purplerat wrote:

chango369 wrote:

purplerat wrote:

chango369 wrote:My opinion is that suicide is more improbable than a inadvertent fatal injury suffered as a result of police brutality, followed by a cover up, i.e negligent homicide. The injury could've have been sustained right at the moment when the LEO was careful to take her out range of the dash cam (e.g a subdural hematoma when he slammed her head into the ground as exclaimed by Ms. Bland).

Briton is correct in voicing that more data is needed.

The problem with that theory is that it appears she was alive sometime after the arrest. She would have been in custody of the jail and the guards not the police officer responsible for her death. Why would the guards who had nothing to do with her injuries cover up what would otherwise appear to them to be an unexplained death? It would have to be a massive conspiracy which IMO is far less likely than what is a leading cause of death to begin with.

Obviously more information is need, but all else being equal people kill themselves more often than the police do.

Your citing of her being alive sometime after the arrest doesn't take into account that a fatal condition may have arisen some time later. That would depend on the acuteness any such hypothetical brain injury.

Of course, if there were a fatal brain injury of some kind, I can't see that it'd be difficult to find that out in an autopsy.

What'd I be interested in knowing, is whether the jail is managed by the same department. Often jails are, and then I can see a motivation for a cover up.

Moreover, the supposed plastic trash bag is highly suspicious to me, especially for such a relatively freshly booked inmate. I've never heard of a jail cell with a trash basket, nor a trash bag. They generally strip you naked, issue you clothes, perhaps some paperwork, a few hygiene items, some linen and maybe a netted bag to contain it all. I've been there, done that MANY times because of cannabis arrests. So while anecdotal, I've got a damn good boots on the ground perspective of the booking process. The plastic bag story is BS, as far as I'm concerned.

So what you are saying that a massive police/corrections conspiracy so poorly executed it is almost certain to be found out is not just more likely than a family missing the signs of somebody who may attempt suicide, but so much more likely that the later is not even plausible while the former is a near certainty?

Based on what again?

Steve wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:

mcgruff wrote:Suicide just doesn't make any sense for someone who would have expected to be out on bail in a matter of days.

Because it makes sense all those other times, doesn't it...

Ever known someone who committed suicide? I do. A close friend who had run out of money. She was really happy to the end, gave no clue. But when her brother came to examine her affairs it was clear - she had flat run out of cash and all her credit cards were maxed and she was late on payments. Looking back I can't see how I could have known, except she had been cleaning out her house giving stuff away for the last 6 months. I think she knew exactly what she was doing and was fine with it. Which is pretty sad.

Which is not the case here. Sandra had a new job, was excited about it, hell she even left a voicemail after she was stuck with a $5000 bond. This is not a message from someone ready to let it all go.

chango369 wrote:

purplerat wrote:

chango369 wrote:

purplerat wrote:
The problem with that theory is that it appears she was alive sometime after the arrest. She would have been in custody of the jail and the guards not the police officer responsible for her death. Why would the guards who had nothing to do with her injuries cover up what would otherwise appear to them to be an unexplained death? It would have to be a massive conspiracy which IMO is far less likely than what is a leading cause of death to begin with.

Obviously more information is need, but all else being equal people kill themselves more often than the police do.

Your citing of her being alive sometime after the arrest doesn't take into account that a fatal condition may have arisen some time later. That would depend on the acuteness any such hypothetical brain injury.

Of course, if there were a fatal brain injury of some kind, I can't see that it'd be difficult to find that out in an autopsy.

What'd I be interested in knowing, is whether the jail is managed by the same department. Often jails are, and then I can see a motivation for a cover up.

Moreover, the supposed plastic trash bag is highly suspicious to me, especially for such a relatively freshly booked inmate. I've never heard of a jail cell with a trash basket, nor a trash bag. They generally strip you naked, issue you clothes, perhaps some paperwork, a few hygiene items, some linen and maybe a netted bag to contain it all. I've been there, done that MANY times because of cannabis arrests. So while anecdotal, I've got a damn good boots on the ground perspective of the booking process. The plastic bag story is BS, as far as I'm concerned.

So what you are saying that a massive police/corrections conspiracy so poorly executed it is almost certain to be found out is not just more likely than a family missing the signs of somebody who may attempt suicide, but so much more likely that the later is not even plausible while the former is a near certainty?

Based on what again?

We are speculating on only two possible events, perhaps in itself a false dichotomy. I'm not putting as much a probability spread between them as I inferred from your post. I wouldn't agree with using terms like "not even plausible" nor "near certainty", until more data comes in.

All I'm saying is that the DA's decision (according to CNN) to pursue an investigation as if there were a homicide, is prudent, proper and warranted. I can only surmise that this whole thing reeks to the DA's office in a similar way as it does to me.

There's no harm in disagreeing here. It all rests on whatever evidence emerges out of the homicide investigation and grand jury proceedings, wouldn't you agree?

purplerat wrote:[
I'm sorry, but how the fuck can you claim outright "Which is not the case here"? You knew one suicide victim and that now makes you an such an expert on people who take their own lives that you can make such a claim knowing only a handful of pieces of information about her life?

Aside the from absurdity of making such a claim it's also somewhat demeaning to the whole issue of suicide to make it out to be such a simplified, one size fits all issue where you can know one or two things about a person and make that the basis for saying whether they might take their own life or not.

Steve wrote:

purplerat wrote:[
I'm sorry, but how the fuck can you claim outright "Which is not the case here"? You knew one suicide victim and that now makes you an such an expert on people who take their own lives that you can make such a claim knowing only a handful of pieces of information about her life?

Aside the from absurdity of making such a claim it's also somewhat demeaning to the whole issue of suicide to make it out to be such a simplified, one size fits all issue where you can know one or two things about a person and make that the basis for saying whether they might take their own life or not.

I say she doesn't sound suicidal. And you just swear at me.

purplerat wrote:
I apologize I actually conflated your comments with the previous which basically says suicide was not a possibility and outright murder was the most likely scenario.
I'm not making any claim as to what I think happened. There just isn't enough known. I'm just pointing out some of the many irrational claims being made here which are obviously based on the predetermined conclusion that the police must have killed her.

purplerat wrote:Ya, because you're basically stereotyping "what a suicidal person sounds like".

Strontium Dog wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:Shame at being arrested for assaulting a police officer?

That'd be odd when she didn't assault a police officer and was clearly the target of unfair arrest.

I'm sure you think you're being witty. However, whether she did it or not, she was arrested for assaulting a police oficer.

Strontium Dog wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:Shame at being arrested for assaulting a police officer?

That'd be odd when she didn't assault a police officer and was clearly the target of unfair arrest.

I'm sure you think you're being witty. However, whether she did it or not, she was arrested for assaulting a police oficer.

NPR wrote:
Earlier this week in a San Francisco courthouse, a deputy public defender named Jami Tillotson challenged police who were trying to take pictures of her client, and the police handcuffed her and took her away. The public defender's office angrily accused the officer of intimidation, but what caught our attention was the reason for her arrest.

A video of the incident shows the plainclothes policeman telling her, "If you continue with this, I will arrest you for resisting arrest."

She was detained, and San Francisco police say they're now investigating her for a possible charge under a state law that includes resisting arrest, as well as obstructing justice.

The case raises the question: How can you be arrested for resisting arrest? Isn't that like being fired for refusing to be fired?

David L. Carter, a criminology professor and former police officer, says in most cases, it's an aggravating offense. But when resisting arrest is the only charge, as it is in the San Francisco case, Carter is puzzled.

"I question the legitimacy of that," Carter says. "You've got to have the arrest to have the resisting arrest!"

In New York, criminal defense lawyer and former prosecutor Nathaniel Burney believes the plainclothes policeman misspoke. "I think what he meant was 'obstruction of justice,' " he says. "Society has an interest in the police doing their job and catching criminals ... and you're not allowed to stop them from doing their jobs."

But critics of the police say both of these charges — obstruction of justice and resisting arrest — can be abused by police to justify groundless arrests. Burney says these charges sometimes are invoked by police who are trying to maintain their status as, as he puts it, "Boss Dog."

"There is this — it's not necessarily an evil mentality — but it is a mentality that, 'I am in charge, and you shall not contradict me, you're going to do what I say, at all costs,' " he says. "And if you don't do what they say, well now all of a sudden you're a bad person and they've got to arrest you for that."

purplerat wrote:

Steve wrote:

Strontium Dog wrote:

mcgruff wrote:Suicide just doesn't make any sense for someone who would have expected to be out on bail in a matter of days.

Because it makes sense all those other times, doesn't it...

Ever known someone who committed suicide? I do. A close friend who had run out of money. She was really happy to the end, gave no clue. But when her brother came to examine her affairs it was clear - she had flat run out of cash and all her credit cards were maxed and she was late on payments. Looking back I can't see how I could have known, except she had been cleaning out her house giving stuff away for the last 6 months. I think she knew exactly what she was doing and was fine with it. Which is pretty sad.

Which is not the case here. Sandra had a new job, was excited about it, hell she even left a voicemail after she was stuck with a $5000 bond. This is not a message from someone ready to let it all go.

I'm sorry, but how the fuck can you claim outright "Which is not the case here"? You knew one suicide victim and that now makes you an such an expert on people who take their own lives that you can make such a claim knowing only a handful of pieces of information about her life?

Aside the from absurdity of making such a claim it's also somewhat demeaning to the whole issue of suicide to make it out to be such a simplified, one size fits all issue where you can know one or two things about a person and make that the basis for saying whether they might take their own life or not.

Willie71 wrote:I AM an expert on suicide, and that did not sound like a pre suicidal conversation. Disclaimer: one has to do a full assessment to be clear in risk, but I see no indications of risk from the reports I have read.

My speculation is she might have had a brain bleed from the assault by the officer. She might have been denied her meds, and had a seizure. She was traumatized after the call and committed suicide.

We need more info. I don't believe suicide for a second, moving to a new state, starting a new job, not the typical suicidal profile.

Shrunk wrote:

Willie71 wrote:I AM an expert on suicide, and that did not sound like a pre suicidal conversation. Disclaimer: one has to do a full assessment to be clear in risk, but I see no indications of risk from the reports I have read.

My speculation is she might have had a brain bleed from the assault by the officer. She might have been denied her meds, and had a seizure. She was traumatized after the call and committed suicide.

We need more info. I don't believe suicide for a second, moving to a new state, starting a new job, not the typical suicidal profile.

The suicides that have happened in my practice (fortunately few) have usually been people who showed "no indications of risk." For obvious reasons: If they showed indications of risk, I would have taken the appropriate actions to prevent it.

willhud9 wrote:And the fact that suicides are not always premeditated and can come from out of nowhere. As someone who has battled suicidal thoughts, suicide never came as an idea built over time. It was a reaction to a bunch of intense psychological issues all at one time. In my case, coming home from school being bullied to immediately being picked on and excluded by kids in my apartment complex to having a mentally ill mother and a workaholic father led me to feel battered and worn out and I wanted it to end.

Oftentimes these thoughts came out of the blue. My life could be superb and incredibly fine. I could be the happiest kid in the world. Then a single bad day and I come home and I would start imagining jumping out the apartment window, or stabbing myself with a knife.

Granted I was 7-8 but my point is suicidal thoughts do not have to exist in a bubble of depression or crisis. They can occur in one intense period of psychological frustration and without any proper coping mechanism a person wants to end the frustration in a manner they see fit.

From all reports Sandra Bland had no other injuries aside from Asphyxiation. Now is it homicidal asphyxiation? Did a guard kill her with the plastic bag? Or is it suicidal asphyxiation? This is a tricky question to answer because we don't have strong evidence for either. We have speculative evidence and we have hearsay evidence from a could be homicidal department which of course would deny its guilt.

But is suicide far-fetched? Not really.

willhud9 wrote:And the fact that suicides are not always premeditated and can come from out of nowhere. As someone who has battled suicidal thoughts, suicide never came as an idea built over time. It was a reaction to a bunch of intense psychological issues all at one time. In my case, coming home from school being bullied to immediately being picked on and excluded by kids in my apartment complex to having a mentally ill mother and a workaholic father led me to feel battered and worn out and I wanted it to end.

Oftentimes these thoughts came out of the blue. My life could be superb and incredibly fine. I could be the happiest kid in the world. Then a single bad day and I come home and I would start imagining jumping out the apartment window, or stabbing myself with a knife.

Granted I was 7-8 but my point is suicidal thoughts do not have to exist in a bubble of depression or crisis. They can occur in one intense period of psychological frustration and without any proper coping mechanism a person wants to end the frustration in a manner they see fit.

From all reports Sandra Bland had no other injuries aside from Asphyxiation. Now is it homicidal asphyxiation? Did a guard kill her with the plastic bag? Or is it suicidal asphyxiation? This is a tricky question to answer because we don't have strong evidence for either. We have speculative evidence and we have hearsay evidence from a could be homicidal department which of course would deny its guilt.

But is suicide far-fetched? Not really.

Shrunk wrote:The suicides that have happened in my practice (fortunately few) have usually been people who showed "no indications of risk." For obvious reasons: If they showed indications of risk, I would have taken the appropriate actions to prevent it.

mcgruff wrote:

Shrunk wrote:The suicides that have happened in my practice (fortunately few) have usually been people who showed "no indications of risk." For obvious reasons: If they showed indications of risk, I would have taken the appropriate actions to prevent it.

But what about this specific case? Can we say nothing at all?

It could be argued that the suicide was completely unconnected to her imprisonment. I mention that only because technically it is an option.

Alternatively confinement did drive her to suicide - and in a very short space of time. There has to be a process of some kind to take her from A to B and it has to be something which would not display itself in the phone call. What could that be? How often do people kill themselves after only a few days in jail when they know they will be getting out in just a few more?

mcgruff wrote:

Shrunk wrote:The suicides that have happened in my practice (fortunately few) have usually been people who showed "no indications of risk." For obvious reasons: If they showed indications of risk, I would have taken the appropriate actions to prevent it.

But what about this specific case? Can we say nothing at all?

It could be argued that the suicide was completely unconnected to her imprisonment. I mention that only because technically it is an option.

Alternatively confinement did drive her to suicide - and in a very short space of time. There has to be a process of some kind to take her from A to B and it has to be something which would not display itself in the phone call. What could that be? How often do people kill themselves after only a few days in jail when they know they will be getting out in just a few more?

Suicide continued to be the leading cause of death in local jails (40 suicides per 100,000 jail inmates); however, the suicide rate declined 4% in 2012 and has declined 17% since 2000.

Blood wrote:I think she committed suicide, only because the alternative scenario is too implausible. Texas in 2015 is not Mississippi in 1930. Sheriffs no longer just murder inmates on a whim and throw their bodies into a river. A few still might if they thought they could get away with it, but there is no way they can. There is too much video and too much documentation now. Texas also has a fully integrated police force. It's not like the old days where all the cops were white.

It was the arresting officer that wanted to "teach her a lesson," not the sheriff or guards. The most shocking thing about the whole incident is that she wasn't shot or fatally wounded by the cop at the scene.

Her autopsy was done in Houston, not backwater Waller County, by the coroner before the controversy broke. He knew nothing about the circumstances of her arrest, and concluded that the injuries were consistent with suicide. To believe that some backwater sheriff murdered her and then somehow got the Houston coroner to cover up his crime is conspiracy lunacy to the nth degree.