Fallible wrote:I don't really care. You don't want to identify yourself as an atheist. All right. So?

zulumoose wrote:Neither the question nor the response has to be smug, its all down to tone and body language. Believe it or not the last time I had this conversation it was at a job interview, which ended with the statement, "good luck believing in nothing" with a dismissive gesture. I think my quick response saved the day, since I am still working there a year later.

ScholasticSpastic wrote:

DarthHelmet86 wrote:I can understand that feeling. I would like more people who are in my opinion atheists to use the label so that as a group we are larger. But on the singular interaction level I wouldn't want someone to take on a label they don't feel safe or happy using.

I agree that people who would feel unsafe or unhappy should not be pressured to take on the label. But choosing not to apply the label because you've got "vague spiritual, irrational tendencies" doesn't fall under that. Everybody has those because we are irrational monkey-people.

I also object to people choosing not to apply the label to themselves because "that's not who I am." No shit. Neither am I heterosexual in the sense that I define myself by my heterosexuality. Neither am I white because I define myself by my skin color. Neither is someone else gay because they define themselves by their homosexuality. A label, no matter how apt, is never who anyone is. Humans are wonderfully complex animals which will never be adequately defined by any label other than "human" and that only tautologically. In fact, the difference between who we are and what we believe is the basis for every civil argument people engage in. If people were their beliefs, all arguments would be ad hominem.

ScholasticSpastic wrote::mrgreen: Well, damn. Now I'm going to have to go pick some other fight.

Seriously, though, in my non-silico life, gently trying to get atheists I know to feel comfortable coming out as atheists (if it's safe and they can be happy) has become something of a hobby horse for me. Seven percent of USAians polled say they don't believe in a god or universal spirit, yet only 2.4% identify as atheists. On top of that, 14% of those who identify as atheists when polled also say they believe in a god or universal spirit. This tells me that it is imperative that we broaden the conversational base with respect to atheism. There are a lot of atheists out there who either don't know they're atheists or have bought into the connotations created by theists with respect to atheism.

Seven percent would be as powerful a constituency, if given voice, as the one which has recently won all the gay rights victories. I feel that we could use that. At the very least, we need to fight for atheism to become a protected class- and not by defining it as a religion, which is the current work-around.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... -atheists/

[Edited to fix a statistic and to include a link.]

Mac_Guffin wrote:
But I pray sometimes in hope that a deity can sense it. Can one still be an atheist and entertain that thought?

laklak wrote:Well, you're still young, give it time. I realize that sounds condescending but it's honestly not meant that way. I find the older I get the less of a fuck I give about anyone else's opinion of me, but I also realize that has something to do with being retired and no longer beholden to anyone for a paycheck. Figuring out "what am I" or "who am I" is a long, involved process. Who I was at age 27 bears only a slight similarity to who I am at 61, and I've no doubt my 80 year old self will look back on the 2015 version and think "jesus, what a wanker". So my advice (FWIW) - don't sweat it. You are who you are, and you don't owe anyone an explanation. Just keep on chooglin', do what feels right, and damn those fucking torpedoes.

ScholasticSpastic wrote:

Mac_Guffin wrote:
But I pray sometimes in hope that a deity can sense it. Can one still be an atheist and entertain that thought?

If you believe that a deity can sense it, you're not an atheist. If you hope, but don't believe, that a deity can sense it, you are an atheist.

I pray over meals almost every day. Not because I hope or believe, but simply because I'm married to a theist. She understands that there is no belief there on my part and, since I have no belief in prayer, I don't actually mind doing it- just so long as everyone around me at the time understands it's prayer without belief behind it. And the latter point, that everyone needs to understand I've no belief, is really out of courtesy for any participants/spectators more than anything else. I try to avoid lying, even by implication, whenever possible.

Mac_Guffin wrote:....
It's more like I don't give a shit, but when I say I'm agnostic to atheists, I sometimes get told, "I'm agnostic too, but I'm also an atheist. You are either an atheist or theist." ....

MacIver wrote:Is there a term for someone who switches from agnostic-atheist to agnostic-theist?

Mac_Guffin wrote:
Even when I believed, I hated praying before meals lol. It seemed so passionless and for show.
You doing it as an atheist doesn't seem any more hollow.

Mac_Guffin wrote:

Fallible wrote:I don't really care. You don't want to identify yourself as an atheist. All right. So?

You don't have to lol.
I'm just wondering what I am considered to be.

ScholasticSpastic wrote:

Mac_Guffin wrote:....
It's more like I don't give a shit, but when I say I'm agnostic to atheists, I sometimes get told, "I'm agnostic too, but I'm also an atheist. You are either an atheist or theist." ....

Given the meanings of those words, it's a fair cop. Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Theism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Atheism and theism are mutually exclusive. It's not about personal understanding and it's not about personal conviction. It's simply about what words mean.

Of course, you can decide that words mean whatever you like, but then you don't get to have the sad feel-bads when people don't understand your words.

Mac_Guffin wrote:
I don't get the sad feel-bads lol...

but it's kind of annoying because I don't have any consistent position and people want clarity. I don't blame them, but I don't know what to say. I guess like I said in another post, I should say I'm agnostic, and if people ask if I'm an agnostic atheist or theist, I will just say I go back and forth... but is there an issue with that too? lol

Fallible wrote:

Mac_Guffin wrote:

Fallible wrote:I don't really care. You don't want to identify yourself as an atheist. All right. So?

You don't have to lol.
I'm just wondering what I am considered to be.

Why? Most people are going to tell you you sound like an atheist. But why would you care, if as you say you try to avoid labels?

ScholasticSpastic wrote:

Mac_Guffin wrote:
I don't get the sad feel-bads lol...

Good. That would be sad.

but it's kind of annoying because I don't have any consistent position and people want clarity. I don't blame them, but I don't know what to say. I guess like I said in another post, I should say I'm agnostic, and if people ask if I'm an agnostic atheist or theist, I will just say I go back and forth... but is there an issue with that too? lol

If you're going back and forth in terms of belief, you might consider telling people something like, "Today I'm an atheist." or "Today I'm a theist." If they're the sort of ass who might insist that our beliefs don't change over the course of a lifetime... well, then I encourage you to say something not very nice to them.

MacIver wrote:Is there a term for someone who switches from agnostic-atheist to agnostic-theist?

John Platko wrote:

MacIver wrote:Is there a term for someone who switches from agnostic-atheist to agnostic-theist?

Yes: "heading in the right direction"

Mac_Guffin wrote:What am I?