JJHLH wrote:

redwhine wrote:
It is possible for one monkey with one typewriter to achieve it in one go, however unlikely. But evolution does not start from scratch to produce every complete animal (...mixing carbon, water, etc. in a type of cement mixer). It only requires a slight mutation each 'turn'.

Mutations require a living cell before they can take effect. The problem is getting the first living cell.

As microbiology progresses we learn more and more about the complexity of a single cell. As it turns out, it much easier to build a complex machine like the space shuttle, or a supercomputer, or an atomic bomb than it is a single living cell capable of replication. Scientists still can't create a cell from scratch without the aid of other living organisms like yeast and bacteria. So if modern science is unable to accomplish it, what are the odds of it happening by itself?

Your argument is "We don't know how to do it, therefore god"?
That's not far removed from Bill O'Reilly's "Tides come in and tides go out.." argument.

If a scientist creates a cell, does that disprove a creator god?

What is the likelihood of monkeys hammering away at a keyboard and getting 488 letters in the exact sequence as in this sonnet? Since there are 26 letters in the alphabet what you end up with is 26 multiplied by itself 488 times--or 26 to the 488th power. Or, in other words, in base 10, 10 to the 690th.

It depends whether or not each correct letter is saved. If so, it wouldn't take very long at all.

For someone claiming that others misunderstand statistics, this is a rather telling admission of incomprehension.


Oh and

I'll give you an example from a book I read recently, "There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind" by Anthony Flew. In the book he said the "monkey theorem" argument is what convinced him.

You really should check your sources first. Flew was senile towards the end of his life - you can see from the number of times he retracted, restated, then retracted again. Not that it really matters what convinced or didn't convince Flew - it's terminally irrelevant.

JJHLH wrote:

redwhine wrote:
It is possible for one monkey with one typewriter to achieve it in one go, however unlikely. But evolution does not start from scratch to produce every complete animal (...mixing carbon, water, etc. in a type of cement mixer). It only requires a slight mutation each 'turn'.

Mutations require a living cell before they can take effect. The problem is getting the first living cell.

As microbiology progresses we learn more and more about the complexity of a single cell. As it turns out, it much easier to build a complex machine like the space shuttle, or a supercomputer, or an atomic bomb than it is a single living cell capable of replication. Scientists still can't create a cell from scratch without the aid of other living organisms like yeast and bacteria. So if modern science is unable to accomplish it, what are the odds of it happening by itself?

That's laughably inept. Humans can't build planets either - what's the odds of a planet happening by itself?

trubble76 wrote:

JJHLH wrote:

redwhine wrote:
It is possible for one monkey with one typewriter to achieve it in one go, however unlikely. But evolution does not start from scratch to produce every complete animal (...mixing carbon, water, etc. in a type of cement mixer). It only requires a slight mutation each 'turn'.

Mutations require a living cell before they can take effect. The problem is getting the first living cell.

As microbiology progresses we learn more and more about the complexity of a single cell. As it turns out, it much easier to build a complex machine like the space shuttle, or a supercomputer, or an atomic bomb than it is a single living cell capable of replication. Scientists still can't create a cell from scratch without the aid of other living organisms like yeast and bacteria. So if modern science is unable to accomplish it, what are the odds of it happening by itself?

Your argument is "We don't know how to do it, therefore god"?
That's not far removed from Bill O'Reilly's "Tides come in and tides go out.." argument.

If a scientist creates a cell, does that disprove a creator god?

Of course not: it 'proves' that intelligence is necessary for the creation of cells . There aint never no way to win when one's already decided prior to the outcome.

Spearthrower wrote:That's laughably inept. Humans can't build planets either - what's the odds of a planet happening by itself?

Humans may not yet be able to build planets, but I have heard of a rather clever Magrathean who designs them.

JJHLH wrote:

redwhine wrote:
It is possible for one monkey with one typewriter to achieve it in one go, however unlikely. But evolution does not start from scratch to produce every complete animal (...mixing carbon, water, etc. in a type of cement mixer). It only requires a slight mutation each 'turn'.

Mutations require a living cell before they can take effect. The problem is getting the first living cell.

As microbiology progresses we learn more and more about the complexity of a single cell. As it turns out, it much easier to build a complex machine like the space shuttle, or a supercomputer, or an atomic bomb than it is a single living cell capable of replication. Scientists still can't create a cell from scratch without the aid of other living organisms like yeast and bacteria. So if modern science is unable to accomplish it, what are the odds of it happening by itself?

As long as the odds are not nil, it could have happened.

I've heard it said that the odds of winning a major prize on the lottery are less than those of being hit by lightning 3 times, yet people win major prizes on the lottery every week - recently, 100 millionaires were 'created' in one night!

In any case, the odds of 'it happening by itself' are greater than those of the possibility that a necessarily more complex entity started the ball rolling. (...turtles all the way down.)

Spearthrower wrote:.. . There aint never no way to win when one's already decided prior to the outcome.

"There aint never no way..."?

Don't make come all the way there to smack you with that keyboard.

The_Metatron wrote:
Don't make come all the way there to smack you with that keyboard.

Now, what are the odds of that happening ALL BY ITSELF?

The_Metatron wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:.. . There aint never no way to win when one's already decided prior to the outcome.

"There aint never no way..."?

Don't make come all the way there to smack you with that keyboard.

It was very specially contrived to serve as a sardonic device!

Spearthrower wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:.. . There aint never no way to win when one's already decided prior to the outcome.

"There aint never no way..."?

Don't make come all the way there to smack you with that keyboard.

It was very specially contrived to serve as a sardonic device!

Somebody topped your tightly-packed sardonics with a nice helping of smackerel. At least that's what I'm herring round here.

Cito di Pense wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:.. . There aint never no way to win when one's already decided prior to the outcome.

"There aint never no way..."?

Don't make come all the way there to smack you with that keyboard.

It was very specially contrived to serve as a sardonic device!

Somebody topped your tightly-packed sardonics with a nice helping of smackerel. At least that's what I'm herring round here.

Therefore Cod.

The more I contemplate this the more convinced I am that the greatest phenomenon in the universe isn't a supernova, or a nebula, or a blackhole. It's a humble living cell capable or replicating itself. As amazing as those other phenomena are, they are rather commonplace in the universe. We don't know of course, but it is possible that life may only exist on earth. Looking at the odds, however you want to calculate them, it defies explanation.

The next time you are out at night looking up at the stars ponder that for a moment. One thing we can probably agree on; from either a scientific, philosophical, or religious perspective, it really is an amazing thing to be alive.

Best regards.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSyHRLRBACk[/youtube]
My cat LOVED the sound in this clip!

JJHLH wrote: Consider the following Shakespearean sonnet:

"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? <snip>

What is the likelihood of monkeys hammering away at a keyboard and getting 488 letters in the exact sequence as in this sonnet? Since there are 26 letters in the alphabet what you end up with is 26 multiplied by itself 488 times--or 26 to the 488th power. Or, in other words, in base 10, 10 to the 690th.

This and the 747 being assembled out of a tornado (whirlwind?) - why do these silly arguments keep rearing their bovine heads? Shall I compare them to an offal dungheap?

Look, what is the probability of "Shall I compare thee" being written at all? Slim, very slim. First of all, language had to evolve to a point of sophistication that allowed for the complex ideas and phrasing in the sonnet. We don't know, nor may never know, when & how language began, but it most certainly began on a rudimentary, grunting level. (Unless one believes Genesis, creation story #2, where Yahweh God & Adam have perfect communication in, what, God-language? But that's another story...) So we have to go from grunting, to a gradual ratcheting up of language in order to express more complex ideas, from Indo-European to Latin & Germanic languages to French & Old English to Middle English to Modern English. And all the linguistic/literary/cultural prerequisites were necessary before we could even think about ol' Willy writing a single line of iambic pentameter.

Let me be crystal clear: Willy had to be born at the right time & the right place - with a good foundational education and access to the rich literary traditions available at the time - in order for this sonnet to be written. Imagine if, through some dastardly confluence of events, Young Will at the tender age of 1 were spirited off to the mountains of Borneo and raised by locals. Would this sonnet have been written? Of course not. It only happened because of evolution - in this case, linguistic/cultural evolution over hundreds of thousands of years.

And the same for the 747: it is only possible through a geometrically expanding technological evolution over tens of thousands of years.

And the necessity of the single cell you talk about in another post? You're starting with way too much complexity, as others have pointed out. Start with the grunting self-replicating molecule before you feel obliged to house it in a protective cell. Then witness the geometrically expanding ratcheting up of complexity in an optimal environment.

And even if we could never know for sure how life began here on this odd planet, let's not jump to the conclusion that ergo there must have been some supernatural creator. That's just plain guessing.

So basically, the argument now being peddled here consists of "I can't figure out how it happened, therefore a magic man is needed" ... right.

Time to introduce this little lot of scientific papers:

A Combined Experimental And Theoretical Study On The Formation Of The Amino Acid Glycine And Its Isomer In Extraterrestrial Ices by Philip D. Holtom, Chris J. Bennett, Yoshihiro Osamura, Nigel J Mason and Ralf. I Kaiser, The Astrophysical Journal, 626: 940-952 (20th June 2005)

A Production Of Amino Acids Under Possible Primitive Earth Conditions by Stanley L. Miller, Science, 117: 528-529 (15th May 1953)

A Rigorous Attempt To Verify Interstellar Glycine by I. E. Snyder, F. J. Lovas, J. M. Hollis, D. N. Friedel, P. R. Jewell, A. Remijan, V. V. Ilyushin, E. A. Alekseev and S. F. Dyubko, The Astrophysical Journal, 619(2): 914-930 (1st February 2005) {Also available at arXiv.org]

A Self-Replicating Ligase Ribozyme by Natasha Paul & Gerald F. Joyce, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA., 99(20): 12733-12740 (1st October 2002)

A Self-Replicating System by T. Tjivuka, P. Ballester and J. Rebek Jr, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 112: 1249-1250 (1990)

Activated Acetic Acid By Carbon Fixation On (Fe,Ni)S Under Primordial Conditions by Claudia Huber and Günter Wächetershäuser, Science, 276: 245-247 (11th April 1997)

An Asymmetric Underlying Rule In The Assignment Of Codons: Possible Clue To A Quick Early Evolution Of The Genetic Code Via Successive Binary Choices by Marc Delarue, The RNA Journal, 13(2): 161-169 (12th December 2006)

An Expanded Set Of Amino Acid Analogues For The Ribosomal Translation Of Unnatural Peptides by Matthew C. T. Hartman, Kristopher Josephson, Chi-Wang Lin and Jack W. Szostak, PLoS One, 2(10): e972 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0000972 (October 2007)

Attempted Prebiotic Synthesis Of Pseudouridine by Jason P. Dworkin, Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, 27: 345-355 (1997)

Autocatalytic Aptazymes Enable Ligand-Dependent Exponential Amplification Of RNA by Bianca J. Lam and Gerald F. Joyce, Nature Biotechnology, 27(3): 288-292 (March 2009)

Carbonyl Sulphide-Mediated Prebiotic Formation Of Peptides by Luke Leman, Leslie Orgel and M. Reza Ghadiri, Science, 306: 283-286 (8th October 2004)

Catalysis In Prebiotic Chemistry: Application To The Synthesis Of RNA Oligomers by James P. Ferris, Prakash C. Joshi, K-J Wang, S. Miyakawa and W. Huang, Advances in Space Research, 33: 100-105 (2004)

Cations As Mediators Of The Adsorption Of Nucleic Acids On Clay Surfaces In Prebiotic Environments by Marco Franchi, James P. Ferris and Enzo Gallori, Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, 33: 1-16 (2003)

Chemistry for the Synthesis of Nucleobase-Modified Peptide Nucleic Acid by R. H. E. Hudson, R. D. Viirre, Y. H. Liu, F. Wojciechowski and A. K. Dambenieks, Pure Appl. Chem., 76(7-8) 1591-1598, 2004

Coevolution Of Compositional Protocells And Their Environment by Barak Shenhav, Aia Oz and Doron Lancet, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 362: 1813-1819 (9th May 2007)

Computational Models For The Formation Of Protocell Structures by Linglan Edwards, Yun Peng and James A. Reggia, Artificial Life, 4(1): 61-77 (1998)

Conditions For The Emergence Of Life On The Early Earth: Summary And Reflections by Joshua Jortner, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1877-1891 (11th September 2006)

Coupled Growth And Division Of Model Protocell Membranes by Ting F. Zhu and Jack W. Szostak, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 131: 5705-5713 (2009)

Darwinian Evolution On A Chip by Brian M. Paegel and Gerald F. Joyce, Public Library of Science Biology, 6(4): e85 (April 2008)

Early Anaerobic Metabolisms by Don E Canfield, Minik T Rosing and Christian Bjerrum, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1819-1836 (11th September 2006)

Efficient And Rapid Template-Directed Nucleic Acid Copying Using 2′-Amino-2′,3′-dideoxyribonucleoside-5′-Phosphorimidazolide Monomers by Jason P. Schrum, Alonso Ricardo, Mathangi Krishnamurthy, J. Craig Blain and Jack W. Szostak, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 131(40): 14560-14570 (16th September 2009)

Emergence Of A Replicating Species From An In Vitro RNA Evolution Reaction by Ronald R. Breaker and Gerald F. Joyce, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 91: 6093-6097 (June 1994)

Enzymatic Synthesis Of DNA On Glycerol Nucleic Acid Templates Without Stable Duplex Formation Between Product And Template by Ching-Hsuan Tasi, Jingyang Chen and Jack W. Szostak, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 104(37): 14598-14603 (11th September 2007)

Evolution And Self-Assembly Of Protocells by Ricard V. Solé, The International Journal of Biochemistry & Cell Biology, 41: 274-284 (2009)

Evolution Of Amino Acid Frequencies In Proteins Over Deep Time: Inferred Order Of Introduction Of Amino Acids Into The Genetic Code by Dawn J. Brooks, Jacques R. Fresco, Arthur M. Lesk and Mona Singh, Molecular and Biological Evolution, 19(10): 1645-1655 (2002)

Experimental Models Of Primitive Cellular Compartments: Encapsulation, Growth And Division by Martyn M. Hanczyk, Shelley M. Fukijawa and Jack W. Szostak, Science, 302: 618-622 (24th October 2003)

Formation Of Bimolecular Membranes From Lipid Monolayers And A Study Of Their Electrical Properties by M. Montal and P. Mueller, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 69(12): 3561-3566 (December 1972)

Formation Of Protocell-Like Structures From Glycine And Formaldehyde In A Modified Sea Medium by Hiroshi Yanagawa and Fujio Egami, Proceedings of the Japan Academy, 53: 42-45 (12th January 1977)

Formation Of Protocell-Like Vesicles In A Thermal Diffusion Column by Itay Budin, Raphael J. Bruckner and Jack W. Szostak, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 131: 9628-9629 (2009)

From Volcanic Origins Of Chemoautotrophic Life To Bacteria, Archaea And Eukarya by Günter Wächtershaüser, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London Part B, 361: 1787-1808 (7th September 2006)

Functional Information And The Emergence Of Biocomplexity by Robert M. Hazen, Patrick L. Griffin, James M. Carothers and Jack W. Szostak, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 104 supplement 1: 8574-8581 (15th May 2007)

Generic Darwinian Selection In Catalytic Protocell Assemblies by Andreea Munteanu, Camille Stephan-Otto Attolini, Steen Rasmussen, Hans Ziock and Ricard V. Solé, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 362: 1847-1855 (2007)

Homochiral Selection In The Montmorillonite-Catalysed And Uncatalysed Prebiotic Synthesis Of RNA by Prakash C. Joshi, Stefan Pitsch and James P. Ferris, Chemical Communications (Royal Society of Chemistry), 2497-2498 (2000) [DOI: 10.1039/b007444f]

How Life Began On Earth: A Status Report by Jeffrey L. Bada, Earth & Planetary Science Letters, 226: 1-15 (22nd July 2004)

Hyperthermophiles In The History Of Life by Karl O. Stetter, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1837-1843 (11th September 2006)

Identification Of Diamino Acids In The Murchison Meteorite by Uwe J. Meierhenrich, Guillermo M. Muñoz Caro, Jan Hendrik Brederhöft, Elmar K. Jessberger and Wolfram H-P. Thiemann, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 101(25):9182-9286 (22nd June 2004)

Implications Of A 3.472-3.333?GYr-Old Subaerial Microbal Mat From The Barberton Greenstone Belt, South Africa, For The UV Environmental Conditions Of The Early Earth by Frances Westall, Cornel E.J de Ronde, Gordon Southam, Nathalie Grassineau, Maggy Colas, Charles Cockell and Helmut Lammer, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1857-1876 (11th September 2006)

Information Transfer From Peptide Nucleic Acids To RNA By Template-Directed Syntheses by Jürgen G. Schmidt, Peter E. Nielsen and Leslie E. Orgel, Nucleic Acids Research, 25(23): 4794-4802 (1997)

Interstellar Glycine by Yi-Jehng Kuan, Steven B. Charnley, Hui-Chun Huang, Wei-Ling Tseng, and Zbigniew Kisiel, The Astrophysical Journal, 593: 848-867 (20th August 2003)

Is There A Common Chemical Model For Life In The Universe? by Steven A. Benner, Alonso Ricardo and Matthew A. Carrigan, Current Opinion in Chemical Biology, 8: 672-689 (22nd October 2004)

Kin Selection And Virulence In The Evolution Of Protocells And Parasites by Steven A. Frank, Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Part B, 258: 153-161 (1994)

Ligation Of The Hairpin Ribozyme In cis Induced By Freezing And Dehydration by Sergei A. Kazakov, Svetlana V. Balatskaya and Brian H. Johnston, The RNA Journal, 12: 446-456 (2006)

Lipid Bilayer Fibres From Diastereomeric And Enantiomeric N-Octylaldonamides by Jürgen-Hinrich Fuhrhop, Peter Schneider, Egbert Boekema and Wolfgang Helfrich, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 110: 2861-2867 (1988)

"Living" Under The Challenge Of Information Decay: The Stochastic Corrector Model Versus Hypercycles by Elias Zintzaras, Mauro Santos and Eörs Szathmáry, Journal of Theoretical Biology, 217: 167-181 (2002)

Membrane Self-Assembly Processes: Steps Toward The First Cellular Life by Pierre-Alain Monnard and David W. Deamer, The Anatomical Record, 268: 196-207 (2002)

Mineral Catalysis And Prebiotic Synthesis: Montmorillonite-Catalysed Formation Of RNA by James P. Ferris, Elements, 1: 145-149 (June 2005)

Mineral Surface Directed Membrane Assembly by Martyn M. Hanczyc, Sheref S. Mansy and Jack W. Szostak, Origins of Life and Evolution of Biospheres, 37(1): 67-82 (February 2007)

Model Of Self-Replicating Cell Capable Of Self-Maintenance by Naoaki Ono and Takashi Ikegami, in Lecture Notes in Computer Science: Advances in Artificial Life, 1674: 399-406 (25th June 1999) (also available as full paper at arXiv.org: adap-org/9905002v2)

Molecular Asymmetry In Extraterrestrial Chemistry: Insights From A Pristine Meteorite by Sandra Pizzarello, Yongsong Huang and Marcelo R. Alexandre, Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 105(10): 3700-3704 (11th March 2008)

Molecular Dynamics Simulation Of The Formation, Structure, And Dynamics Of Small Phospholipid Vesicles by Siewert J. Marrink and Alan E. Mark, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 125: 15233-15242 (2003)

Molecular Messages by Jack W. Szostak, Nature, 423: 689 (12th June 2003)

Montmorillonite Catalysis Of 30-50 Mer Oligonucleotides: Laboratory Demonstration Of Potential Steps In The Origin Of The RNA World by James P. Ferris, Origins of Life and Evolution of the biosphere, 32: 311-332 (2002)

Montmorillonite Catalysis Of RNA Oligomer Formation In Aqueous Solution: A Model For The Prebiotic Formation Of RNA by James P. Ferris and Gözen Ertem, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 115: 12270-12275 (1993)

Montmorillonite-Catalysed Formation Of RNA Oligomers: The Possible Role Of Catalysis In The Origins Of Life by James P. Ferris, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1777-1786 (7th September 2006)

Nucelotide Synthetase Ribozymes May Have Emerged First In The RNA World by Wentao Ma, Chunwu Yu, Wentao Zhang and Jiming Hu, The RNA Journal, 13: 2012-2019, 18th September 2007

Nutrient Uptake By Protocells: A Liposome Model System by Pierre-Alain Monnard and David W. Deamer, Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, 31: 147-155 (2001)

Organic Compounds In Carbonaceous Meteorites by Mark A. Sephton, Natural Products Reports (Royal Society of Chemistry), 19: 292-311 (2002)

Peptide Formation Mediated By Hydrogen Cyanide Tetramer: A Possible Prebiotic Process by Sherwood Chang, José Flores and Cyril Ponnamperuma, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 64(3) 1011-1015 (1st November 1969)

Peptide Nucleic Acids Rather Than RNA May Have Been The First Genetic Molecule by Kevin E. Nelson, Matthew Levy and Stanley L. Miller, Proc. Natl, Acad. Sci. USA., 97(8): 3868-3871, 11th April 2000

Peptides By Activation Of Amino Acids With CO On (Ni,Fe)S Surfaces: Implications For The Origin Of Life by Claudia Huber and Günter Wächtershäuser, Science, 281: 670-672 (31st July 1998)

Phenotypic Diversity And Chaos In A Minimal Cell Model by Andreea Munteanu and Ricard V. Solé, Journal of Theoretical Biology, 240: 434-442 (2006)

Prebiotic Amino Acids As Asymmetric Catalysts by Sandra Pizzarello and Arthur L. Weber, Science, 303: 1151 (20 February 2004)

Prebiotic Chemistry And The Origin Of The RNA World by Leslie E. Orgel, Critical Reviews in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, 39: 99-123 (2004)

Prebiotic Materials From On And Off The Early Earth by Max Bernstein, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1689-1702 (11th September 2006)

Prebiotic Synthesis On Minerals: Bridging The Prebiotic And RNA Worlds by James P. Ferris, Biological Bulletin, 196: 311-314 (June 1999)

Preparation Of Large Monodisperse Vesicles by Ting F. Zhu and Jack W. Szostak, PLoS One, 4(4): e5009 (April 2009)

Racemic Amino Acids From The Ultraviolet Photolysis Of Interstellar Ice Analogues by Max P. Bernstein, Jason P. Dworkin, Scott A. Sandford, George W. Copoper and Louis J. Allamandola, Nature, 416: 401-403

Reconstructing The Emergence Of Cellular Life Through The Synthesis Of Model Protocells by Sheref S. Mansy and Jack W. Szostak, [/i]Cold Spring Harbor Symposia on Quantitative Biology[/i], Volume LXXIV (4th September 2009)

Replicating Vesicles As Models Of Primitive Cell Growth And Division by Martin M. Hanczyc and Jack W. Szostak, Current Opinion In Chemical Biology, 8: 660-664 (22nd October 2004)

Ribosomal Synthesis Of Unnatural Peptides by Kristopher Josephson, Matthew C. T. Hartman and Jack W. Szostak, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 127: 11727-11735 (2005)

Ribozymes: Building The RNA World by Gerald F. Joyce, Current Biology, 6(8): 965-967, 1996

RNA Catalysis In Model Protocell Vesicles by Irene A Chen, Kourosh Salehi-Ashtiani and Jack W Szostak, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 127: 13213-13219 (2005)

RNA-Catalysed Nucleotide Synthesis by Peter J. Unrau and David P. Bartel, Nature, 395: 260-263 (17th September 1998)

RNA-Catalyzed RNA Polymerization: Accurate and General RNA-Templated Primer Extension by Wendy K. Johnston, Peter J. Unrau, Michael S. Lawrence, Margaret E. Glasner and David P. Bartel, Science, 292: 1319-1325, 18th May 2001

RNA-Directed Amino Acid Homochirality by J. Martyn Bailey, FASEB Journal (Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology), 12: 503-507 (1998)

RNA Evolution And The Origin Of Life by Gerald F. Joyce, Nature, 338: 217-224 (16th March 1989)

Selection And Evolution Of Enzymes From A Partially Randomised Non-Catalytic Scaffold by Burckhard Seelig and Jack W. Szostak, Nature, 448: 828-833 (16th August 2007)

Self Replicating Systems by Volker Patzke and Günter von Kiedrowski, ARKIVOC 5: 293-310, 2007

Self-Assembling Amphiphilic Molecules Synthesis In Simulated Interstellar/Precometary Ices by Jason P. Dworkin, David W. Deamer, Scott A. Sandford and Louis J. Allamandola, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 98(3): 815-819 (30th January 2001)

Self-Assembly Of Surfactant-Like Peptides With Variable Glycine Tails To Form Nanotubes And Nanovesicles by Steve Santoso, Wonmuk Hwang, Hyman Hartman and Shuguang Zhang, Nano Letters, 2(7): 687-691 (2002)

Self-Assembly Processes In The Prebiotic Environment by David Deamer, Sara Singaram, Sudha Rajamani, Vladimir Kompanichenko and Stephen Guggenheim, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1689-1702 (11th September 2006)

Self-Organising Biochemical Cycles by Leslie E. Orgel, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 97(23): 12503-12507 (7th November 2000)

Self-Sustained Replication Of An RNA Enzyme by Tracey A. Lincoln and Gerald F. Joyce, ScienceExpress, DOI: 10.1126/science.1167856 (8th January 2009)

Semipermeable Lipid Bilayers Exhibit Diastereoselectivity Favouring Ribose by M. G. Sacerdote and Jack W. Szostak, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 102(17): 6004-6008 (26th April 2005)

Sequence- And Regio-Selectivity In The Montmorillonite-Catalysed Synthesis Of RNA by Gözen Ertem and James P. Ferris, Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, 30: 411-422 (2000)

Shrink-Wrap Vescicles by Shelley M. Fukijawa, Irene A. Chen and Jack W. Szostak, Langmuir: The ACS Journal of Surfaces and Colloids, 21(26): 12124-12129 (20th December 2005) [Note: published online 10th November 2005]

Simulation Of The Spontaneous Aggregation Of Phospholipids Into Bilayers by Siewert J. Marrink, Eric Lindahl, Olle Edholm and Alan E. Mark, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 123: 8638-8639 (2001)

Single-Molecule Imaging Of An In Vitro Evolved RNA Aptamer Reveals Homogeneous Ligand Binding Kinetics by Mark P. Elenko, jack W. Szostak and Antoine M. van Oijen, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 131: 9866-9867 (2009)

Structural Insights Into The Evolution Of A Non-Biological Protein: Importance Of Surface Residues In Protein Fold Optimisation by Matthew D. Smith, Matthew A. Rosenow, Meitian Wang, James P. Allen, Jack W Szostak and John C. Chaput, PLoS One, 2(5): e467. DOI :10.1371/journal.pone.0000467

Synchronisation Phenomena In Internal Reaction Models Of Protocells by Roberto Serra, Timoteo Carletti, Alessandro Filisetti and Irene Poli, Artificial life, 13: 123-128 (2007)

Synchronisation Phenomena In Protocell Models by Alessandro Filisetti, Roberto Serra, Timoteo Carletti, Irene Poli and Marco Villani, Biophysical Reviews and Letters, 3(1-2): 325-342 (2008)

Synthesis Of 35-40 Mers Of RNA Oligomers From Unblocked Monomers. A Simple Approach To The RNA World by Wenhua Huang and James P. Ferris, Chemical Communications of the Royal Society of Chemistry, 1458-1459 (2003)

Synthesis Of Activated Pyrimidine Ribonucleotides In Prebiotically Plausible Conditions by Matthew W. Powner, Béatrice Gerland and John D. Sutherland, Nature, 459:239-242 (14th May 2009)

Synthesis Of Long Prebiotic Oligomers On Mineral Surfaces by James P. Ferris, Aubrey R. Hill Jr, Rihe Liu and Leslie E. Orgel, Nature, 381: 59-61 (2nd May 1996)

Synthesising Life by Jack W. Szostak, David P. Bartel and P. Luigi Luisi, Nature, 409: 387-390 (18th January 2001)

Synthetic Protocell Biology: From Reproduction To Computation by Ricard V. Solé, Andreea Munteanu, Carlos Rodriguez-Caso and Javier Macia, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 362: 1727-1739 (October 2007)

Systems Chemistry On Early Earth by Jack W. Szostak, Nature, 459: 171 (14th May 2009)

Template-Directed Synthesis Of A Genetic Polymer In A Model Protocell by Sheref S. Mansy, Jason P. Schrum, Mathangi Krisnamurthy, Sylvia Tobé, Douglas A. Treco and Jack W. Szostak, Nature, 454: 122-125 (4th June 2008)

The Antiquity Of RNA-Based Evolution by Gerald F. Joyce, Nature, 418: 214-221, 11th July 2002

The Case For An Ancestral Genetic System Involving Simple Analogues Of The Nucleotides by Gerald F. Joyce, Alan W. Schwartz, Stanley L. Miller and Leslie E. Orgel, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 84: 4398-4402 (July 1987)

The Descent of Polymerisation by Matthew Levy and Andrew D. Ellington, Nature Structural Biology, 8(7): 580-582, July 2001

The Emergence Of Competition Between Model Protocells by Irene A Chen, Richard W. Roberts and Jack W. Szostak, Science, 305:1474-1476 (3rd September 2004)

The Generality Of DNA-Templated Synthesis As A Basis For Evolving Non-Natural Small Molecules by Zev J. Gartner and David R. Liu, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 123: 6961-6963 (2001)

The Lifetimes Of Nitriles (CN) And Acids (COOH) During Ultraviolet Photolysis And Their Survival In Space by Max P. Bernstein, Samantha F. M. Ashbourne, Scott A. Sandford and Louis J. Allamandola, The Astrophysical Journal, 601: 3650270 (20th January 2004)

The Lipid World by Daniel Segré, Dafna Ben-Eli, David W. Deamer and Doron Lancet, Origins of Life And Evolution of the Biosphere, 31: 119-145, 2001

The Miller Volcanic Spark Discharge Experiment by Adam P. Johnson, H. James Cleaves., Jason D. Dworkin, Daniel P. Glavin, Antonio Lazcano and Jeffrey L. Bada, Science, 322: 404 (17th October 2008)

The Origin And Early Evolution Of Life: Prebiotic Chemistry, The Pre-RNA World, And Time by Antonio Laczano and Stanley R. Miller, Cell, 85: 793-798 (14th June 1996)

The Origin And Emergence Of Life Under Impact Bombardment by Charles S. Cockell, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1845-1856 (7th September 2006)

The Origin Of Replicators And Reproducers by Eörs Szathmáry, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1689-1702 (11th September 2006)

The Prebiotic Molecules Observed In The Interstellar Gas by P. Thaddeus, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1689-1702 (7th September 2006)

The Roads To And From The RNA World by Jason P. Dworkin, Antonio Lazcano and Stanley L. Miller, Journal of Theoretical Biology, 222: 127-134 (2003)

The Stability Of The RNA Bases: Implications For The Origins Of Life by Matthew Levy and Stanley R. Miller, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 95: 7933-7938 (July 1998)

Thermostability Of Model Protocell Membranes by Sheref S. Mansy and Jack W. Szostak, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 105(36): 13351-13355 (9th September 2008)

Toward Synthesis Of A Minimal Cell by Anthony C. Forster and George M. Church, Molecular Systems Biology (2006) doi:10.1038/msb4100090

Transcription And Translation In An RNA World by William R. Taylor, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1689-1702 (11th September 2006)

Two Step Potentially Prebiotic Synthesis Of α-D-Cystidine-5'-Phosphate From D-Glyceraldehyde-3-Phosphate by Carole Anastasi, Michael A. Crowe and John D. Sutherland, Journal of the American Chemical Society (Communications), 129: 24-24 (2007)

So, we have a range of scientific papers, covering everything from the basic synthesis of simple precursor molecules, through the synthesis of self-replicating RNA molecules (ribozymes and aptazymes), through to the first stage experiments aimed at producing model protocells in the laboratory. One of those papers documents an experimental demonstration that simple self-replicating RNAs can undergo Darwinian selection for different reaction paths. Looks like we're a good deal closer to rendering a magic man superfluous to requirements and irrelevant, than many supernaturalists think.

Spearthrower wrote:

What is the likelihood of monkeys hammering away at a keyboard and getting 488 letters in the exact sequence as in this sonnet? Since there are 26 letters in the alphabet what you end up with is 26 multiplied by itself 488 times--or 26 to the 488th power. Or, in other words, in base 10, 10 to the 690th.

It depends whether or not each correct letter is saved. If so, it wouldn't take very long at all.

bears repeating.

I recently taught my daughter to play Mastermind. According to the box, there are 32,768 permutations - 59,049 if you count "blank" as a colour. Despite this, we usually go through only a half dozen tries max before guessing the other's sequence.

Natural selection saves the stuff that works and eliminates - brutally - the stuff that doesn't. That's the whole point.

Nicko wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

What is the likelihood of monkeys hammering away at a keyboard and getting 488 letters in the exact sequence as in this sonnet? Since there are 26 letters in the alphabet what you end up with is 26 multiplied by itself 488 times--or 26 to the 488th power. Or, in other words, in base 10, 10 to the 690th.

It depends whether or not each correct letter is saved. If so, it wouldn't take very long at all.

bears repeating.

I recently taught my daughter to play Mastermind. According to the box, there are 32,768 permutations - 59,049 if you count "blank" as a colour. Despite this, we usually go through only a half dozen tries max before guessing the other's sequence.

Natural selection saves the stuff that works and eliminates - brutally - the stuff that doesn't. That's the whole point.

Of course, this all requires self-replication to exist. Although one could consider another effective forces of selection in a precursor state to informational replication.

This talk was quite interesting with regards towards understanding why some people's tendency towards discrete platonic ideals might be so inherently poor at considering these topics. Effectively, people set up non-overlapping magisteria of qualities for things which are alive, and things which aren't, and then they marvel at the wall they've built.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dySwrhMQdX4[/youtube]

JJHLH wrote:

redwhine wrote:
It is possible for one monkey with one typewriter to achieve it in one go, however unlikely. But evolution does not start from scratch to produce every complete animal (...mixing carbon, water, etc. in a type of cement mixer). It only requires a slight mutation each 'turn'.

Mutations require a living cell before they can take effect. The problem is getting the first living cell.

Then you're not producing arguments against evolution, you're asking about the origin of life.

JJHLH wrote:As microbiology progresses we learn more and more about the complexity of a single cell. As it turns out, it much easier to build a complex machine like the space shuttle, or a supercomputer, or an atomic bomb than it is a single living cell capable of replication. Scientists still can't create a cell from scratch without the aid of other living organisms like yeast and bacteria. So if modern science is unable to accomplish it, what are the odds of it happening by itself?

Scientists can't make a grain of sand either, despite it's apparent lack of "complexity", and it's really simple why: The building blocks are too fucking small and it would take too many of them to assemble one in a meaningful timeframe. We don't have machines that can grab atoms and start assembling molecules one at a time, hold them "in place" and construct a complete cell. The challenge isn't so much one of complexity, we can make extremely complex things already, it's manipulating objects at the atomic scale, keeping them in place, and building up a complete functional entity. This is simply beyond our technology at this time.

Sure, we have things like scanning tunneling or atomic-force microscopes that can manipulate single atoms, and we can put single atoms next to each other and make them spell out words on a flat surface. But we can't "force" them to take up specific chemical bonds in the same way things happen by themselves in chemistry, and even if we could it would still take thousands of years to assamble anything like a living cell simply as a consequence of how many atoms we'd have to put in the correct place, one after another. This, again, is not because the cell is too complex for our comprehension, it's because it's too fucking small.

Hey, the solar system is nowhere near the complexity of a living cell, but we can't make solar systems either. Why is that? The objects are too large and require too much energy and material to construct and move around. You're using a bogus argument, because nonetheless these things do happen by themselves in nature. Solar systems come and go, as do grains of sand, despite the inability of human beings to make them. They don't require divine intervention or intelligent design, they just require the right materials, in the right quantities, submitted to the right environmental constraints, and time. Why should the origin of life be any different?

Take Mt. Everest, exactly as it is now, atom for atom, each in it's specific location. How complex an object is that? How unfathomably many building blocks does it take to make Mt. Everest? And what are the odds that if you had a giant lump of material required to build a mountain, that it would somehow manage to find itself configured exactly like the atoms that make up Mt. Everest, 300 million years in the future? Incalculable, unfathomable, incomprehensible. Yet there it is, and we have a perfectly reasonable natural explanation for it. Evironmental constraints, the right conditions and time. The awesome machinery of nature.

Oh but the cell is so complex, it has functional parts, it's got this and that. This is no different from "the complexity of the eye" argument, which evolution is the explanation for. Since evolution is the explanation for the complexity of life, the origin of life has to be a much simpler explanation. You'd have to get an entity capable of evolving, it doesn't have to have the complexity of modern cells now 3.8 billion years of evolution later.

What you're doing here is propagandizing for defeatism. You cannot imagine how it is possible, you cannot wrap your head around how it could happen. You want to give up, you want to declare the search over and a waste of time. You want to stop science and you want to stop dreaming, exploring, striving and achieving. Well mate, on this forum you'd be close to alone with that worldview. In the mean time, science will progress and brilliant people will work on figuring out how that which you cannot even imagine could take place, and you'll be left in the dustbin of history with all the other people who screamed "you'll never get that thing off the ground, humans weren't meant to fly", wallowing around in superstition and ignorance.

In short, "it's too hard, therefore don't bother and treat made up shit as fact". Which basically sums up intellectual indolence full stop, regardless of its manifestations.

JJHLH wrote:The more I contemplate this the more convinced I am that the greatest phenomenon in the universe isn't a supernova, or a nebula, or a blackhole. It's a humble living cell capable or replicating itself. As amazing as those other phenomena are, they are rather commonplace in the universe. We don't know of course, but it is possible that life may only exist on earth. Looking at the odds, however you want to calculate them, it defies explanation.

The next time you are out at night looking up at the stars ponder that for a moment. One thing we can probably agree on; from either a scientific, philosophical, or religious perspective, it really is an amazing thing to be alive.

Best regards.

The humble living cell though is reproducible by steps and eventually ceases to be life as we know it. A far greater phenomenon in the universe is this beauty...

[math]e^{\pi i} + 1 = 0