Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

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Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#1  Postby Aca » Mar 14, 2014 3:34 pm

It's a review of Watson's book (there is a thread about the book, i thought this deserves a thread on it's own) with a little bit extra

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... sm/284406/

....The problem is, the “culture war” is a false construct created by politicians and public intellectuals, left and right. The state of faith in the world is much grayer, much humbler, and much less divided than atheist academics and preaching politicians claim. Especially in the U.S., social conservatives are often called out in the media for reifying and inflaming this cultural divide: The rhetoric of once and future White House hopefuls like Rick Santorum, Sarah Palin, and Bobby Jindal reinforces an “us” and “them” distinction between those with faith and those without. Knowing God helps them live and legislate in the “right” way, they say.

But vocal atheists reinforce this binary of Godly vs. godless, too—the argument is just not as obvious. Theirs is a subtle assertion: Believers aren’t educated or thoughtful enough to debunk God, and if they only knew more, rational evidence would surely offset faith.


The problem with Watson’s argument is not that it lacks evidence—there’s a lot of history crammed into his book. Rather, it’s that Watson assembles anecdotes into a scatterplot that undeniably points toward the impossibility of God in the modern world, or so he claims. And this is where the intellectual snobbery comes in: Watson assumes that because a group of smart, respected, insightful people thought and felt their way out of believing in God, everyone else should, too. Because intellectual history trends toward non-belief, human history must, too.

This is problematic for several reasons. For one thing, it suggests that believers are inherently less thoughtful than non-believers. Watson tells stories of famous thinkers and artists who have struggled to reconcile themselves to a godless world. And these are helpful, in that they offer insight into how dynamic, creative people have tried to live. But that doesn't mean the average believer's search for meaning and understanding is any less rigorous or valuable—it just ends with a different conclusion: that God exists. Watson implies that full engagement with the project of being human in the modern world leads to atheism, and that's just not true.

We know it's not true because the vast majority of the world believes in God or some sort higher power.


The Western world in particular is probably less religious than it was 150 years ago, and the dynamics of belief and observance have certainly become more complex—the growing number of people who are unaffiliated with a specific religion is especially fascinating. But if the age of atheism started in 1882 as Watson claims, most people still haven't caught on.

The Age of Atheists will likely stay confined to certain intellectual circles: The casual philosopher, the dogmatic non-believer, the coffee-table book collector. But insofar as its argument represents a broader pathology in contemporary conversations about belief, this book matters. Most people form their beliefs and live their lives somewhere in the middle of the so-called "culture divide" that outspoken atheists and believers shout across. The more these shouters shout, the more public discourse veers away from the subtle struggle of the average person's attempt to be human.
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Re: Intellectual snobebery of conspicuous Atheism

#2  Postby Sityl » Mar 14, 2014 3:44 pm

What's more snobby than telling everyone you meet that you have a personal relationship with an all powerful being?
Stephen Colbert wrote:Now, like all great theologies, Bill [O'Reilly]'s can be boiled down to one sentence - 'There must be a god, because I don't know how things work.'


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Re: Intellectual snobebery of conspicuous Atheism

#3  Postby hackenslash » Mar 14, 2014 3:45 pm

How many intellectual snobs does it take to screw in a lightbulb?










Come on, it's obvious! :teef:
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Re: Intellectual snobebery of conspicuous Atheism

#4  Postby Fallible » Mar 14, 2014 3:48 pm

:picard:
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Re: Intellectual snobebery of conspicuous Atheism

#5  Postby trubble76 » Mar 14, 2014 3:59 pm

The dogmatic non-believer? To which dogma is he or she referring? How do we differentiate dogmatic non-believers from undogmatic non-believers?
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Re: Intellectual snobebery of conspicuous Atheism

#6  Postby Arcanyn » Mar 14, 2014 4:44 pm

Perhaps someone who's a dogmatic non-believer in Christianity because they're a dogmatic believer in Hinduism?
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Re: Intellectual snobebery of conspicuous Atheism

#7  Postby THWOTH » Mar 14, 2014 4:52 pm

Interesting article, which itself contributes to the dubious binary of the culture war by implicitly assuming that atheism is an explicit proposition rather than a conclusion about the propsitions of the religiously inclined.

I also found this interesting…

The novels of Henry James are deconstructed to reveal religious themes, and the jazz musician Charlie “Bird” Parker is credited with the Beat-era advice to “quit thinking!”

… because the branch of jazz which Parker and a small cohort of contemporaries pioneered, Bebop, was highly formalised and technically and intellectually demanding, and indeed was overtly criticised at the time for being so. But that's by the by…
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#8  Postby SkyMutt » Mar 15, 2014 9:33 am

Watson implies that full engagement with the project of being human in the modern world leads to atheism, and that's just not true.

We know it's not true because the vast majority of the world believes in God or some sort higher power.


Which in turn implies that "the vast majority of the world" is fully engaged with "the project of being human in the modern world." Though this formulation is rather vague, I have my doubts that one can assert it without support, as does Emma Green.
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#9  Postby kennyc » Mar 15, 2014 11:35 am

Aca wrote:It's a review of Watson's book (there is a thread about the book, i thought this deserves a thread on it's own) with a little bit extra

...... And these are helpful, in that they offer insight into how dynamic, creative people have tried to live. But that doesn't mean the average believer's search for meaning and understanding is any less rigorous or valuable......

.....


Yes it does.

This is simply a wrong conclusion.

As Neil says "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
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Re: Intellectual snobebery of conspicuous Atheism

#10  Postby kennyc » Mar 15, 2014 11:41 am

trubble76 wrote:The dogmatic non-believer? To which dogma is he or she referring? How do we differentiate dogmatic non-believers from undogmatic non-believers?


and what of the Unconscious Atheists? Huh? What about them?
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#11  Postby Mazille » Mar 15, 2014 11:43 am

kennyc wrote:
Aca wrote:It's a review of Watson's book (there is a thread about the book, i thought this deserves a thread on it's own) with a little bit extra

...... And these are helpful, in that they offer insight into how dynamic, creative people have tried to live. But that doesn't mean the average believer's search for meaning and understanding is any less rigorous or valuable......

.....


Yes it does.

This is simply a wrong conclusion.

As Neil says "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."

It's a heartwarming idea, to value everyone's input and opinions equally. It's also fucking stupid.
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#12  Postby kennyc » Mar 15, 2014 11:52 am

Mazille wrote:
kennyc wrote:
Aca wrote:It's a review of Watson's book (there is a thread about the book, i thought this deserves a thread on it's own) with a little bit extra

...... And these are helpful, in that they offer insight into how dynamic, creative people have tried to live. But that doesn't mean the average believer's search for meaning and understanding is any less rigorous or valuable......

.....


Yes it does.

This is simply a wrong conclusion.

As Neil says "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."

It's a heartwarming idea, to value everyone's input and opinions equally. It's also fucking stupid.


"Fair and Balanced." :rofl:
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#13  Postby kennyc » Mar 15, 2014 12:14 pm

and from the Atlantic article:

....We know it's not true because the vast majority of the world believes in God or some sort higher power. Worldwide, religious belief and observance vary widely by region. It’s tough to get a fully accurate global picture of faith in God or a “higher power,” but the metric of religiosity serves as a helpful proxy....


again faulty reasoning. Yes there are vast numbers of 'believers' in the world, but that does not make god or religion true, it simply says there are 'vast numbers of believers' -- and if we examine that rationally and scientifically it is my contention that we'll find a reason and that reason is 'Hope' - belief itself that no matter the situation one finds oneself in that things will get better. This is the fundamental basis of all religion, perhaps even life itself if we can divorce the concept of hope from intellect/consciousness. Life grows, evolves, changes, driven by the 'hope' that it will continue....
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#14  Postby kennyc » Mar 15, 2014 12:39 pm

The New Yorker article by Adam Gopnik referenced by the Atlantic article is quite good:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/a ... ntPage=all
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Re: Intellectual snobebery of conspicuous Atheism

#15  Postby THWOTH » Mar 15, 2014 1:57 pm

kennyc wrote:
trubble76 wrote:The dogmatic non-believer? To which dogma is he or she referring? How do we differentiate dogmatic non-believers from undogmatic non-believers?


and what of the Unconscious Atheists? Huh? What about them?

Or the accidental atheists eh? Eh?
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#16  Postby THWOTH » Mar 15, 2014 2:22 pm

kennyc wrote:and from the Atlantic article:

....We know it's not true because the vast majority of the world believes in God or some sort higher power. Worldwide, religious belief and observance vary widely by region. It’s tough to get a fully accurate global picture of faith in God or a “higher power,” but the metric of religiosity serves as a helpful proxy....


again faulty reasoning. Yes there are vast numbers of 'believers' in the world, but that does not make god or religion true, it simply says there are 'vast numbers of believers' -- and if we examine that rationally and scientifically it is my contention that we'll find a reason and that reason is 'Hope' - belief itself that no matter the situation one finds oneself in that things will get better. ...

Or that reason might be our cognition and responses and their antecedence in our evolutionary past? :ask:

There's nothing special about God, or god-concepts. Religion isn't about, defined by, or concerned with hope (earnest desires for good outcomes), political ideas and ideologies are concerned with that. Religion is just a particular form of political ideology. All the other stuff about living a good life, wearing a special hat, and never leaning over on a Tuesday, etc, that's just there to help persuade people that those who wield the power and authority of <nominated deity> are right (righteous) and good. IMO of course.

kennyc wrote: ... This is the fundamental basis of all religion, perhaps even life itself if we can divorce the concept of hope from intellect/consciousness. Life grows, evolves, changes, driven by the 'hope' that it will continue....

I know you put 'hope' in quotes but I think you may be anthropomorphising Life a bit there, imbuing it with intentionality and purpose an'all.
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#17  Postby kennyc » Mar 15, 2014 2:46 pm

THWOTH wrote:
kennyc wrote:and from the Atlantic article:

....We know it's not true because the vast majority of the world believes in God or some sort higher power. Worldwide, religious belief and observance vary widely by region. It’s tough to get a fully accurate global picture of faith in God or a “higher power,” but the metric of religiosity serves as a helpful proxy....


again faulty reasoning. Yes there are vast numbers of 'believers' in the world, but that does not make god or religion true, it simply says there are 'vast numbers of believers' -- and if we examine that rationally and scientifically it is my contention that we'll find a reason and that reason is 'Hope' - belief itself that no matter the situation one finds oneself in that things will get better. ...

Or that reason might be our cognition and responses and their antecedence in our evolutionary past? :ask:

There's nothing special about God, or god-concepts. Religion isn't about, defined by, or concerned with hope (earnest desires for good outcomes), political ideas and ideologies are concerned with that. Religion is just a particular form of political ideology. All the other stuff about living a good life, wearing a special hat, and never leaning over on a Tuesday, etc, that's just there to help persuade people that those who wield the power and authority of <nominated deity> are right (righteous) and good. IMO of course.

kennyc wrote: ... This is the fundamental basis of all religion, perhaps even life itself if we can divorce the concept of hope from intellect/consciousness. Life grows, evolves, changes, driven by the 'hope' that it will continue....

I know you put 'hope' in quotes but I think you may be anthropomorphising Life a bit there, imbuing it with intentionality and purpose an'all.



There actually IS a purpose to life --- to survive...or at least a primary function (which is the same thing) if/unless you wanna split cleavers....and that purpose exists whether you believe it or not. :D
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#18  Postby hackenslash » Mar 15, 2014 2:48 pm

I think we have to split hairs over function and purpose, not least because the cretinists so egregiously conflate them. They are very distinct things.
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#19  Postby kennyc » Mar 15, 2014 2:50 pm

And we of course must bend to THEIR will. :rofl:
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Re: Intellectual snobbery of conspicuous Atheism

#20  Postby THWOTH » Mar 15, 2014 3:01 pm

Yeah, perhaps I have been primed by encounters with apologetics to be wary of terms like 'purpose' and perhaps even 'meaning' in relation to questions about Life.

But I'm quite happy to take a gene-centred view of Life and and say that purpose of any organisms existence it to pass on genetic information to the next generation - so that the purpose of life is to reproduce. We could even reduce this to 'the purpose of life is to live' if you like. Indeed, one might even say that 'the meaning of life is life, and the living thereof', but it all starts to get a bit messy then doesn't it?

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