Woman fatally shot while driving in Milwaukee by child

crank · **#61** by **crank** » May 01, 2016 9:01 pm

laklak wrote:
Teague wrote:
No, because you live in a culture where toddlers die at July 4th celebrations from people shooting their guns in the air. You're so lackadaisical about guns there that this is exactly the kind of thing you're going to see.

When you can't even be fucked do do anything after you have more than one mass shooting a day over there and time and time again, toddlers shooting others then how are you surprised by this? Sounds like a weird case of special pleading on your part.

No special pleading. There are people like me, who are extremely careful with firearms, and others who aren't. We' been round this 1000 times here. There are plenty of people who shouldn't have access to a nylon spatula, let alone a firearm. Unfortunately, it's not possible in our current political situation to distinguish between the two. Other than banning guns (not gonna happen) and confiscating those already out there (not gonna happen) there isn't much to be done. One step would be extremely harsh penalties for stupidity of this mind-boggling magnitude. Dude left his service weapon in the car where a kid got it - 25 years. The other guy who left his gun in his book bag - 25 years. Shooting a gun into the air - 25 years. Use of a gun in the commission of a crime - life without parole. I'd do the same thing with drunk driving, texting while driving, and any number of other completely indefensible, selfish, moronic activities. If you cannot be trusted out in the world at large you'll have to live in prison, where the rest of us sane and responsible people don't have to deal with you.

There's no such thing as a "gun accident", it is always, every single time, because somebody made a brain-dead mistake and somebody else ended up hurt or dead. Jack the penalties up to a point where even the stupidest of the stupid will have to take notice, maybe it will at least cut down on these incidents.

I mostly agree with this, but it just goes way to far in the penalties for stupidities. If you added, 'up to' or 'maximum', something like that, I'd be OK with it. There are people who are just typically careless, do ridiculously risky shit, but that needs differentiating from something like momentary lapses of some kind, and everyone has momentary lapses. It's not human to not make mistakes occasionally. To get 25 years, or life, for some totally atypical behavior because something distracted you in some way isn't right. People trip and kill someone, tripping isn't an accident? You can't be expected to be aware of every possibility in every situation you're put in. I could spend all day spinning scenarios ending in true accidents, where everyone was doing their best to avoid one yet there was one. A boot gets caught by unseen root, a rope fails, a gun fails, a bird shits in your eye at the wrong moment. There are too many ways nature can be pernicious for someone getting 25 years for not foreseeing everything.

Griz_ · **#62** by **Griz_** » May 01, 2016 9:10 pm

In this case we have a person who is employed as armed security who, at the end of his shift tosses his duty belt and loaded handgun on the floor of his car and leaves it there. This is not an accident, it's a very clear case of serious negligence that resulted in a death. But as I said earlier, he may not have broken any laws. This may be perfectly acceptable behaviour where he lives. Due to my culture I may have a blind spot but people here don't generally leave their handguns just lying around. Perhaps because people who own them have to complete training and the penalties for unsafe storage (for example) are rather harsh.

laklak · **#63** by **laklak** » May 01, 2016 10:42 pm

OK, I'll add "up too". But this guy should get the maximum, as should the moron with the book bag. Yeah, "accidents" happen, and by "accident" I mean a lapse in attention that ends you in the shit. You're distracted and you rear end someone at a traffic light - OK, pay for the damage and get a ticket. But this is a different thing. There were at least 3 times when it could have been prevented - when he first decided to leave his gun in the car, when he allowed his girlfriend to borrow the car, and when she stuck the kid in the front seat despite a gun belt and holster lying in the floor. Can't do anything to her, she's paid the maximum price for her stupidity, but he hasn't, and he's the one ultimately at fault. If your inattention or distraction or stupidity causes the death of an innocent person you should, IMO, at least be charged with involuntary manslaughter. If it's egregious, like leaving a loaded gun out in plain sight, or being drunk behind the wheel, or texting while you're driving, the charges should be far more severe.

We could free up one fuck of a lot of prison space if we stopped jailing pot smokers.

crank · **#64** by **crank** » May 01, 2016 10:56 pm

Just to play lucifer's advocate, do we know for sure she asked for and got permission after he got out of vehicle? One possible scenario, not particularly likely, but what if when he got home, a bunch of kids were playing outside, and rather than take his gun inside letting them see him carrying a weapon inside, he left it under the seat and locked the car door. She has prior permission to use the car whenever she needs to, when he went inside, he went straight to the bathroom to take a leak, and she leaves while he's doing so, he never has a chance to stop her. She has keys already, and had no reason to think a gun was inside, he doesn't do that. While contrived, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities. And, if you look at some of the accident reports of airline crashes, it's often flukish combinations of events that lead to them.

Most likely, he fucked up, bad, but there are other possibilities.

Columbus · **#65** by **Columbus** » May 01, 2016 11:44 pm

Just to play lucifer's advocate, do we know for sure she asked for and got permission after he got out of vehicle?

You beat me to the punch.
The assertion was made:

he allowed his girlfriend to borrow the car,

but if that was established in the reports I missed it. It is quite possible I did miss it.

If not, it is also possible that a security guard left his gun in his locked vehicle when he got to his girlfriend's place to keep it away from the kids. Which would put a whole different spin on the tragedy. The mother may not even have known it was there when she drove off with the kids.
I'm not saying that happened. I'm saying that I don't know what really happened.
Tom

Griz_ · **#66** by **Griz_** » May 02, 2016 12:23 am

Leaving a loaded firearm in a vehicle in plain sight (in a holster on a belt on the floor on the passenger side according to the article) even if the vehicle is locked is a really dumb thing to do. Sounds more like this was just the normal routine for this guy. Keeping it away from the kids doesn't make much sense; just strap on the holster where is is safe, (and where it should have been in the first place) enter the house and store it properly. Leaving it loaded in the car is just plain stupid. I'm having a difficult time finding a situation where this guy was not guilty of negligent storage of his firearm.

However I've done some research and I can't find anything on safe storage laws in Wisconsin, perhaps there are none, it wouldn't surprise me and in that case he's not guilty of anything other than stupidity.

crank · **#67** by **crank** » May 02, 2016 12:38 am

Why is a locked car not as safe as a lockbox in the house? A lockbox can be jimmied in private, a car you would be easily seen trying to break in, these would be quite relevant if we're talking about keeping safe from kids. I just picked kids playing as a reason to not bring the gun in the house. I'm sure there could be other reasons. Maybe unbeknownst to the girlfriend, he had to go right back on duty quite soon, whatever. All I'm saying is there could be reasonable explanations, though most likely you're right, and a locked car is perfectly safe at least for a brief period.

Griz_ · **#68** by **Griz_** » May 02, 2016 12:57 am

crank wrote:Why is a locked car not as safe as a lockbox in the house?

Seriously?

I'm not buying the rest of it either. Perhaps this is a good demonstration of how lax firearm safety is in the US. The fact that we see these tragic situations so often is proof of that. If a nation has decided that they are going to treat firearms no differently than a pocket knife it shouldn't be shocked that these things are going to happen pretty much on a daily basis.

The second amendment is a fact but rights are not devoid of responsibility.

Thommo · **#69** by **Thommo** » May 02, 2016 1:37 am

I'm going out on a limb and saying that children have access to the interior of a car more often than to the interior of a lockbox. Whether that be parents placing their child in a car (which tends not to happen with lockboxes) or because the keys are left conveniently on a hook in the hall (which tends not to happen with lockboxes).

I'd hazard a guess that cars are broken into and/or stolen more frequently too.

Honestly I'd question the judgement of someone who consistently tossed their mobile phone on their car seat and left it there in plain view through the window of the car, and a mobile phone isn't a lethal weapon that needs to be treated with appropriate respect.

Onyx8 · **#70** by **Onyx8** » May 02, 2016 2:04 am

You ever seen a lockbox with windows?

crank · **#71** by **crank** » May 02, 2016 2:36 am

Seriously? None of these objections make any sense in the suggested scenario. Some people are very careful with their keys, and, no, a kid is more likely to get into a lockbox than a car if he is without keys since we're talking about a limited time frame, and neither for kids that age. All this BS about leaving the keys, and what's more frequently broken into is irrelevant to the posited scenario and many similar. Was their place a house with a personal driveway, or an apartment with parking a huge area well away from the door? I was thinking house, but that's what I'm used to, we don't have enough details to assume anything really. This isn't about trying to make a court case, just some of the possibilities that make instant condemnation of the guy unwarranted.

crank · **#72** by **crank** » May 02, 2016 2:41 am

How many 5 year olds can break into a car in minutes? Don't forget the keys are mom's purse and a guy taking a leak's pants.

Thommo · **#73** by **Thommo** » May 02, 2016 2:51 am

Number of mom's shot by toddlers because of guns left locked in cars in recent months = 2 (more maybe?)
Number of mom's shot by toddlers because of guns left locked in lockboxes in recent months = 0

The statistics don't speak well for this theory that it's questionable whether lockboxes are safer. Obviously the stuff about cars being broken into is that stolen guns also hurt people, not to mention that responsible gun owners (or phone owners for that matter) probably don't want their stuff stolen. Sorry, I thought that was clear.

In the "suggested scenario", it's quite obvious that had the gun been safely locked in secure storage instead of lying around in the car, there'd be one more family in the world.

You can rationalise all you like about how hard it is to break into cars, but we all know perfectly well this isn't true and car crime is enormously common, the statistics can be provided on that if required, but it hardly seems controversial enough to bother.

Thommo · **#74** by **Thommo** » May 02, 2016 3:00 am

This article and the pages it links to provides lots of information about this all too common phenomenon. The data isn't compiled, but links are provided, so it's quite possible to go through and assess how commonly small children are able to get hold of guns that are secured in lockboxes, relative to how common this issue is (and that's putting aside other obviously negative aspects of leaving valuable property visible through the window of your car).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... this-year/
http://everytownresearch.org/notanaccident/
http://everytownresearch.org/reports/innocents_lost/

Onyx8 · **#75** by **Onyx8** » May 02, 2016 3:01 am

crank wrote:Seriously? None of these objections make any sense in the suggested scenario. Some people are very careful with their keys, and, no, a kid is more likely to get into a lockbox than a car if he is without keys since we're talking about a limited time frame, and neither for kids that age. All this BS about leaving the keys, and what's more frequently broken into is irrelevant to the posited scenario and many similar. Was their place a house with a personal driveway, or an apartment with parking a huge area well away from the door? I was thinking house, but that's what I'm used to, we don't have enough details to assume anything really. This isn't about trying to make a court case, just some of the possibilities that make instant condemnation of the guy unwarranted.

What? You ever tried to break into a safe?

Griz_ · **#76** by **Griz_** » May 02, 2016 3:09 am

I completely agree with the above. Anyone could have broken into that car and stolen that firearm. Breaking a window and grabbing a visible item happens frequently. Gaining entry to a home and locating a firearm is much more difficult and even then it should be unloaded and stored in a lockbox or have a trigger lock if you are not at home. This is pretty basic stuff.

crank · **#77** by **crank** » May 02, 2016 3:27 am

Thommo wrote:Number of mom's shot by toddlers because of guns left locked in cars in recent months = 2 (more maybe?)
Number of mom's shot by toddlers because of guns left locked in lockboxes in recent months = 0

The statistics don't speak well for this theory that it's questionable whether lockboxes are safer. Obviously the stuff about cars being broken into is that stolen guns also hurt people, not to mention that responsible gun owners (or phone owners for that matter) probably don't want their stuff stolen. Sorry, I thought that was clear.

In the "suggested scenario", it's quite obvious that had the gun been safely locked in secure storage instead of lying around in the car, there'd be one more family in the world.

You can rationalise all you like about how hard it is to break into cars, but we all know perfectly well this isn't true and car crime is enormously common, the statistics can be provided on that if required, but it hardly seems controversial enough to bother.

Number of words related to my post: 0

It's clear you have no idea what I am saying and aren't even trying. I haven't rationalized a thing, you rationalize that your bleating is relevant. Try understanding what I posited before disparaging it with utterly irrelevant nonsense.

Thommo · **#78** by **Thommo** » May 02, 2016 3:31 am

Yeah sure, writing about why it's not questionable whether lockboxes are safer gun storage than cars isn't relevant to literally asking whether a "locked car [is] not as safe as a lockbox in the house".

I have indeed "tried" understanding that. But apparently it doesn't mean remotely what it says! :lol:

crank · **#79** by **crank** » May 02, 2016 3:32 am

So you all have reading comprehension difficulties? I was positing a one-off, might have, could have, unlikely though it be, have been. Quote stats all you want, you're not saying anything relevant to what I've been saying. If you insist on arguing about something I didn't say, fine, go play your mutual mastabatory games all you want, I'm done.

crank · **#80** by **crank** » May 02, 2016 3:32 am

So you all have reading comprehension difficulties? I was positing a one-off, might have, could have, unlikely though it be, have been. Quote stats all you want, you're not saying anything relevant to what I've been saying. If you insist on arguing about something I didn't say, fine, go play your mutual mastabatory games all you want, I'm done.

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