, Reuters, AFP, DW News are some objective, non-biased news sources that I'd recommend. They're all Western based though. Perhaps some others might have non-West recommendations.

Do you think you would be able to let go of RT, or are you too attached to it? When I see people get attached to propaganda like RT, Fox News, Young Turks, etc., from the outside looking in, it almost looks like an addiction.

Over the last four years I've felt at times like I've become addicted to anti-Trump media. I've tried to unplug from it only to find that everyone else is also obsessed with Trump and that it is impossible to remain connected to other humans and not have someone bring him up eventually. I cannot wait for him to be out of office and out of my head... :?



I agree and would stress it's something we ALL need to be picky and self-aware about.

I think having a background in history really helps me out as I'm primed to look for bias in any rendition of an event, and I find that once you are aware of the operating biases, you can read past them so you still get to hear varied sources and different (and sometimes valid) ways of approaching detailing events, and the biases themselves are informative. I typically avoid opinion pieces though (the worst in papers which allow for paid contribution style stories) unless the person really is a credible authority on the topic matter.

However, there's still the kind of reporting bias that isn't about what they say, or how they spin, but rather what they choose to report or not report... that's why I find going to multiple sources really useful. Having lived in different countries, I tend to remain interested and try to keep up with events in those countries, so I will read some of the papers from those countries which I've found to be generally credible in the past, and this is really useful because in so doing, I find that they may report events that are at best a footnote in other national/international news organisations.

I would never go to RT, Fox, Young Turks, The Daily Mail (or other British rags), or Breitbart - to name some better known ones - because their spin is practically an art form where every word is curated for most visceral effect leaving little remaining untreated facts. I'm nearly immune to social media thanks to refusing outright to partake in any form of social media at all, including any type of YT 'news' shows, and the only time I ever see it is when it's posted on a forum like this, or someone for some reason emails it to me. I will very rarely view places like CNN or the Guardian because too much of the news is coloured by opinion, and even when I share that opinion, I don't need it reinforced.

As you mentioned, anti-Trump media is frustrating as it just creates the same thing Mike_L was talking about earlier: cycles of anger and frustration. I was quite happy when Stephen Colbert fired up The Late Show as he's a very smart guy and I do like witty takes (I miss Jon Stewart), but it quickly became all about Trump, stopped being funny, and I stopped watching it.

The sources I read weekly or more are: AP News, Reuters, BBC, Al Jazeera, India Times, Haaretz, Bangkok Post, Corriere della Sera, La Repubblica, Le Figaro, Washington Post & NY Times (when I can get free articles), The Hill, Politico, The Sunday Times, Forbes, The Economist, The WSJ, China Daily, and a few more national newspapers of countries I've lived in - as much to practice any language skills I may have retained as to get their news.

Many of these are biased in multiple ways, and some of them can generate a fairly large ratio of face-palms to words, but they all offer quite substantially different takes, coloured by obvious, transparent biases, while generally remaining credible and reliable, or at least expository of how a nation views the itself in the world (looking at you China Daily!).
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#264  Postby Mike_L » Jan 14, 2021 10:08 pm

Seabass wrote:Well Mike, I'm glad Spearthrower was able to get through to you. There's still an elephant in the room though, and its name is RT. I understand wanting news sources that do not have a pro-West bias, but RT is definitely not the answer.

AP News, Reuters, AFP, DW News are some objective, non-biased news sources that I'd recommend. They're all Western based though. Perhaps some others might have non-West recommendations.

Do you think you would be able to let go of RT, or are you too attached to it? When I see people get attached to propaganda like RT, Fox News, Young Turks, etc., from the outside looking in, it almost looks like an addiction.

Over the last four years I've felt at times like I've become addicted to anti-Trump media. I've tried to unplug from it only to find that everyone else is also obsessed with Trump and that it is impossible to remain connected to other humans and not have someone bring him up eventually. I cannot wait for him to be out of office and out of my head... :?

:thumbup:

I may as well detail how I arrived at RT.com...
It was through Information Clearing House (not to be confused with InfoWars). Its founder, Tom Feeley, is anti-war and a staunch critic of US military adventurism and the US-Israel 'special relationship'. In the early- to mid-2010s I sparred frequently with Weaver on Ratskep, and Information Clearing House was a convenient go-to source for collated anti-war opinion pieces.
Feeley attempts to be centrist, but he leans left. Information Clearing House occasionally carries an essay by a right-wing personality (e.g. Pat Buchanan), but only when that essay is anti-war or critical of US or Israeli actions in the Middle East. For the most part, the sources are left-leaning (e.g. Finian Cunningham, Chris Hedges, Glenn Greenwald, the late Rob Parry, etc.)
(Some would say that Information Clearing House is a home to so-called "Red-Brownism", if only because anti-war rhetoric can come from left or right).

At some stage, Chris Hedges and Finian Cunningham were contracted by RT.com. Cunningham has since moved over to Russia's Sputnik International while Hedges still produces RT.com's 'On Contact'.

And that's how I got to RT.com. Links to the site surged in 2015, with Russia's involvement in Syria.

Setting aside questions of quality and reliability, RT.com covers quite a wide political spectrum. Copying over what I wrote here...
Mike_L wrote:It's RT.com. They host writers with a diversity of views: left-leaning (George Galloway, Finian Cunningham, etc.), right-leaning (Mitchell Feierstein, Guy Birchall, etc.), centrist (Damian Wilson), transgender (Sophia Narwitz), etc. Anonymous pieces are probably written by Kremlin-linked writers.

But, notwithstanding my Ratskep 'persona' (see my avatar!), RT.com is not my sole source of news.
I get at least as much from South Africa's News24, which taps very 'orthodox' sources, such as Reuters and Agence_France-Presse (AFP).
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#265  Postby The_Metatron » Jan 14, 2021 11:49 pm

I caught my thirteen year old son falling down the internet news hole recently. Poor kid is trying to survive the wild internet, and is getting scared.

I sent him to NPR for all of his news. Anything he hears elsewhere? Scrub it against what NPR has to say about it.

What you guys were talking about a bit earlier about being made angry, I can confirm that was happening to me, too. It was the facebook algorithm that had me in a positive feedback loop of fucking anger. This wasn't even part of the bad guys' playbook, it was the way these platforms work. They just feed you more and more of whatever it is you read or watched. Even if it's actual news, the constant bombardment makes you see craziness everywhere.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#266  Postby felltoearth » Jan 15, 2021 1:15 am

Spearthrower wrote:
tuco wrote:
.. my point was that perhaps we should abandon sorting people by skin color...


I agree: a holdover from the past


tuco wrote:... because what is it good for?


Aside from some very limited medical history evaluation, perhaps sun-tan lotion advertizing? :)

Personally, I think it’s a terrible idea from a cultural standpoint. So a bunch of white people in the past decided skin colour was a thing and sorted people out. As a result, especially black people in 50s to now have culturally coalesced around blackness. Now when finally faced with what race means some white people say “I don’t see colour”* and decide they want that all to go away and again deny their cultural identity.

Not my decision TBH.

*a statement my wife has heard on more than one occasion.


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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#267  Postby Tortured_Genius » Jan 15, 2021 1:43 am

The_Metatron wrote:
What you guys were talking about a bit earlier about being made angry, I can confirm that was happening to me, too. It was the facebook algorithm that had me in a positive feedback loop of fucking anger. This wasn't even part of the bad guys' playbook, it was the way these platforms work. They just feed you more and more of whatever it is you read or watched. Even if it's actual news, the constant bombardment makes you see craziness everywhere.


I'm getting the same here - and intellectually I know that it's happening.

I'm constantly bombarded with news about how corrupt our own politicians are - not even repetition but genuine news stories about the little bits of graft and corruption that go towards making life shitty for everyone. In the background I knew it was happening before - but now, especially under lockdown, I'm getting slapped across the face with what utter cunt's are in charge on an almost constant basis.

I know what's happening. I know to take back a step and breathe...

And now I can see where MAGA supporting fascist conspiracy believing loons can come from.
None are so hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. - Goethe
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#268  Postby don't get me started » Jan 15, 2021 2:35 am

To back up what others have said here, yes it is easy for a person to fall down a rabbit hole on the internet and it takes a fair amount of effort to;

a) recognize fully what is going on while it is happening and
b) take concrete steps to extricate yourself.

I recently had a case where the YouTube algorithm nudged me in a direction I would rather not go. It started off with some critical reviews of some Hollywood movies, looking at shoehorning various social issues into the narrative. The criticisms were based on the artistic merit of the movies and found the social agenda to be clunky, unsophisticated and un-nuanced. Basically it was the writing that was bad, not the discussion of the issues themselves.

A little while later, following the algorithm, I found myself entering realm of white replacement theory and subtle hints that 'diversity' was a betrayal of white people and a misrepresentation of history. My antenna were twitching and I exited after a couple of videos and ignored all lookalike recommendations for a few weeks until the algorithm lost interest...

Even though I have political and social views that could be labelled as this or that, I avoid 'comfort watching' and stay away from reading and watching too much stuff that tells me things that I want to hear.

I have become adept at recognizing stuff that gets me riled up and when I find myself in such a state, I examine where it came from, why it is happening, and work to calm myself down and put a post it note to warn myself that this emotionalism is the road to nowhere.

Similar thing happens in other areas...I was playing a solitaire game on my phone. Got really into it and would spend loads of time on my commute just flipping the cards. Realized that it was gobbling up time that could be put to better use and just deleted the app off my phone. I was glad to find that I could exert the self control needed and I hope I can continue to do so.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#269  Postby Hermit » Jan 15, 2021 3:48 am

Spearthrower wrote:I would never go to RT, Fox, Young Turks, The Daily Mail (or other British rags), or Breitbart - to name some better known ones - because their spin is practically an art form where every word is curated for most visceral effect leaving little remaining untreated facts. I'm nearly immune to social media thanks to refusing outright to partake in any form of social media at all, including any type of YT 'news' shows, and the only time I ever see it is when it's posted on a forum like this, or someone for some reason emails it to me. I will very rarely view places like CNN or the Guardian because too much of the news is coloured by opinion, and even when I share that opinion, I don't need it reinforced.

Being keenly aware that I am not exempt from the pernicious effects of confirmation bias, I go to all of those sites (except for the the Young Turks. Their delivery simply rubs me up the wrong way.) you list, and more. My hobby is to get to the bottom of things. No matter whether the site is biased to the left, centre (Yes, centre is a bias too. Centrist does not mean 'balanced' or 'neutral'.) or right, I metaphorically cock my head and ask sceptically "Is that so?", or think "That doesn't look right." Sites that pay its contributors little or nothing (e.g. HuffPo and Buzzfeed) are particularly likely to publish crappy articles, but more staid sites like the Grauniad provide plenty of them as well. Then there are memes, many of which are total fakes, or so misleading that they are functionally brazen lies. Fabricated anti-Trump memes are particularly numerous.

Armed with my scepticism and awareness of my own weakness I don't think social media will ever succeed in dragging me down some rabbit hole. If anything, they keep me from falling into any of them because a lot of the time someone will post something that contradicts or corrects an assertion made earlier in the thread. Often enough a debate ensues that gives me plenty of leads to keep digging elsewhere. Google itself filters and manipulates information that is out there, but while I am aware of it I'd be totally lost without it. I found that by doing several searches on any one particular topic or issue, incrementally changing the search criteria each time, different sets of results can pop up. I love being terminally curious - and sceptical.
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Re:

#270  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2021 8:27 am

felltoearth wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
tuco wrote:
.. my point was that perhaps we should abandon sorting people by skin color...


I agree: a holdover from the past


tuco wrote:... because what is it good for?


Aside from some very limited medical history evaluation, perhaps sun-tan lotion advertizing? :)


Personally, I think it’s a terrible idea from a cultural standpoint. So a bunch of white people in the past decided skin colour was a thing and sorted people out. As a result, especially black people in 50s to now have culturally coalesced around blackness. Now when finally faced with what race means some white people say “I don’t see colour”* and decide they want that all to go away and again deny their cultural identity.

Not my decision TBH.

*a statement my wife has heard on more than one occasion.


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Ok, but I am not telling other people what to do or not do. And, let's be fair, it wasn't me saying X in the past and changing my mind now, I am not responsible for positions white people took for hundreds of years.

I do see skin colour - it's the most obvious visible trait of a human, detectable from further away than many other features; I just don't think it defines us anymore than eye colour.

Ironically, I've been called names and had it inferred that I'm a racist for that by members of supposedly progressive circles. I don't think that's progressive. I think it's an extremist perspective couched as if it should be accepted without question, in fact, that you are not entitled to question it. Anything I am told I am not allowed to question makes me highly skeptical.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#271  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2021 8:39 am

Hermit wrote:I love being terminally curious - and sceptical.



It's vital, but there's also only so much time in the day which is why I remove sites I know to be overwhelmingly misleading.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#272  Postby Hermit » Jan 15, 2021 9:06 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Hermit wrote:I love being terminally curious - and sceptical.

It's vital, but there's also only so much time in the day which is why I remove sites I know to be overwhelmingly misleading.

Understood. Through personal choice and material circumstance I just have a lot more time than you to trawl the vast internet. I also gain what I regard as deeper understanding from even the weirdest sites.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#273  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2021 9:31 am

Hermit wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Hermit wrote:I love being terminally curious - and sceptical.

It's vital, but there's also only so much time in the day which is why I remove sites I know to be overwhelmingly misleading.

Understood. Through personal choice and material circumstance I just have a lot more time than you to trawl the vast internet. I also gain what I regard as useful material from even the weirdest sites.



It's true - as with reading historical sources, even the biases provide a lot of context and information.

I've had this discussion with both sides of the binary political spectrum: it's not 'Mainstream Media' that's the problem, it's how well we're preparing kids - who go on to be underprepared adults - to analyze what they read, to spot biases, to check facts, to see logical fallacies, to verify the credibility of their sources. If you think about Creationism, there are a lot of similarities there; Creationists tend to be scandalously undereducated and will trust texts solely along in-group lines without any degree of skeptical scrutiny.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#274  Postby Mike_L » Jan 15, 2021 10:16 am

I have been addressed as "mlungu" (pronounced "m-loongoo") a couple of times here in SA.
It was long understood that the word was a pejorative, meaning "white scum" or "white froth off the sea" (a reference to the fact that European settlers arrived in ships).
However...

...concluding that it is not a derogatory word.
In my case, it was used neutrally toward me in the one instance, and insultingly/angrily in the other. So I'm still not quite sure... :lol:
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#275  Postby Hermit » Jan 15, 2021 11:05 am

Mike_L wrote:I have been addressed as "mlungu" (pronounced "m-loongoo") a couple of times here in SA.
It was long understood that the word was a pejorative, meaning "white scum" or "white froth off the sea" (a reference to the fact that European settlers arrived in ships).
However...

...concluding that it is not a derogatory word.
In my case, it was used neutrally toward me in the one instance, and insultingly/angrily in the other. So I'm still not quite sure... :lol:

Not quite sure of what?

Not being a mind reader, I don't know where you are going with this, so I'll merely suggest that being addressed as mlungu is not evidence that homo sapiens sapiens can be divided into objectively existing separate human races.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#276  Postby Mike_L » Jan 15, 2021 11:41 am

Hermit wrote:
Mike_L wrote:I have been addressed as "mlungu" (pronounced "m-loongoo") a couple of times here in SA.
It was long understood that the word was a pejorative, meaning "white scum" or "white froth off the sea" (a reference to the fact that European settlers arrived in ships).
However...

...concluding that it is not a derogatory word.
In my case, it was used neutrally toward me in the one instance, and insultingly/angrily in the other. So I'm still not quite sure... :lol:

Not quite sure of what?

Whether or not I was being insulted.

Not being a mind reader, I don't know where you are going with this, so I'll merely suggest that being addressed as mlungu is not evidence that homo sapiens sapiens can be divided into objectively existing separate human races.

Not what I was going for.
It was just a "me too" anecdote following on from Spearthrower's post...
Spearthrower wrote:...
Ironically, I've been called names and had it inferred that I'm a racist for that by members of supposedly progressive circles.
...

(Sure, I should've quoted that first).
But no, I'm not trying to resurrect the "separate human races" theme.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#277  Postby Hermit » Jan 15, 2021 12:05 pm

Much relieved.

It happens rarely, but when someone says to me "You're a genius" I am never quite sure whether or not I was being insulted.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#278  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2021 1:20 pm

Mike_L wrote:I have been addressed as "mlungu" (pronounced "m-loongoo") a couple of times here in SA.
It was long understood that the word was a pejorative, meaning "white scum" or "white froth off the sea" (a reference to the fact that European settlers arrived in ships).
However...

...concluding that it is not a derogatory word.
In my case, it was used neutrally toward me in the one instance, and insultingly/angrily in the other. So I'm still not quite sure... :lol:



Thais use the word 'farang' to mean Europeans, and they really, really do not mean it in a derogatory sense, but it remains as such because of the way it is used: that's because you're a farang, farangs do X, what do farang think about Y?

I think it originates with the first established contact with Europeans who were French. Thai words are all consonant vowel consonant, so the 'fr' of French is nearly impossible for them to say without language training; it becomes 'fa ra'
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#279  Postby don't get me started » Jan 15, 2021 2:08 pm

As is probably well known the Japanese word for foreigner is 'Giajin' comprising the kanji for 'out' (外)and the Kanji for 'person' (人)。(外人) It can be pejorative and I've certainly had it said to me in a pejorative manner. But it can also be neutral.
The more polite version is Gaikokujin 外国人= 'Out country Person', often with the honorific 'san' or even the more respectful 'sama'. As in
'Would the honorable out country person be needing a knife and fork?'

The thing that makes me laugh is when it is used as an ejaculation (fnar fnar). It has happened more than a few times when some random person in a restaurant or bar looks up from their phone or whatever and spots me and just exclaims 'Ah! Gaijin da!' "Oh look, its a foreigner." The best one was one night when I was out running...just as I ran past a bar some 'refreshed' salarymen were stumbling out. One of them could not help himself and blurted out 'Ah hashiteriru Gaijin da'. "Oh look, it's a running foreigner!" Running and laughing out loud at the same time is an interesting cardio-vascular exercise!

Picking up on Spearthrower's point, it is the same here. Even though it is not meant to be derogatory, the subtext of 'Oh, you Gaijins have trouble understanding Japanese ways, right?' is woven into the implicature of some people's discourse, as if all foreigners are a lumpen mass and there are only two poles in understanding how to view the world, the Japanese one and the non-Japanese one and I am a representative for the entire non-Japanese world.
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Re: "The always-excellent Tucker Carlson"

#280  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 15, 2021 2:11 pm

'Would the honorable out country person be needing a knife and fork?'


So Japanese! :lol:

In Thailand it's worse: the waiter/waitress will turn to an Asian looking person at the table and say "What does the farang want to order?" - I naturally reply in Thai: the farang wants to order by himself.

And the rest of your post could be transposed exactly to my experiences in Thailand.
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