This thread is not really meant to be so much a debate thread but more of a way for me to gauge the mind a godless heretic, and hopefully I will learn something new. In my experience, despite their misguided lack of faith, I find that atheists as a whole tend to be very smart people, but sometimes engage in too much thinking for their own good and end up missing the critical components of attaining critical knowledge that leads to truth. So at the very least, I want to LEARN from the general train of thought of an atheist/nonbeliever to try and understand your views, however much I disagree with them.

So the point of this thread is this. I do not have time to read endless, sacriligeous, snobby, offensive dribble. I just want a sort of thesis, or "main point" from you disbelievers. Keep it very simple and short for me. What I want to know is, what is your general view of religion? Keep it at a few paragraphs at most please. I get dizzy reading walls of text!

So if you had say... 3 to 5 minutes to explain to me your views on religion and what its role is in the world, what would you say to me? Do you think there is a conflict between science and religion or do they complement one another? Do you think, even if you do not like religion, that religion sometimes has some redeeming qualities? If so, what are they?

I'll start off by giving you my view (and if you disagree, go ahead and tell me why, but please be sure to at least give me your own thesis on what you think of religion in general and its role in the world):


Science is very good, but human knowledge is incomplete with just science. My view is that when science is unable to answer some question of human curiousity, religion is an effective way to satisfy human curiousity and can provide us with answers that science hasnt been able to answer. So for example, we know that the universe started with a big bang. But what happened before the big bang, or what caused the big bang? This question science has been unable to answer, and that is where religion comes to people's rescue.

I think also that science is lacking because it only answers the HOW of the way things came about. It utterly fails by itsself to show the WHY of how things happened. For example, WHY did human beings come about? Or WHY the solar system formed. There is no scientific reason that any person can come up with that shows the reason or purpose or motives behind such events. Religion on the other hand explains to you the why and the reasons and underlying motives for these events (so for example, the existence of God serves to explain the WHY of humanity's existence), which is why it is an essential component of human endeavor. This is why I think nonbeliever's criticism of religion, regardless of what religion it is, is very misguided, even though you might be very smart and know a lot of science and debate tactics, which I notice atheist often have obsession with. The bottom line is, humans are a very curious group of creatures, and when human authorities or fields of science cannot provide them with the answers, they turn to religion to be complete. So even if one's religion is wrong and I happen to disagree with them, they are at the very least, a more complete individual as opposed to atheist/nonbeliever/heretic (which I personally believe are the worst and most intellectually dangerous disbelievers in existence), because the latter are an affront to genuine human knowledge and endeavor and fail to recognize the redeeming qualities of religion.

So the above is my general view of religion and science, and religion's place in the world. Feel free to criticize as much as you like, but I think you will find a lot of what I said makes very good and logical sense. But also, I would like to see YOUR general views on about religion (and its role in society, or relation to science). If you have 3-5 min to tell me what you think of religion in general, what would you say to me?


I am doing this for my own benefit. I want to see if there are some hidden underlying themes behind disbeliever's views rather than an endless list of "grievances", "whining" and offensive blasphemous language making fun of cherished beliefs. I do not understand the basis behind secular/atheist/nonreligious thinking, and I simply want to get the general gist of it, not the usual "Mohammed (pbuh) is paedophile". The bottom line is, I gave you my thesis on religion (bolded above), please give me yours.

Religion is an encumbrance to the progress of humanity.

felltoearth wrote:Religion is an encumbrance to the progress of humanity.

Why do you believe this, given that I have just provided you with an excellent argument demonstrating just the opposite, with several examples to support my view?

I see no evidence for a god or gods, hence I am an atheist: I have no belief in gods.

On a totally different topic that you raise, I am interested in how things work and listen to the people who have done the hard work to figure that out. When they don't have an answer to how such-and-such works the response should be: "I don't know (yet)." Not: "I'll make something up, or believe something that someone else made up just so I can feel 'complete'".

May I ask you: Why do you believe whichever stories you believe rather than any of the other stories out there that other people believe? Are your stories 'correct' and theirs false or does it not matter to you just as long as you, and they, believe in something that has no evidence behind it?

My view of religion is that it is pointless to believe because supernatural events by definition can't be influencing day to day life of earth.

My girlfriend also shares this view, she is from Thailand. Interesting story that...

Onyx8 wrote:I see no evidence for a god or gods, hence I am an atheist: I have no belief in gods.

On a totally different topic that you raise, I am interested in how things work and listen to the people who have done the hard work to figure that out. When they don't have an answer to how such-and-such works the response should be: "I don't know (yet)." Not: "I'll make something up, or believe something that someone else made up just so I can feel 'complete'".

But what about the question of WHY something happens? The motivation behind events. For example, I see a lot of nonbeliever think evolution theory is grounded in fact. But even if you believe that, and even if for sake of argument evolution was true and we understood the "mechanics" behind it of how it happens, it still doesn't explain WHY it happens. Or for example, WHY are humans here? or WHY does the universe exist? Atheism and science in particular fails by itsself because it only answers SOME of the questions of human endeavors, namely the HOW and the WHAT. It does not answer the WHY!!!!

May I ask you: Why do you believe whichever stories you believe rather than any of the other stories out there that other people believe? Are your stories 'correct' and theirs false or does it not matter to you just as long as you, and they, believe in something that has no evidence behind it?

Well this goes back again to what I said above. Science fails to answer questions of the WHY or the motivation behind existence and events happening. It only answers the how and explains mechanics of it. So yes, there are many many religions and even within religion different perspectives, but they all have the redeeming quality in that they explain the motivations behind anything happening within existence. However, the obsession that atheists and nonbelievers have with science prevents them from answering other important questions regarding the WHYs of the world. This is why, even given that most religious pursuations are PROBABLY false, what we can deduce is that nonbelief is CERTAINLY false, because it relies heavily on science and science is unable to answer other questions that fulfill human curiousity. Do you understand what I am saying? This is why I hold belief that even idolators are in many ways better than the ultimate nonbelievers such as athiest or "secularist".


Edit: Btw, thank you very much to those who responded so far for being courtious and respectful. There is still hope for many of you I believe in developing a clear mind. In the other threads I participated in so far I was confronted by aggressive belligerent elitism by some nonbeliever members who think are smarter than everybody. I do not like when atheist pick apart argument in such aggressive ways (such as hackenslach, callisseia, adparker, mrfungus, etc) instead of addressing it. Their posts were very provocative and depressing to read, not to mention time consuming. Thank you all so far for keeping it civil.

Ok, so what is the answer to "why"? You say your religion, and indeed all religions, answer this, so tell us: what is the answer to "why"?

Buddha was an atheist, so the OP's question is not very meaningful. I like what I know of the Buddha, I don't care for dogma. I do respect a spiritual practice. The word belief has the word lie in it. Maybe we need a new word, bef, for belief without the lies.

Does there have to be a why? What if there is only a how? As humans we like to think there is a reason for things, but often there is no real reason why something happened just the how it happened.

I have no vested interest in trying to convince you that praying 5 times a day and not eating bacon are stupid concepts.

If you want to do all that shit and waste your time it's your time to waste, just don't hurt anyone in the process.

Religion - and mythology generally - is a hangover from the days of oral tradition and law. The ability to store knowledge in written form also gave rise to the ability to independently test and refine that knowledge. Those that champion religion are effectively championing illiteracy over literacy. While you admit that science is better at answering the "how" questions, secular thinking and writing is also better at answering the"why" questions, and aesthetic questions, and legal questions, and ethical questions.

prove-me-wrong wrote:Edit: Btw, thank you very much to those who responded so far for being courtious and respectful. There is still hope for many of you I believe in developing a clear mind. In the other threads I participated in so far I was confronted by aggressive belligerent elitism by some nonbeliever members who think are smarter than everybody. I do not like when atheist pick apart argument in such aggressive ways...

On the small off chance that you aren't just trolling here, I wonder if you can see the hypocrisy of complaining about the smug tone of atheists immediately after using (very misplaced) smug condescension to suggest that there "is still hope" for them?

OlivierK wrote:Religion - and mythology generally - is a hangover from the days of oral tradition and law. The ability to store knowledge in written form also gave rise to the ability to independently test and refine that knowledge. Those that champion religion are effectively championing illiteracy over literacy. While you admit that science is better at answering the "how" questions, secular thinking and writing is also better at answering the"why" questions, and aesthetic questions, and legal questions, and ethical questions.

Ok let me challenge you on this point. How does secular thinking answer the "Why" question of why human beings exist? Or why the planets formed? That is the motive behind the existence of the universe and everything in it? What is the purpose?

I shall give you my philosophy which is just mine and no one elses here
Though some or many may nevertheless coincidentally share its tenets

I believe that a human being has the right to think or believe whatever they want as long as
they do not compromise the freedom of any one else to think or believe whatever they want

I am atheist but not anti theist and so do not subscribe to the fallacy that a world with out religion is
better than one with it : One only has to see how political ideologies can be just as destructive if not
more so : The Fascist and Communist regimes of the twentieth century are a perfect example of this

I believe that although we should have mutual respect for each other as human beings as referenced by
the Golden Rule that all ideas should be taken to pieces including the ones we ourselves hold to be true
This should be done in the spirit of seeking genuine wisdom and not rubbishing belief for the sake of it

I believe we should realise that no one has a monopoly on wisdom and that any opinion long as it is informed
and considered should be referenced : I believe one should learn as much from those who disagree with us as
much as from those who do not : I believe absolute freedom of speech is the most basic right after life itself

I believe we need to realise our place in the grand scheme of things and that we are here because of a process
of randomness and astronomical odds and that all we are is advanced bacteria at the end of the day : I believe
we should treat life and death as one and realise we are insignificant in relation to the Universe over all : That
we are in one state of existence before transition to the final and eternal one from which we all originally came

prove-me-wrong wrote:

OlivierK wrote:Religion - and mythology generally - is a hangover from the days of oral tradition and law. The ability to store knowledge in written form also gave rise to the ability to independently test and refine that knowledge. Those that champion religion are effectively championing illiteracy over literacy. While you admit that science is better at answering the "how" questions, secular thinking and writing is also better at answering the"why" questions, and aesthetic questions, and legal questions, and ethical questions.

Ok let me challenge you on this point. How does secular thinking answer the "Why" question of why human beings exist? Or why the planets formed? That is the motive behind the existence of the universe and everything in it? What is the purpose?

To return the challenge, how does your religion answer the question of why Pluto exists? What is the motive behind it?

My personal pet theory is that religion is art gone wrong: people starting to believe what they're imagination came up with.
No religion has ever answered any of my "why" questions in a way that I find satisfactory. The answers religion gives are either trivially true, verifiably false or impossible to check. Perhaps more importantly, religion simply doesn't add up to what I experience as a human being.

prove-me-wrong wrote:

OlivierK wrote:Religion - and mythology generally - is a hangover from the days of oral tradition and law. The ability to store knowledge in written form also gave rise to the ability to independently test and refine that knowledge. Those that champion religion are effectively championing illiteracy over literacy. While you admit that science is better at answering the "how" questions, secular thinking and writing is also better at answering the"why" questions, and aesthetic questions, and legal questions, and ethical questions.

Ok let me challenge you on this point. How does secular thinking answer the "Why" question of why human beings exist? Or why the planets formed? That is the motive behind the existence of the universe and everything in it? What is the purpose?

How does religious thinking answer the "why" questions? It asserts motive without justification. It asserts purpose without justification.

Secular thinking approaches these questions without unjustified assumptions. Hence its better track record on everything from ethics to planetary formation. Frankly, the best explanation we have for the purpose or motive of human beings' existence is that there isn't an externally imposed one. To the extent that religious thinking asserts otherwise, it is merely wrong, or unable to back it's assertions with anything other than further assertions.

Let me challenge you, who assert the superiority of religious thinking in certain spheres, to a simple challenge: provide an example where religious thinking provides a better answer to any question at all, where "better" involves actual explanatory power, and not merely an assertion of an answer.

... not the usual "Mohammed (pbuh) is paedophile"

No, because that would be dreadfully inconvenient wouldn't it?

Hardly a challenge. I won't be needing 3-5 minutes. I can do it in 3 seconds.

Religion - Pointless waste of time.