Darkchilde wrote:It seems that we are at an impasse, NeedAnswers.

Your basic claim is that you think aliens are visiting Earth, but you refuse to provide evidence. In other words, you want us to believe, to have faith that aliens are visiting Earth without even a shred of evidence. If you really had evidence, then you would provide it.

I don't have anything else to say, If you ever decide to provide evidence of aliens, I will examine it with an open mind. But as I said, youtube videos, blurry photos and anecdotal evidence is not acceptable.

We are at an impasse because you are simply wrong, you keep changing what I say and not paying attention to how I'm phrasing what I say. This isn't a debate, it's a discussion. If you want to debate with me, that's another story. Please hear me out on this, one final time.

If I tell you that I believe or think something, I am not making a claim. I am merely saying that I am convinced. I think that the ToE is true because I have been convinced of that. Am I qualified to prove that the ToE is indeed completely reliable? Hell no! I can do my best to show you why I am convinced of it though.

Same with aliens visiting Earth. Am I qualified to prove to you something which I've repeatedly said I can't do? No. Am I qualified to say that I've visited sites and gathered information and done the field work? No, I haven't done all of those things. Can I show you why I think aliens are visiting Earth? I tried to do that, but you dismissed it because you're going at this entirely the wrong way.

NeedAnswers wrote:
Same with aliens visiting Earth. Am I qualified to prove to you something which I've repeatedly said I can't do? No. Am I qualified to say that I've visited sites and gathered information and done the field work? No, I haven't done all of those things. Can I show you why I think aliens are visiting Earth? I tried to do that, but you dismissed it because you're going at this entirely the wrong way.

And what is the right way? Accepting anecdotal evidence and blurry photos? Sorry, no can do. Either it is proper scientific evidence, or I will not accept it.

As for ToE, the evidence is all around you. From popular science books on evolution, to textbooks to a lot more than conspiracy sites. Evolution has been put to the test time and again, and has never been disproved, on the contrary more evidence every day, points out to Evolution being true. You do not need to be a research scientist to accept evolution.

If we accepted anecdotal evidence, then, religion, homeopathy, crystal healing, astrology is true. If we accepted your kind of evidence, then we would still be in the Dark Ages.

Darkchilde wrote:

NeedAnswers wrote:
Same with aliens visiting Earth. Am I qualified to prove to you something which I've repeatedly said I can't do? No. Am I qualified to say that I've visited sites and gathered information and done the field work? No, I haven't done all of those things. Can I show you why I think aliens are visiting Earth? I tried to do that, but you dismissed it because you're going at this entirely the wrong way.

And what is the right way? Accepting anecdotal evidence and blurry photos? Sorry, no can do. Either it is proper scientific evidence, or I will not accept it.

As for ToE, the evidence is all around you. From popular science books on evolution, to textbooks to a lot more than conspiracy sites. Evolution has been put to the test time and again, and has never been disproved, on the contrary more evidence every day, points out to Evolution being true. You do not need to be a research scientist to accept evolution.

If we accepted anecdotal evidence, then, religion, homeopathy, crystal healing, astrology is true. If we accepted your kind of evidence, then we would still be in the Dark Ages.

No there's a huge difference with that. We are observing something for which there is currently no official explanation. Religion and crystal healing don't appear to have any real physical or observable things going on. That's why I'm apprehensive when it comes to abduction stories. I would never believe them without some sort of evidence that it existed outside of someone's head. If it happened to me, I would constantly test myself to check and see if what I observed held up to reality. Maybe I was dreaming. Was I tired? If so I might have just been dreaming, and I'll hold it in those regards.

With aliens it's totally different. You have a similar thing being observed all over the world for generations, for centuries! It even occurs in ancient cave drawings and in artwork from all different periods of time. Only now are we really in a position to study these things and so far our science hasn't progressed to the point where we can observe these things properly. The government and military don't claim them, but still observe them as craft.

How about we see just how far you're willing to go?

Do you believe that some UFO's can be craft? I mean it's well known that some people mistake jets for aliens

But what I am saying is that from no official explanation to aliens visiting Earth is a huge leap. An unexplained phenomenon is not automatically aliens; it is a phenomenon that currently we cannot explain due to lack of data, or maybe it is something our current theories do not take into account, it might be of Earthly origin it might be anything.

As for the cave drawings, and similar no, I don't accept such as evidence. The problem is that these people may have been seen anything that can be explained as a natural phenomenon, and drew an abstract representation of those. Also, a lot of ancient tribes, and some even today, used hallucinogenic compounds for their so-called spirit journeys and such. Those primitive people explained everything with gods and spirits, and so that evidence is not evidence of any aliens, just evidence of how some cultures viewed phenomena like lightning for example, that they could not explain. Ancient Greeks believed that lightning was thrown by Zeus when he was angry...

As for the military, there is no actual evidence they have observed such craft. As Jumbo said, there is also equipment failure, and a number of things that could explain those reports. A UFO is so called, not because it is evidence of aliens, but because it is evidence of something unexplained.

I agree with you on the abduction. If it were me, I would try to get a piece of equipment or some cells or something to prove my point. And if aliens are so advanced, they would not need to abduct people, they would only need some DNA samples, or some corpse and these are not that difficult to find...

Darkchilde wrote:But what I am saying is that from no official explanation to aliens visiting Earth is a huge leap. An unexplained phenomenon is not automatically aliens; it is a phenomenon that currently we cannot explain due to lack of data, or maybe it is something our current theories do not take into account, it might be of Earthly origin it might be anything.

As for the cave drawings, and similar no, I don't accept such as evidence. The problem is that these people may have been seen anything that can be explained as a natural phenomenon, and drew an abstract representation of those. Also, a lot of ancient tribes, and some even today, used hallucinogenic compounds for their so-called spirit journeys and such. Those primitive people explained everything with gods and spirits, and so that evidence is not evidence of any aliens, just evidence of how some cultures viewed phenomena like lightning for example, that they could not explain. Ancient Greeks believed that lightning was thrown by Zeus when he was angry...

As for the military, there is no actual evidence they have observed such craft. As Jumbo said, there is also equipment failure, and a number of things that could explain those reports. A UFO is so called, not because it is evidence of aliens, but because it is evidence of something unexplained.

I agree with you on the abduction. If it were me, I would try to get a piece of equipment or some cells or something to prove my point. And if aliens are so advanced, they would not need to abduct people, they would only need some DNA samples, or some corpse and these are not that difficult to find...

The military has already announced that they have found UFO's. They just haven't announced what they are, and they often change their stories about what they were doing that day. The military has already stated that they deem UFO's to be something of importance, but all investigations done by the military have turned up evidence which they are not comfortable sharing with the public (which is why many of their documents are blacked out even in freedom of information requests). For a while, even the US government contemplated on aliens and even came to some interesting conclusions before turning tail and keeping all their information private.

The reason why we have come to aliens is:

A. The probability of aliens existing is high.
B. If they exist and are intelligent, some of them must be more intelligent than us.
C. What we are observing does not fit in with anything we have seen on Earth.
D. Some individuals claim to have seen aliens and worked with alien spacecraft.
E. It is observed all over the world, even in "uncivilized" countries.
F. The pictures I was talking about in ancient times directly resemble what we are observing today.
G. Almost all other explanations have been ruled out.

A UFO is explained, the problem is that some people won't take the leap forward and theorize that it could be aliens for some reason. Despite my A-G some people still think it's unreasonable. There are other reasons than the ones that I provided too!

In some abduction cases, some strange pieces of metal are found in patients. There seems to be no inflammatory response to these bits of metal which for all intents and purposes should be acting like any other piece of shrapnel. There are many cases of this.

I agree with point A. All scientific evidence points to that direction; that there is a high probability that life has evolved in other places in the Universe, maybe in our own back yard, like Europa for example.
I disagree with point B: If they are intelligent, there is no reason that they must be more intelligent than us. They may be, or they may be not. I don't know, and cannot make that judgment.
I sort of agree with point C: what we are observing does not fit with our current understanding, because of lack of data, because our current theories do not account for it, because we still have a lot to learn. There are so many things we do not know, so I am not taking a leap of faith and call it aliens. Just unexplained for the moment.
Point D: anecdotal evidence. Some individuals claim... Nothing new here.
Point E: yes unexplained phenomena are observed all over the world. Nothing new here.
Point F: still there are no actual pictures just artist's depiction of them, and could be anything. Not evidence. A lot of people having hallucinations of seeing the virgin Mary, Jesus and a lot of other mythological creatures. And depicting them, as well. So, not evidence.
Point G: I disagree. Not everything has been ruled out. In all of the unexplained cases, a lot of data has not been compiled, and we do not have enough evidence...

What abduction cases? Have any evidence of those strange pieces of metal? Or it could be just something that is rare but can be found on Earth?

You are taking a leap of faith here.

NeedAnswers wrote:
The military has already announced that they have found UFO's.

Link please?

Darkchilde wrote:I agree with point A. All scientific evidence points to that direction; that there is a high probability that life has evolved in other places in the Universe, maybe in our own back yard, like Europa for example.
I disagree with point B: If they are intelligent, there is no reason that they must be more intelligent than us. They may be, or they may be not. I don't know, and cannot make that judgment.
I sort of agree with point C: what we are observing does not fit with our current understanding, because of lack of data, because our current theories do not account for it, because we still have a lot to learn. There are so many things we do not know, so I am not taking a leap of faith and call it aliens. Just unexplained for the moment.
Point D: anecdotal evidence. Some individuals claim... Nothing new here.
Point E: yes unexplained phenomena are observed all over the world. Nothing new here.
Point F: still there are no actual pictures just artist's depiction of them, and could be anything. Not evidence. A lot of people having hallucinations of seeing the virgin Mary, Jesus and a lot of other mythological creatures. And depicting them, as well. So, not evidence.
Point G: I disagree. Not everything has been ruled out. In all of the unexplained cases, a lot of data has not been compiled, and we do not have enough evidence...

What abduction cases? Have any evidence of those strange pieces of metal? Or it could be just something that is rare but can be found on Earth?

You are taking a leap of faith here.

B. Not all of them have to be more intelligent than us, only some of them have to be. Naturally i don't think we would be at the top of the cosmic ladder.

C. But why is it that you would rule out aliens? I only claim that I think it's aliens and I provide some evidence for why I think so, but you dispute that.

D. It might be anecdotal, but it's some very high-up in government people. I mean there are dozens of them coming out, but people keep acting like nobody is saying anything because they're not aware of it.

E. Not just unexplained, but very similar UFO experiences are observed all over the world, meaning it's not just related to one country. Many say that aliens are the fairies of the late 20th and early 21st centuries.

F. Yes, you're right but this is different. Mary and Jesus are constructs that have lasted a long time (not saying they aren't real, but people are looking for them in buttered toast). With aliens and UFO's, nobody was really talking about that stuff too much. They might have relegated them to "Gods" but the thing is that they still take the same shape, so we have even more evidence that people aren't just seeing things or relating them to what they've seen in movies and all that.

G. In many cases everything else has been ruled out. Not all of them, but a significant portion nonetheless.

BlackBart wrote:

NeedAnswers wrote:
The military has already announced that they have found UFO's.

Link please?

Sure, here you go. I gave a few of them.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/wor ... 33352.html

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/43333/

http://www.rense.com/general52/deff.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/airmen ... d=11738715

Point B. All I disagreed with is your usage of the term "must be more intelligent". And, I think we agree, that we do not know.

Point C. I don't rule out that it could be aliens. I just think, like many other do, that it is a remote possibility. In that case, I do want extraordinary evidence because I consider the claim as extraordinary. Is it a possibility? Yes, but a very remote one, and I want to be certain that it is not something of more Earthly origin or some natural phenomenon that we have not accounted for, or something that can be easily explained.

Point D. I don't care who it is. It is still anecdotal evidence, and, as I said, I do not accept. I accept that something probably happened to those people, and that they may have been hallucinating or they may want to hide a traumatic experience... As for the similarity in experiences, it just takes one person to read an account, and then that account gets stuck in his head, etc. etc. It's similar with the abduction cases. [Still waiting for the evidence on those metal pieces.]

Point E. Yes, but that can be a natural phenomenon. An atmospheric phenomenon. Or something related to our technology, and similar. I cannot say that it is aliens right away. We all have similar experiences with gravity. If it is a natural phenomenon, it is expected to be similar in all parts of the world, or at least in most parts of the world given similar conditions.

Point F. How is this different? The similarity in shapes is easily explained, as the human mind is looking for order and patterns, And shapes, like a circle or a triangle (and most of them are equilateral triangles), are seen as ordered patterns by our brain. A lot of times the brain is confused from simple things. We see patterns where there are none, it is the way our brain is hardwired.

Point G. I disagree. Not everything has been ruled out. Because there are a lot of things we do not yet know and we do not yet understand. What we can say, is that we have ruled out all the possibilities we can think of up to now, or have experience with up to now. What if some of those ruled out, turn out to be a natural phenomenon, that we were unaware of before?

The military has announced that they have unexplained phenomena.

As I said, I cannot rule out the possibility that it may be aliens; I never did. However, as I said, even in the most bizarre cases, it does not rule out other possibilities. I remain highly skeptical of aliens visiting the Earth, also because of the limitations inherent in the universe, like the great distances, and the speed of light. True, there may be a way around those, but until I see something more concrete, something that cannot be mistaken for anything else but aliens, I will remain highly skeptical of aliens.

I am one of those people, that would jump at the opportunity to travel even in one of the planets in our Solar System. I am one of those people who would jump at the opportunity of traveling anywhere in the Universe, and seeing close up all the wonders that there are there.

SURGEON TELLS FIRST RESULTS OF IMPLANT ANALYSIS
Sims, Leir Say They Might
Have Hard Evidence of Abduction

[This story summarizes information presented by hypnotherapist Derrel Sims and physician Roger Leir at a public meeting in Thousand Oaks, California on February 23, 1996, sponsored by the local chapter of MUFON (the Mutual UFO Network).

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/iscni24.html


Another article:
http://www.noufors.com/physical_evidenc ... cases.html

Darkchilde wrote: Yes, but that can be a natural phenomenon. An atmospheric phenomenon. Or something related to our technology, and similar. I cannot say that it is aliens right away. We all have similar experiences with gravity. If it is a natural phenomenon, it is expected to be similar in all parts of the world, or at least in most parts of the world given similar conditions.

Here is a link to information about UFO's that have left physical traces:
http://www.noufors.com/ufo_physical_traces.html

Darkchilde wrote:Point D. I don't care who it is. It is still anecdotal evidence, and, as I said, I do not accept. I accept that something probably happened to those people, and that they may have been hallucinating or they may want to hide a traumatic experience... As for the similarity in experiences, it just takes one person to read an account, and then that account gets stuck in his head, etc. etc. It's similar with the abduction cases.

But seriously, nuclear weapons getting shut down all over the world while in the presence of UFO's doesn't impress you? I mean yes it's somewhat anecdotal they're not going to give you the codes and explain the details of the complex, you're not going to get a map of the building and pictures and a doctor who has examined the site and all that. If that's really what you need in order to prove that anything is for real, then I applaud you for your patience. We created the machines that give us the information we want, anything not given from a machine is essentially anecdotal ("I gathered this information" entails the expert used their own faulty senses to gather information. Otherwise you'd have to use a machine and then even then how do you know you are reading it correctly? Your eyes might be deceiving you.)

Remember, we're talking about Colonels, Lieutenant Colonels, and other high ranking members of the armed forces here. It is paramount to a police officer giving his account of what happened at a crime scene and having other officers around to corroborate his or her story. How likely are you to believe that the events happened the way it was reported?

Darkchilde wrote: I disagree. Not everything has been ruled out. Because there are a lot of things we do not yet know and we do not yet understand. What we can say, is that we have ruled out all the possibilities we can think of up to now, or have experience with up to now. What if some of those ruled out, turn out to be a natural phenomenon, that we were unaware of before?

This and other comments tells me that aliens are a far cry from reality for you. However, they're really just not for me. The reason why you don't see it as a particularly good chance of explaining what we observe is because you don't think it's likely in the first place, whilst I do think it is very likely.

Darkchilde wrote: I remain highly skeptical of aliens visiting the Earth, also because of the limitations inherent in the universe, like the great distances, and the speed of light. True, there may be a way around those, but until I see something more concrete, something that cannot be mistaken for anything else but aliens, I will remain highly skeptical of aliens.

The limitations you speak of are human limitations. So far as we now know, the speed of light is as fast as anything can physically travel through anything, vacuum, water, earth, metals, etc. However, we have theoretic particles such as the Tachyon and we know that space and time work like a piece of fabric which can be molded in different ways based on the mass of an object. We don't have the science yet to truly tell us how fast something can go, or if we can teleport materials over distances faster than the speed of light. You're right to say that we don't know. However, when one says that it might be aliens and one can provide evidence in many different forms that some type of unknown craft are visiting places on planet earth and then tearing out at speeds that rival our fastest technology I think that the skeptics should ask questions and maintain a healthy discussion but not become "prove it"-style debunkers.

We can't demonstrate that there are aliens flying aboard these ships right now. One day that might be possible. Yet, the overwhelming evidence supports the claims that:

A. Many UFO's are actual craft. They're not all just swamp gas and weather balloons. The name in itself is evidence that we are talking about physical objects.
B. No one on Earth can take credit for these craft, they do things that our technology isn't capable of doing yet.
C. UFO's have been viewed all over the world and by every culture for a long time, and the symbolism has remained roughly the same over all this time. They are drawing what they observe, just like people now are reporting and categorizing what they see, not just what they feel.
D. The US government and other world governments have been less than transparent about their dealings with UFO's. It has been clear that elements within the government wish to cover things up and silence those who know what they're talking about. It's also clear that they want to misinform the public about UFO's because they feel threatened by them (powerless against them).

Darkchilde wrote:I am one of those people, that would jump at the opportunity to travel even in one of the planets in our Solar System. I am one of those people who would jump at the opportunity of traveling anywhere in the Universe, and seeing close up all the wonders that there are there.

I'm glad to know that the interest is there, and I encourage you to dig a little deeper into all of this. Even if it was not aliens, what if our government or someone in the world had the technology to travel as fast and as freely as some of the UFO's we've heard of? Wouldn't that be magnificent too? Cheers to us for our appreciate of the universe we live in!

I feel that it's aliens partially because I don't feel like humans on Earth are capable of these feats yet. So when someone feels that aliens are an extraordinary claim, I feel that blaming these things on humans is equally extraordinary considering our current limitations.

NeedAnswers wrote:SURGEON TELLS FIRST RESULTS OF IMPLANT ANALYSIS
Sims, Leir Say They Might
Have Hard Evidence of Abduction

[This story summarizes information presented by hypnotherapist Derrel Sims and physician Roger Leir at a public meeting in Thousand Oaks, California on February 23, 1996, sponsored by the local chapter of MUFON (the Mutual UFO Network).

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/iscni24.html


Another article:
http://www.noufors.com/physical_evidenc ... cases.html

Not acceptable. UFO conspiracy sites are not acceptable. Do you have a link to an analysis of those pieces of metal from a well respected lab?

NeedAnswers wrote:

Darkchilde wrote: Yes, but that can be a natural phenomenon. An atmospheric phenomenon. Or something related to our technology, and similar. I cannot say that it is aliens right away. We all have similar experiences with gravity. If it is a natural phenomenon, it is expected to be similar in all parts of the world, or at least in most parts of the world given similar conditions.

Here is a link to information about UFO's that have left physical traces:
http://www.noufors.com/ufo_physical_traces.html

Again, UFO conspiracy sites, not reliable.

NeedAnswers wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:Point D. I don't care who it is. It is still anecdotal evidence, and, as I said, I do not accept. I accept that something probably happened to those people, and that they may have been hallucinating or they may want to hide a traumatic experience... As for the similarity in experiences, it just takes one person to read an account, and then that account gets stuck in his head, etc. etc. It's similar with the abduction cases.

But seriously, nuclear weapons getting shut down all over the world while in the presence of UFO's doesn't impress you? I mean yes it's somewhat anecdotal they're not going to give you the codes and explain the details of the complex, you're not going to get a map of the building and pictures and a doctor who has examined the site and all that. If that's really what you need in order to prove that anything is for real, then I applaud you for your patience. We created the machines that give us the information we want, anything not given from a machine is essentially anecdotal ("I gathered this information" entails the expert used their own faulty senses to gather information. Otherwise you'd have to use a machine and then even then how do you know you are reading it correctly? Your eyes might be deceiving you.)

Remember, we're talking about Colonels, Lieutenant Colonels, and other high ranking members of the armed forces here. It is paramount to a police officer giving his account of what happened at a crime scene and having other officers around to corroborate his or her story. How likely are you to believe that the events happened the way it was reported?

What nuclear sites being shut down? More anecdotal evidence?

NeedAnswers wrote:

Darkchilde wrote: I disagree. Not everything has been ruled out. Because there are a lot of things we do not yet know and we do not yet understand. What we can say, is that we have ruled out all the possibilities we can think of up to now, or have experience with up to now. What if some of those ruled out, turn out to be a natural phenomenon, that we were unaware of before?

This and other comments tells me that aliens are a far cry from reality for you. However, they're really just not for me. The reason why you don't see it as a particularly good chance of explaining what we observe is because you don't think it's likely in the first place, whilst I do think it is very likely.

Well we agree on this point.

NeedAnswers wrote:

Darkchilde wrote: I remain highly skeptical of aliens visiting the Earth, also because of the limitations inherent in the universe, like the great distances, and the speed of light. True, there may be a way around those, but until I see something more concrete, something that cannot be mistaken for anything else but aliens, I will remain highly skeptical of aliens.

The limitations you speak of are human limitations. So far as we now know, the speed of light is as fast as anything can physically travel through anything, vacuum, water, earth, metals, etc. However, we have theoretic particles such as the Tachyon and we know that space and time work like a piece of fabric which can be molded in different ways based on the mass of an object. We don't have the science yet to truly tell us how fast something can go, or if we can teleport materials over distances faster than the speed of light. You're right to say that we don't know. However, when one says that it might be aliens and one can provide evidence in many different forms that some type of unknown craft are visiting places on planet earth and then tearing out at speeds that rival our fastest technology I think that the skeptics should ask questions and maintain a healthy discussion but not become "prove it"-style debunkers.

The limitations I speak of are knowledge limitations. There is no scientific evidence of aliens. I cannot accept anecdotal evidence, I cannot accept blurry photos and youtube videos, or biased sites. Okay, I don't think that teleportation will ever be achieved or can be achieved. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is a major limitation, and it is a universal limitation. Unless you can know both the momentum and position of a particle at a certain point in time with 100% accuracy, teleportation will remain just a dream.

NeedAnswers wrote:
We can't demonstrate that there are aliens flying aboard these ships right now. One day that might be possible. Yet, the overwhelming evidence supports the claims that:

A. Many UFO's are actual craft. They're not all just swamp gas and weather balloons. The name in itself is evidence that we are talking about physical objects.
B. No one on Earth can take credit for these craft, they do things that our technology isn't capable of doing yet.
C. UFO's have been viewed all over the world and by every culture for a long time, and the symbolism has remained roughly the same over all this time. They are drawing what they observe, just like people now are reporting and categorizing what they see, not just what they feel.
D. The US government and other world governments have been less than transparent about their dealings with UFO's. It has been clear that elements within the government wish to cover things up and silence those who know what they're talking about. It's also clear that they want to misinform the public about UFO's because they feel threatened by them (powerless against them).

If you cannot demonstrate that it is alien crafts and similar, then why do you accept such a conclusion? You are telling me that you have no real actual scientific evidence of aliens visiting Earth, but that you accept it as real because of anecdotal evidence.

A. The name means nothing. A number of UFOs have been identified also as natural phenomena. Just because some people have mistaken them for flying objects, doesn't mean that they are always objects. It's just a name that has come to signify all unexplained phenomena in the sky that may be anything.

B. Just because no one on Earth has taken credit for them, it doesn;t mean that it is aliens. Could be meteorites, could be a phenomenon. It does not tell me anything.

C. Again I have explained before about all those so-called ancient sightings.

D. Okay, this is the conspiracy part.

NeedAnswers wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:I am one of those people, that would jump at the opportunity to travel even in one of the planets in our Solar System. I am one of those people who would jump at the opportunity of traveling anywhere in the Universe, and seeing close up all the wonders that there are there.

I'm glad to know that the interest is there, and I encourage you to dig a little deeper into all of this. Even if it was not aliens, what if our government or someone in the world had the technology to travel as fast and as freely as some of the UFO's we've heard of? Wouldn't that be magnificent too? Cheers to us for our appreciate of the universe we live in!

I feel that it's aliens partially because I don't feel like humans on Earth are capable of these feats yet. So when someone feels that aliens are an extraordinary claim, I feel that blaming these things on humans is equally extraordinary considering our current limitations.

And I require more evidence to accept the aliens visiting Earth conclusion. Nothing here has yet convinced me. It's all anecdotal evidence, and nothing that has only that explanation.

You cannot just say you won't accept evidence from a UFO conspiracy site. That is paramount to saying "I won't accept evolution because it's on a site that talks about how evolution is a good theory." Give me a break dark, open your mind. If you really don't believe that aliens are real, spending some time on a conspiracy website isn't going to hurt you at all now is it?

I'm not going to accept your post the way it is right now. Please look into it, do it for yourself if not for my sake or the sake of this discussion. I promise aliens aren't going to abduct you for researching this.

Okay you want me to break it down from the UFO sites?

Here it is:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/iscni24.html

There is nothing more than some surgeon said this or that. As I said, where is the lab analysis of the piece of metal? Without said analysis, it is again anecdotal evidence.

http://www.noufors.com/physical_evidence_in_alien_abduction_cases.html

Again, where is the analysis from a lab? Lab exams of the patients, and other data? The unusual mark photo can be from a vaccine. My sister has a similar mark from a vaccine, with those dark points. Her dark points form a circle, and it is filled with those dark points as well.

http://www.noufors.com/ufo_physical_traces.html

Again photos of some sites. Where is the evidence? Where is the analysis of the ground? Where is the proper investigation, with lab analysis, measurements, and the like? Like in an official report from a University or a lab or something similar?

See, in all three of the above there is a lot missing. There is no actual data.

Okay fine, those sites may not provide you with what you're looking for. However, the honest skeptic might type some of those locations and dates into google and obtain much better results than what is provided on just those websites.

I'm purposely providing you with springboard websites because I'm expecting that you might grow curious about this and want to know more. However, I'll do some of the work for you this one time

Darkchilde wrote:http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/iscni24.html

There is nothing more than some surgeon said this or that. As I said, where is the lab analysis of the piece of metal? Without said analysis, it is again anecdotal evidence.

To borrow from a member here who is on another website:

http://www.alienscalpel.com/wp-content/ ... awData.pdf
http://www.alienscalpel.com/wp-content/ ... 110609.pdf

This would seem to be what you are looking for in terms of the lab analysis.

Darkchilde wrote:
http://www.noufors.com/physical_evidenc ... cases.html

Again, where is the analysis from a lab? Lab exams of the patients, and other data? The unusual mark photo can be from a vaccine. My sister has a similar mark from a vaccine, with those dark points. Her dark points form a circle, and it is filled with those dark points as well.

The unusual mark didn't impress me, but if a doctor says them removed this metal and then took pictures of it, come on. What you are really saying here is that you don't trust people at all to tell you what they are observing, and you don't even trust experts to observe things correctly. What is the lab analysis really going to tell you? I hope you have something interesting to say about the links I posted above.

Darkchilde wrote:http://www.noufors.com/ufo_physical_traces.html

Again photos of some sites. Where is the evidence? Where is the analysis of the ground? Where is the proper investigation, with lab analysis, measurements, and the like? Like in an official report from a University or a lab or something similar?

Well I'll try to find you something. Here's some articles about the Falcon Lake site:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ufo/ ... .01-e.html

This is a good one
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case376.htm

Another case:
http://www.angelfire.com/mo/cptr/roaringriver.html

supporting site
http://www.ufocasebook.com/roaringriver.html

Another case:
http://ufos.about.com/od/ufocrashes/p/ubatuba.htm

NeedAnswers wrote:Okay fine, those sites may not provide you with what you're looking for. However, the honest skeptic might type some of those locations and dates into google and obtain much better results than what is provided on just those websites.

I'm purposely providing you with springboard websites because I'm expecting that you might grow curious about this and want to know more. However, I'll do some of the work for you this one time

Darkchilde wrote:http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/iscni24.html

There is nothing more than some surgeon said this or that. As I said, where is the lab analysis of the piece of metal? Without said analysis, it is again anecdotal evidence.

To borrow from a member here who is on another website:

http://www.alienscalpel.com/wp-content/ ... awData.pdf
http://www.alienscalpel.com/wp-content/ ... 110609.pdf

This would seem to be what you are looking for in terms of the lab analysis.

This is a lab analysis but no report. All the elements are elements found on Earth, and used in various industries. There are a lot of alloys that we use. Anything to indicate that this is something that cannot be found in an industry or some lab? I don't know all the alloys that are used, so this could be some metal shrapnel from some industrial site, or similar.

NeedAnswers wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:
http://www.noufors.com/physical_evidenc ... cases.html

Again, where is the analysis from a lab? Lab exams of the patients, and other data? The unusual mark photo can be from a vaccine. My sister has a similar mark from a vaccine, with those dark points. Her dark points form a circle, and it is filled with those dark points as well.

The unusual mark didn't impress me, but if a doctor says them removed this metal and then took pictures of it, come on. What you are really saying here is that you don't trust people at all to tell you what they are observing, and you don't even trust experts to observe things correctly. What is the lab analysis really going to tell you? I hope you have something interesting to say about the links I posted above.

Yes, the report is missing. A report which says that this is an element or an alloy that cannot possibly be found on Earth.

NeedAnswers wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:http://www.noufors.com/ufo_physical_traces.html

Again photos of some sites. Where is the evidence? Where is the analysis of the ground? Where is the proper investigation, with lab analysis, measurements, and the like? Like in an official report from a University or a lab or something similar?

Well I'll try to find you something. Here's some articles about the Falcon Lake site:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ufo/ ... .01-e.html

This is a good one
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case376.htm

Another case:
http://www.angelfire.com/mo/cptr/roaringriver.html

supporting site
http://www.ufocasebook.com/roaringriver.html

The burn marks can be from Earthly origins. Those patterns are found in industrial grids, and that person may have been burned by an exhaust grid or something similar. I admit that the radiation is a bit odd, but still more investigation was needed. What kind of radiation was it? Was it alpha, beta or gamma radiation? Is there a chance that someone buried some nuclear material? Again more data is missing.

NeedAnswers wrote:
Another case:
http://ufos.about.com/od/ufocrashes/p/ubatuba.htm

I admit that the pure magnesium is puzzling. But still, from having a piece of pure magnesium, which the metal was totally used in the testing, and there is no way to analyze, and to validate further the results. That metal could be from some meteorite breaking as it descended, or something.

Some of the above I agree is a bit of a mystery. However, again there is a lot of data missing. In the 1957 case, they should have called in people from a University, radiation experts, physicists, the whole lot to investigate the radiation.

The metal shrapnel of pure magnesium, has more data missing as we don't even know who sent it, where it came from or anything like that. Could it have been the byproduct of some experiment?

One more thing to add:

All the supposed UFO cases do not have a full investigation. There is confusion, half data, people who probably do not know what they are doing and might be even messing up with evidence unknowingly.

What I would like to see is a full report. From eye-witness reports to a full scientific investigation of any physical evidence. Let the scientists deal with the evidence. Forensic specialists, lab analysts, physicists, people who know and understand science and technology and can make a full analysis of any physical evidence and can give a proper report.

Darkchilde wrote:One more thing to add:

All the supposed UFO cases do not have a full investigation. There is confusion, half data, people who probably do not know what they are doing and might be even messing up with evidence unknowingly.

What I would like to see is a full report. From eye-witness reports to a full scientific investigation of any physical evidence. Let the scientists deal with the evidence. Forensic specialists, lab analysts, physicists, people who know and understand science and technology and can make a full analysis of any physical evidence and can give a proper report.

This I can agree with. We need more full investigations that are privately funded instead of government funded. The government funded ones that have been done were shady and completely biased. I feel like MUFON does a fairly good job in their investigation but their stuff is amateur and those who are seeking deeper investigations wouldn't be highly impressed with their collection.

NeedAnswers wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:One more thing to add:

All the supposed UFO cases do not have a full investigation. There is confusion, half data, people who probably do not know what they are doing and might be even messing up with evidence unknowingly.

What I would like to see is a full report. From eye-witness reports to a full scientific investigation of any physical evidence. Let the scientists deal with the evidence. Forensic specialists, lab analysts, physicists, people who know and understand science and technology and can make a full analysis of any physical evidence and can give a proper report.

This I can agree with. We need more full investigations that are privately funded instead of government funded. The government funded ones that have been done were shady and completely biased. I feel like MUFON does a fairly good job in their investigation but their stuff is amateur and those who are seeking deeper investigations wouldn't be highly impressed with their collection.

I don't mind whether they are privately or government funded as long as it is done correctly.

I knew about MUFON before you linked me to it, and they are complete amateurs. Even I would know how to do a much better job. Anecdotal evidence and some photos do not constitute acceptable evidence by themselves. I accept that there was an incident when there are those types of evidence, but what that incident could be is anyone's guess without a proper investigation.

If there is ever a proper report, I will read it with an open mind.

Darkchilde wrote:The metal shrapnel of pure magnesium, has more data missing as we don't even know who sent it, where it came from or anything like that. Could it have been the byproduct of some experiment?

What is the big deal about pure magnesium?
http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale/who ... aliexpress

rainbow wrote:

Darkchilde wrote:The metal shrapnel of pure magnesium, has more data missing as we don't even know who sent it, where it came from or anything like that. Could it have been the byproduct of some experiment?

What is the big deal about pure magnesium?
http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale/who ... aliexpress

Thanks rainbow, for that link. I was under the impression that pure magnesium is not found on Earth and that we cannot purify it. Which means again, that this is another piece of metal that can be found on Earth.