Ratskep on Atheism+

Atheism, secularism & freethought etc.

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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#81  Postby maiforpeace » Aug 26, 2012 4:46 pm

One of the comments made at the meeting last night about Atheism+ was created with a strong interest towards affiliation with The National Atheist Party.

I very much appreciated Cali's take on this. (posted below)

So, perhaps the framing for this particular splinter of atheism is more of a regional thing? It was founded in the US, after all. We have our own unique set of issues that we are facing in regards to the atheist community.

John P.M. hinted as such as well.

Subject: Atheism+ hits the MSM

Subject: The National Atheist Party

Calilasseia wrote:I'll repeat once more what maiforpeace posted earlier in the thread, taken from the NAP website, which amkerman ignored completely whilst riding his tired little hobby horse. Appropriate parts highlighted.

A reminder: The NAP welcomes secularists of all religious backgrounds, including none at all. Anti-theist statements, jokes, memes and hate-speech are a violation of our code of conduct and certainly not conducive to party unity. Many of our members are anti-theists, I know, but some of our members are also Christian, Buddhist, Wiccan, Pagan (and others) secularists. We do not discriminate against anyone for any reason. All are welcome here, provided they share our goals. Our goals are: 1) to give atheists a voice in public policy - something no other political party openly allows; 2) to reinforce the Constitutionally-guaranteed rights of all Americans to the freedom of religion, including the freedom FROM religion; and 3) to defend the concept of the Wall of Separation between church and state, under constant attack by "Dominionists" within the Christian Right, who seek to establish a Christian theocracy.

Under the auspices of #1, we have developed a platform, by polling YOU, our members, in order that public policy can be guided by evidenced conclusions and scientific principles. It is through that platform that we accomplish advocacy. A proactive and positive approach to atheism and politics that is designed to show the world that atheists are everyday Americans.

This party will not, under any circumstances "combat" religion. It is in our mission statement and founding principles that we support the right of Americans to worship how they choose, if at all. What we don't support is anyone's attempt to force their religion on others or into the publicly-funded arena.


Of course, the above facts won't stop amkerman from continuing to peddle his "atheism is a religion" assertion, which has been roundly destroyed elsewhere. Indeed, I educated him with respect to this matter, in this previous post, which elicited this farcical pretence at a response from him when I educated him, followed by this synthetic excuse for not bothering to pay attention to the lessons I've been dispensing. Of course, it wasn't the first time I introduced him to the relevant concepts - this post was an earlier such outing, dated 13th March 2012, which of course he ignored because it didn't genuflect before his presuppositions, and demonstrated this by posting this piece of trite drivel, on 24th March 2012, after I had educated him with respect to the relevant issues. I don't expect him to address any of this, of course, because he openly admitted that he can't be bothered in the relevant posts I've linked to above, and has also demonstrated in one of those posts, a penchant for erecting synthetic excuses to justify his evasion of the substantive issues, in the form of asserting that the dismantling of his canards is "juvenile and inflammatory".

Now, returning to the actual subject matter, namely the NAP, I regard it as a tactical mistake for them to choose the label they have, not least because they have stated above that they welcome anyone who shares their core objectives, regardless of whether or not those persons indulge in any supernaturalist vices or not. As that quoted piece Mai kindly provided us with explains, the organisation in question seeks simply to establish the Jeffersonian wall of separation in a robust, consistent and coherent manner. Those forming this organisation consider this to be is necessary, precisely because that wall of separation is under concerted and duplicitous attack by ideological theocrats. It's not as if we're lacking evidence for this. Nor are we lacking for evidence pointing to the poisonous effects of religiosity, within the American arenas of discourse and policy making, one of the nastier manifestations thereof being a truly vicious, Streicher-esque demonisation of anyone who fails to genuflect before mythological assertions, and treat said assertions as fact. On occasions, that demonisation yields murderous consequences, as the case of Arthur Shelton tragically informs us. This poisoned discoursive atmosphere, lamentably, provides evidence supporting the claim that the existence of an organisation such as the NAP is a pressing necessity.

That there are possibly better ways forward, I do not doubt. But I am not going to be churlish, and deride the courage of those seeking to do their best to address the relevant issues in a positive manner, in the discoursive environment within which they have to operate.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#82  Postby Oldskeptic » Aug 26, 2012 4:50 pm

orpheus wrote:On splintering:

Here is a video of a lecture by Sherwin Wine, given several years ago at the "New Humanism" conference at Harvard. Wine, the atheist rabbi who founded Humanistic Judaism, was my old friend and mentor. Absolutely brilliant man. The entire video (in several parts) is really worth watching, and is very much apropos this issue.

But check out the last bit in particular - say from 7:15 on. Quite funny and observant.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0pVcEedEJ0[/youtube]


I'm not one of the walking wounded either. I grew up Mormon and was taught some pretty silly shit, but I don't think that I was damaged by it. I'm an atheist simply because during my college years I lost my belief in God as described by the LDS Church. Then after further investigation and study of other religions I found them all to be unbelievable.

I know that I am a secularist because I don't think that government should be influenced by religion, but I'm not sure if I'm a secular humanist because it seems to me that it is like joining a club, and I don't like joining clubs.

Something I that am damn sure of is I will never identify with this atheist plus "movement". It's stupid idea with some very shrill and judgmental people promoting it.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#83  Postby Made of Stars » Aug 26, 2012 4:56 pm

I think we might need to start a list of Officially Approved Beliefs of Atheism+

To kick off, I'll chip in with vegetarianism.*



*Cue schism on whether eggs and dairy are vegetarian or not.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#84  Postby HomerJay » Aug 26, 2012 4:59 pm

Varangian wrote:If you by that mean "as opposed to the do-not-rock-the-boat atheists", then you are probably right. People here are vocal about their atheism, and many think that the deference shown to theism and theists by the "old atheists" is a thing of the past.


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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#85  Postby Made of Stars » Aug 26, 2012 5:01 pm

Zackly.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#86  Postby maiforpeace » Aug 26, 2012 5:03 pm

Oldskeptic wrote:

Something I that am damn sure of is I will never identify with this atheist plus "movement". It's stupid idea with some very shrill and judgmental people promoting it.


What exactly is stupid about the idea - aside from the "shrill and judgmental people promoting it".
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#87  Postby Oldskeptic » Aug 26, 2012 5:04 pm

Made of Stars wrote:I think we might need to start a list of Officially Approved Beliefs of Atheism+

To kick off, I'll chip in with vegetarianism.*

*Cue schism on whether eggs and dairy are vegetarian or not.


Who gets to officially approve/implement the rules is one of my concerns. Also are they actually trying to create an atheist religion that we constantly hear about?
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#88  Postby Oldskeptic » Aug 26, 2012 5:06 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote:

Something I that am damn sure of is I will never identify with this atheist plus "movement". It's stupid idea with some very shrill and judgmental people promoting it.


What exactly is stupid about the idea - aside from the "shrill and judgmental people promoting it".


Herding cats comes to mind.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#89  Postby Aern Rakesh » Aug 26, 2012 5:10 pm

Made of Stars wrote:I think we might need to start a list of Officially Approved Beliefs of Atheism+

To kick off, I'll chip in with vegetarianism.*



*Cue schism on whether eggs and dairy are vegetarian or not.


Wait, what part of vegetarianism is a 'belief'?

And does that mean if you are an atheist you'd have to be a vegetarian? :scratch:
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#90  Postby HomerJay » Aug 26, 2012 5:12 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote:

Something I that am damn sure of is I will never identify with this atheist plus "movement". It's stupid idea with some very shrill and judgmental people promoting it.


What exactly is stupid about the idea - aside from the "shrill and judgmental people promoting it".

It's history and purpose.

It has not been formed to tackle or address a particular issue, it's been formed simply to exclude unpopular people.

It's sectarian rather than purposeful.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#91  Postby maiforpeace » Aug 26, 2012 5:14 pm

Oldskeptic wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote:

Something I that am damn sure of is I will never identify with this atheist plus "movement". It's stupid idea with some very shrill and judgmental people promoting it.


What exactly is stupid about the idea - aside from the "shrill and judgmental people promoting it".


Herding cats comes to mind.


Fair enough, but what about cats that can be herded? And don't mind it? Does that automatically make them sheep?

Some realities, along the stated goals of Atheism+:

There is no way for an atheist movement to be inclusive of everyone.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheist women… and also be inclusive of people who publicly call women ugly, fat, sluts, whores, cunts, and worse; who persistently harass them; who deliberately invade their privacy and make their personal information public; and/or who routinely threaten them with grisly violence, rape, and death.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheists of color… and also be inclusive of people who think people of color stay in religion because they’re just not good at critical thinking, who blame crime on dark-skinned immigrants, who think victims of racial profiling deserved it because they looked like thugs, and/or who tell people of color, “You’re pretty smart for a…”.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of trans atheists… and also be inclusive of people who think trans people are mentally ill or freaks of nature.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheists who are mentally ill… and also be inclusive of people who think mental illness is just a failure of willpower.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of poor atheists… and also be inclusive of people whose basic attitude to systematic poverty and economic injustice is, “Screw you, Jack, I’ve got mine.”

Repeat, for many more marginalized groups that I don’t have time to list here.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/ ... r-atheism/
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#92  Postby maiforpeace » Aug 26, 2012 5:18 pm

HomerJay wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote:

Something I that am damn sure of is I will never identify with this atheist plus "movement". It's stupid idea with some very shrill and judgmental people promoting it.


What exactly is stupid about the idea - aside from the "shrill and judgmental people promoting it".

It's history and purpose.

It has not been formed to tackle or address a particular issue, it's been formed simply to exclude unpopular people.

It's sectarian rather than purposeful.


Maybe in the UK - but I disagree, I think it does have a purpose, albeit more regionally focused.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#93  Postby Imagination Theory » Aug 26, 2012 5:27 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote:

Something I that am damn sure of is I will never identify with this atheist plus "movement". It's stupid idea with some very shrill and judgmental people promoting it.


What exactly is stupid about the idea - aside from the "shrill and judgmental people promoting it".


Herding cats comes to mind.


Fair enough, but what about cats that can be herded? And don't mind it? Does that automatically make them sheep?

Some realities, along the stated goals of Atheism+:

There is no way for an atheist movement to be inclusive of everyone.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheist women… and also be inclusive of people who publicly call women ugly, fat, sluts, whores, cunts, and worse; who persistently harass them; who deliberately invade their privacy and make their personal information public; and/or who routinely threaten them with grisly violence, rape, and death.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheists of color… and also be inclusive of people who think people of color stay in religion because they’re just not good at critical thinking, who blame crime on dark-skinned immigrants, who think victims of racial profiling deserved it because they looked like thugs, and/or who tell people of color, “You’re pretty smart for a…”.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of trans atheists… and also be inclusive of people who think trans people are mentally ill or freaks of nature.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheists who are mentally ill… and also be inclusive of people who think mental illness is just a failure of willpower.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of poor atheists… and also be inclusive of people whose basic attitude to systematic poverty and economic injustice is, “Screw you, Jack, I’ve got mine.”

Repeat, for many more marginalized groups that I don’t have time to list here.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/ ... r-atheism/


What atheist movement are they even talking about? It would be nice if they said.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#94  Postby Regina » Aug 26, 2012 5:32 pm

And while we're at it: what on earth is a "trans atheist"?
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#95  Postby Emmeline » Aug 26, 2012 5:38 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Some realities, along the stated goals of Atheism+:

There is no way for an atheist movement to be inclusive of everyone.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheist women… and also be inclusive of people who publicly call women ugly, fat, sluts, whores, cunts, and worse; who persistently harass them; who deliberately invade their privacy and make their personal information public; and/or who routinely threaten them with grisly violence, rape, and death.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheists of color… and also be inclusive of people who think people of color stay in religion because they’re just not good at critical thinking, who blame crime on dark-skinned immigrants, who think victims of racial profiling deserved it because they looked like thugs, and/or who tell people of color, “You’re pretty smart for a…”.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of trans atheists… and also be inclusive of people who think trans people are mentally ill or freaks of nature.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheists who are mentally ill… and also be inclusive of people who think mental illness is just a failure of willpower.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of poor atheists… and also be inclusive of people whose basic attitude to systematic poverty and economic injustice is, “Screw you, Jack, I’ve got mine.”

Repeat, for many more marginalized groups that I don’t have time to list here.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/ ... r-atheism/


I'll add another one:

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of rational atheists who challenge ideas, ask for evidence, disagree with each other and demolish arguments … and also be inclusive of people who try to silence or exclude them by calling them "smug jerks" and "troglodytes" who aren't on their "side".
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#96  Postby maiforpeace » Aug 26, 2012 5:39 pm

Imagination Theory wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:

What exactly is stupid about the idea - aside from the "shrill and judgmental people promoting it".


Herding cats comes to mind.


Fair enough, but what about cats that can be herded? And don't mind it? Does that automatically make them sheep?

Some realities, along the stated goals of Atheism+:

There is no way for an atheist movement to be inclusive of everyone.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheist women… and also be inclusive of people who publicly call women ugly, fat, sluts, whores, cunts, and worse; who persistently harass them; who deliberately invade their privacy and make their personal information public; and/or who routinely threaten them with grisly violence, rape, and death.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheists of color… and also be inclusive of people who think people of color stay in religion because they’re just not good at critical thinking, who blame crime on dark-skinned immigrants, who think victims of racial profiling deserved it because they looked like thugs, and/or who tell people of color, “You’re pretty smart for a…”.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of trans atheists… and also be inclusive of people who think trans people are mentally ill or freaks of nature.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of atheists who are mentally ill… and also be inclusive of people who think mental illness is just a failure of willpower.

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of poor atheists… and also be inclusive of people whose basic attitude to systematic poverty and economic injustice is, “Screw you, Jack, I’ve got mine.”

Repeat, for many more marginalized groups that I don’t have time to list here.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/ ... r-atheism/


What atheist movement are they even talking about? It would be nice if they said.


The subject of the OP - Atheism+
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#97  Postby maiforpeace » Aug 26, 2012 5:41 pm

Emmeline wrote:

I'll add another one:

An atheist movement cannot be inclusive of rational atheists who challenge ideas, ask for evidence, disagree with each other and demolish arguments … and also be inclusive of people who try to silence or exclude them by calling them "smug jerks" and "troglodytes" who aren't on their "side".


I agree with that.

BTW, who said those things?
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#98  Postby quixotecoyote » Aug 26, 2012 5:43 pm

Regina wrote:And while we're at it: what on earth is a "trans atheist"?


transgendered atheist.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#99  Postby HomerJay » Aug 26, 2012 5:47 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:What exactly is stupid about the idea - aside from the "shrill and judgmental people promoting it".

It's history and purpose.

It has not been formed to tackle or address a particular issue, it's been formed simply to exclude unpopular people.

It's sectarian rather than purposeful.


Maybe in the UK - but I disagree, I think it does have a purpose, albeit more regionally focused.

But what is it's purpose? A New Politcal Movement?

If it was an NPM it would speak positively about it's program, surely?

I've seen enough of the splits in the Left to smell the difference a mile off, TBH put me off organised politics for life.

I'd certainly agree it sounds regional but even then how does it relate to American Atheists, started by a woman and run by her for 20 years? Or your NAP? Or even other left/liberal voices, or the Democrats?

It looks and walks like political neophytism, nothing interesting to say but said very loudly by people disconnected from history and politics, not steeped in them.
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Re: Atheism+ hits the MSM

#100  Postby amkerman » Aug 26, 2012 5:54 pm

HomerJay wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote:

Something I that am damn sure of is I will never identify with this atheist plus "movement". It's stupid idea with some very shrill and judgmental people promoting it.


What exactly is stupid about the idea - aside from the "shrill and judgmental people promoting it".

It's history and purpose.

It has not been formed to tackle or address a particular issue, it's been formed simply to exclude unpopular people.

It's sectarian rather than purposeful.


That's kinda the point of atheism in general, though, right? To hate people? This seems natural. If Atheism+ doesnt get people there will be a new atheist group waiting in the wings to call people who believe in God idiots. And then from there they will call even more people idiots that don't agree with them on other issues. Eventually some of them will hate so many people that they can't stand to live any more, and kill themselves so they don't have to suffer the idiocy any longer. I'm sorry about their loss, but I'm a non-non-non-non-non-stamp collecter, whatever that means, and our belief is that we don't not not not believe things, and that is all we share, so... We have a great name for it and talk about not not not not-stamp collecting, and spread the hate around to the stupid not not not stamp collectors. They are frauds.

I DONT COLLECT STAMPS.

I SWEAR.

... Sorry, :this: is what a troll would say.

Me? Sign me up. Atheism+, "new atheism", secular humanism, national atheist party. Tell me what to think, I want in. Saying I don't believe in God is just step 1, but there is soo much more to it than that. Also, I like Mexican food. "Atheism +++##^%€£+". Beat that, atheism+.

What were they thinking?

We are better than them. It's not even close...

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