Defanging Nagel's Bat

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Defanging Nagel's Bat

#1  Postby ColonelZen » Jun 04, 2010 1:05 am

As published at http://machineintheshell.blogspot.com


What it is Like to be a Bat in Philosophy's Belfry

As you might suspect from my somewhat juvenile humor in titling this essay, I shall address and, to my satisfaction, rebut the core arguments of Thomas Nagel's essay, "What is it like to be a bat?" (available many places online should that link fail). My humor should in no way be construed as disrespect; Nagel's essay has now stood for decades as the shield in the van of those who resist the notion that the human mind is reducible to purely physical operations. It is a subtle and well crafted essay, and an absolute must for anyone seriously interested in philosophy or science of the mind.

I published the substance of this repudiation in a brief post on the-brights.net forum. Here I shall elaborate a bit more.

Nagel's paper has been endlessly discussed and naturally I am not familiar with all such discussion. It is quite possible that others have presented my core argument but that it has not caught my attention. Please direct me to any such should you know of them.

The subject question is succinctly stated in the fourth paragraph:

... Any reductionist program has to be based on an analysis of what is to be reduced. If the analysis leaves something out, the problem will be falsely posed. It is useless to base the defense of materialism on any analysis of mental phenomena that fails to deal explicitly with their subjective character. ...


In other words any physicalist explanation of human cognition must account for our phenomenology, how it is generated, and what it accomplishes in terms of the other activities of the mind reduced to brain functions. The question then is whether such is possible. Is there, or even can there be a strongly plausible preferably testable explanation for our common if unsharable experiences of what we see, hear and feel "inside our heads" are generated by the biology and chemistry which we do know, or can plausibly come to know, comprise the physical mechanism of our brains?

Nagel's answer is "no". To his credit he does not claim his title query and exposition as a positive proof. But his paper presents a potent argument that there must be an answer to it before physical reductionism can be taken seriously.

Despite positing that there may one day be a science which can answer questions of phenomenology, Nagel quite clearly believes that nothing resembling contemporary science can address his question. From the opening:

Without consciousness the mind-body problem would be much less interesting. With consciousness it seems hopeless. The most important and characteristic feature of conscious mental phenomena is very poorly understood. Most reductionist theories do not even try to explain it. And careful examination will show that no currently available concept of reduction is applicable to it. Perhaps a new theoretical form can be devised for the purpose, but such a solution, if it exists, lies in the distant intellectual future


And otherwise throughout the paper there are telltales that Nagel believes that physical explanations can never account for the phenomenal. In 1974 there was considerably more justification for such pessimism than can be rationalized today. We have not only models, a la Dennett, but cognitive psychology mapping interactions between the perceptual and phenomenal, and neurophysiologists tracking the generation of phenomenal experience in living brains with probes, high resolution fMRI and other techniques.

But it is Nagel's "what is it like" question and his powerful justification for it which raises his paper above a mere question begging blank assertion that the physical cannot account for the subjective. Even with the advances of science mentioned above, Nagel cannot be ignored. Even Dennett's attention to "What is it like ..." in "Consciousness Explained" seems to have misapprehended the motivation of Nagel's question.

Nagel opens the substance of his salvo by demonstrating that, meaningfully and objectively, "there is something that it is like to be a bat", just as every sentient person knows intuitively that there is something it is like to be him- or herself. Even accounting for the large differences in intelligence, any creature which exhibits behavior more sophisticated than autonomic reaction to stimulus has some "experience" ... it adapts to changes in its environment in complex ways.

Now his thesis that "what is it like" applies and must be answered for any sufficiently sophisticated animal and each human individually, but there is ample reason why Nagel chose a bat as his illustrative example. It is mammalian and sufficiently complex that we feel some sympathy - we are intrigued. But at the same time it is an animal profoundly unlike us, a nocturnal flier, but most significantly it possesses a sensory apparatus - echolocation - completely unlike our own senses.

Nagel has some fun demonstrating that no matter how sympathetic we are any attempt by us to imagine what its like to be a bat is doomed to failure. At best we can imagine what it is like for us pretending to try to be a bat. There is simply no way that we, equipped with human senses, can meaningfully correlate our own experiences with those of a bat. Of course the same is true for any creature with different senses or significantly different lifestyle and correspondingly different motivations. And while Nagel doesn't stress it, at bottom it also applies to our fellow humans. No matter how much we commiserate we can never truly have the what is it like experience of someone else; at best we can learn what it is like for us to experience very similar events and circumstances.

But further on comes the hammer blow. The "what is it like" question must be answerable for reductionism to have merit. Reductionism means equating the thing being reduced to an assemblage of simpler, better understood things and their interactions. The key is "equate". An equality. An "is". If there meaningfully and objectively is a "something it is like", then to be reducible there must be a what that something is like, preferably more immediately physical. But the question "what is it like" must be answerable.


As Nagel puts it:


But I believe it is precisely this apparent clarity of the word 'is' that is deceptive. Usually, when we are told that X is Y we know how it is supposed to be true, but that depends on a conceptual or theoretical background and is not conveyed by the 'is' alone. We know how both "X" and "Y " refer, and the kinds of things to which they refer, and we have a rough idea how the two referential paths might converge on a single thing, be it an object, a person, a process, an event or whatever. But when the two terms of the identification are very disparate it may not be so clear how it could be true. We may not have even a rough idea of how the two referential paths could converge, or what kind of things they might converge on, and a theoretical framework may have to be supplied to enable us to understand this. Without the framework, an air of mysticism surrounds the identification.


So the profound impact of Nagel's paper lies not in the impossibility of answering the question "What is it like to be a bat" in terms of human experience, but in the well justified demand that reductionist physicalism must be able to demonstrate that there is an answer, preferably one where the response is notably closer to the physical.

Is there an answer? Yes. And it is both trivial and informative.

While I have not yet here expounded on my decorations of Dennett's model, that answer is an elementary exercise in mechanics within it. But we needn't go that far to answer Nagel's quandary, and doing so will illuminate some aspects of how consciousness works for later discussion.

The single most interesting word in Nagel's title question is "like". All the other words are simple in context. Even "be" is elementary in context and we can ignore its ontological perplexities though peripherally pertinent. But what is "like"? What does it mean?

"Like" means to abstract the similar properties of two entities. It implies a comparison. "Something it is like" then asserts that for a being of minimal neurological sophistication, i. e. capable of having experiences, its contemporary instant experience has properties similar to something else. Nagel's gauntlet is the demand that we physicalists find out what that other something is.

So what can experiences be compared to? There is only one thing an experience can be compared to: other experiences. And since in the contemporary experience in question occurs privately in the head of a mute animal without means of exporting the properties of its experience, there is only one source of other experience with which to compare its contemporary experiences: its memory.

Here then is the answer to Nagel's title question: what is it like to be a bat? The answer is: it is like the memory of having been a bat.

The mysterians and willful obscurantists will undoubtedly regard that answer as inadequate. But it does fulfill the requirements of Nagel's paper. There is an answer. The X and Y of the reductionist formula have been met, there are two things different and distinct, immediacy and memory, intersecting in the "like" and resolving the "what" or "something" of the title and its source reasoning.

And it tells us something which is not intuitively obvious at first glance. It powerfully infers that memory is a requisite of whatever mentality we would classify as having experience.

To fortify against the first round of objections a few things should be noted. It implies and asserts that newborns will have little of consciousness until they accumulate experience. It predicts that there will be a positive correlation between the time or rate of accumulation of relevant experiences versus the sophistication of the adult in its niche.

Likewise it needs to be noted that memory is much closer to being understood at the purely physical level. Edelman won his Nobel for exactly that work. There are volumes of scientific detail and experimental validation for our understandings of how memory is laid down in living brains. And conceptually, the idea of memory is well understood; the computer you are reading this on contains billions of bytes of memory. We understand memory conceptually and are well on our way to understanding it as chemistry in cells and brains.

The only question then is how does that memory capture past experience and compare them to contemporary experience. But that of course relies upon how the subjective contemporaries are generated. We physicalists assert that it is simply chemistry in and among the cells of the brain, captured for memory by the processes Edelman and others have illuminated. The mysterians, of course will dispute that.

But the title challenge of Nagel's essay has been met. The catcalls of naysayers are simply the statement that the mechanics of phenomenology have not been explained - which is largely true in terms of scientific rigor, not true conceptually for Dennett's followers. But having supplied the missing solution to the philosopher's inquiry, such quibbles are themselves reduced to the question begging that Nagel so brilliantly avoided.

-- TWZ
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#2  Postby Jef » Jun 04, 2010 1:32 am

What is it like to remember being a bat?

Hate to say it, but I think you rather missed the point.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#3  Postby ColonelZen » Jun 04, 2010 1:54 am

I think not.

The power of Nagel's formulation is that it tries to seduce you into thinking that you must be able conjure a similar experience in your own mind to meet the demands of reductionism. When looked at abstractly it's claiming that physicalism can't be correct because I can never know how strawberries taste to you.

But I think I showed that the seduction can be resisted, and his (very well justified) demand can be met without succumbing to the lure of an impossible tryst. That information is inaccessible does not mean that it is not real. The information of "what it's like" for a bat is stored in the bats brain just as the taste of strawberries is separately but mutually inaccessibly in yours and mine. Inaccessible information is just as real as that we can internally experience. DNA did its information magic billions of years before Watson and Crick figured out how it works. The information only needs be accessible where it must be used, i. e. for a bat to have a "what it is like" it is accessible in its memory. I demonstrated that Nagel's justified demand is well met by such information only being accessible where it is needed.

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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#4  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 06, 2010 1:09 pm

ColonelZen wrote:The single most interesting word in Nagel's title question is "like". All the other words are simple in context. Even "be" is elementary in context and we can ignore its ontological perplexities though peripherally pertinent. But what is "like"? What does it mean?


Excellent. I too pounce upon the word like. It receives very little attention and we are usually asked to just accept the naive idea of it.

Your idea that newborns have little in the way of experience and the ideas about memory are the same as mine.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#5  Postby ColonelZen » Jun 07, 2010 1:13 am

Good. I won't be alone in the loony bin, then. I swear that I cannot fathom the depth of resistance I often encounter in asserting that consciousness is functionally understandable. Even people who swear up and down that they are materialist are often adamantly opposed to functional explanations.

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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#6  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 07, 2010 2:43 pm

ColonelZen wrote:Good. I won't be alone in the loony bin, then. I swear that I cannot fathom the depth of resistance I often encounter in asserting that consciousness is functionally understandable. Even people who swear up and down that they are materialist are often adamantly opposed to functional explanations.

-- TWZ


No you wont be alone. It will be a room for two. It amazes me too how hard it is to accept what we have found about the brain. I chock it up to the brain doing it's job too well. The currency of our reality is in the neurons and we have so many neurons and subsystems that the reality thus created is extremely persuasive. We can't let go.

I am one of a handful of people that believe we have already found the neural correlates of C. We just can't accept what we found.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#7  Postby Chrisw » Jun 10, 2010 2:36 pm

ColonelZen wrote:I swear that I cannot fathom the depth of resistance I often encounter in asserting that consciousness is functionally understandable.

I don't think anyone has objected to that yet.

But trying to exlain "experience" by reference to "memories of experience" seems a little circular, to say the least.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#8  Postby Teuton » Jun 10, 2010 3:08 pm

ColonelZen wrote:As published at http://machineintheshell.blogspot.com

What it is Like to be a Bat in Philosophy's Belfry

…The single most interesting word in Nagel's title question is "like". All the other words are simple in context. Even "be" is elementary in context and we can ignore its ontological perplexities though peripherally pertinent. But what is "like"? What does it mean?

"Like" means to abstract the similar properties of two entities. It implies a comparison. "Something it is like" then asserts that for a being of minimal neurological sophistication, i. e. capable of having experiences, its contemporary instant experience has properties similar to something else. Nagel's gauntlet is the demand that we physicalists find out what that other something is.

So what can experiences be compared to? There is only one thing an experience can be compared to: other experiences.…



"A literalist might see the phrase 'know what it's like' and take that to mean: 'know what it resembles.' Then he might ask: what's so hard about that? … This misses the point. Pace the literalist, 'know what it's like' does not mean 'know what it resembles.' The most that's true is that knowing what it resembles may help you to know what it's like. If you are taught that experience A resembles B and C closely, D less, E not at all, that will help you know what A is like—if you know already what B and C and D and E are like. Otherwise, it helps you not at all. I don't know any better what it's like to taste Vegemite when I'm told that it tastes like Marmite, because I don't know what Marmite tastes like either. (Nor do I know any better what Marmite tastes like for being told it tastes like Vegemite.) Maybe Mary knows enough to triangulate each color experience exactly in a network of resemblances, or in many networks of resemblance in different respects, while never knowing what any node of any network is like. Maybe we could do the same for bat experiences. But no amount of information about resemblances, just by itself, does anything to help us know what an experience is like."

(Lewis, David. "What Experience Teaches." 1988. In: David Lewis, Papers in Metaphysics and Epistemology, 262-290. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999. pp. 265-6)
"Perception does not exhaust our contact with reality; we can think too." – Timothy Williamson
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#9  Postby ColonelZen » Jun 11, 2010 12:32 am

Chrisw wrote:
ColonelZen wrote:I swear that I cannot fathom the depth of resistance I often encounter in asserting that consciousness is functionally understandable.

I don't think anyone has objected to that yet.

But trying to exlain "experience" by reference to "memories of experience" seems a little circular, to say the least.


But it is not so. Elsewhere I comment that we need to develop well defined jargon. "Experience" as I would style it, only occurs in the immediate present. You can conjure the memory of an experience, say of driving, but you are not then experiencing driving; you are then only experiencing recalling the memory of driving.

Your memories are stored sensoria, images, sounds, kinesthia, etc - even emotional cues. but they are not the instant "what it is like" that Nagel so powerfully invokes. There are no conceptual difficulties in storage of such ... even the emotional cues are constructs of the brain, so there is no difficulty conceptually in the brain storing a key to re-evoke them in association with a package of related sensory memories.

As per the predictive aspect of my essay, then, there is no higher level consciousness in infancy. It take time for the brain to learn to properly collate and store related sensoria and emotive dispositions and accumulate a repertoire of such against which instant experience can be productively compared.

I haven't yet written up a more formal essay for my model of consciousness (as I say, decorations on Dennett) but an older version of it is on my blog (not kept up) www.zensden.net/ColonelZen as "From Beast to Brightman" and innumerable discussions about it in older posts on the-brights.net. But the storage of sensoria and comparison of contemporary experience (again, instant sensoria and emotional dispositions from it) against that storage goes right to the heart of how (and why) I think phenomenal consciousness works.

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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#10  Postby ColonelZen » Jun 11, 2010 1:02 am

Teuton wrote:
ColonelZen wrote:As published at http://machineintheshell.blogspot.com

What it is Like to be a Bat in Philosophy's Belfry

…The single most interesting word in Nagel's title question is "like". All the other words are simple in context. Even "be" is elementary in context and we can ignore its ontological perplexities though peripherally pertinent. But what is "like"? What does it mean?

"Like" means to abstract the similar properties of two entities. It implies a comparison. "Something it is like" then asserts that for a being of minimal neurological sophistication, i. e. capable of having experiences, its contemporary instant experience has properties similar to something else. Nagel's gauntlet is the demand that we physicalists find out what that other something is.

So what can experiences be compared to? There is only one thing an experience can be compared to: other experiences.…



"A literalist might see the phrase 'know what it's like' and take that to mean: 'know what it resembles.' Then he might ask: what's so hard about that? … This misses the point. Pace the literalist, 'know what it's like' does not mean 'know what it resembles.' The most that's true is that knowing what it resembles may help you to know what it's like. If you are taught that experience A resembles B and C closely, D less, E not at all, that will help you know what A is like—if you know already what B and C and D and E are like. Otherwise, it helps you not at all. I don't know any better what it's like to taste Vegemite when I'm told that it tastes like Marmite, because I don't know what Marmite tastes like either. (Nor do I know any better what Marmite tastes like for being told it tastes like Vegemite.) Maybe Mary knows enough to triangulate each color experience exactly in a network of resemblances, or in many networks of resemblance in different respects, while never knowing what any node of any network is like. Maybe we could do the same for bat experiences. But no amount of information about resemblances, just by itself, does anything to help us know what an experience is like."

(Lewis, David. "What Experience Teaches." 1988. In: David Lewis, Papers in Metaphysics and Epistemology, 262-290. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999. pp. 265-6)


Word magic.

*We* create the words and meaning of "what it is like". They are the products of human brains. If what it is like does not mean comparison, then it means nothing. The extract from Lewis above hints that there is some essential meaning to "what it is like" outside of human experience. Need I comment upon the absurdity of such an implication?

The Mary problem is not a problem when you admit that there is information which is only privately accessible. Mary may know all there is to know academically about color, but there remains information she does not know: what the neurophysiological correlates in her own brain are (which are similar to most other human brains) which correlate to which colors. As a thought experiment, we can take this two steps farther. First we learn enough neurophysiology and learn common distinctive markers in brain activity correlate to various colors (presuming there is enough similarity in human brains - probably). Then we wire up Mary1's brain so that she can read out how her own brain is reacting; now bring out the color swatches and she can identify colors based upon purely "academic" knowledge. Second, having that knowledge we stimulate the color sensations in the correct places and order in Mary2's brain and being "in" on the experiment and an expert she knows which stimulations correspond to which colors. Now we have moved the correlations for color into Mary2's memory without her ever having "seen" a color. She goes out of the laboratory and can identify the colors of the cars and toys just fine. Theoretically, if ever we can understand the structure of brains well enough (probably in the far distant future, if ever, for more than very course concepts/qualia) we could imbue people with "memories" of various "qualia" without their ever having personally experienced them.

Once again the key is memory and correlation of them to contemporary sensory input.

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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#11  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 11, 2010 10:53 am

ColonelZen wrote:
Once again the key is memory and correlation of them to contemporary sensory input.

-- TWZ


Doood!! Where have you been all these months? :cheers:

After saying this:
But there's an additional and much subtler problem here. You see, I never had a quale until I understood qualia.


I don't understand why you aren't participating in this thread: philosophy/what-is-qualia-t6399.html

I'm over reading your posts on the brights forum.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#12  Postby Jef » Jun 11, 2010 11:08 am

Theoretically, if ever we can understand the structure of brains well enough (probably in the far distant future, if ever, for more than very course concepts/qualia) we could imbue people with "memories" of various "qualia" without their ever having personally experienced them.


I tend to agree with this in relation to the Mary's room problem; it is just a matter of providing the right simulated stimulation. In relation to Nagel's bat, however, I cannot see how it is possible to know what it is like to be a bat without having a brain with the same physical structure as that of a bat and, presumably, losing the ability to experience as a human accordingly. There is, for me, a clear difference between mapping experiential data between two human brains with a high level of similarity between structures and functionality, and attempting to map experience data from a brain with certain structures and functionality to another which does not possess them. You will not process the information as a bat does unless you have a bat's brain, and if you have a bat's brain you will not be capable of human cognition of that information. It is a 'hardware' problem, whereas Mary could be seen more as a 'software' problem.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#13  Postby Chrisw » Jun 11, 2010 3:06 pm

ColonelZen wrote:
Chrisw wrote:
ColonelZen wrote:I swear that I cannot fathom the depth of resistance I often encounter in asserting that consciousness is functionally understandable.

I don't think anyone has objected to that yet.

But trying to explain "experience" by reference to "memories of experience" seems a little circular, to say the least.


But it is not so. Elsewhere I comment that we need to develop well defined jargon. "Experience" as I would style it, only occurs in the immediate present. You can conjure the memory of an experience, say of driving, but you are not then experiencing driving; you are then only experiencing recalling the memory of driving.

Your memories are stored sensoria, images, sounds, kinesthia, etc - even emotional cues. but they are not the instant "what it is like" that Nagel so powerfully invokes. There are no conceptual difficulties in storage of such ... even the emotional cues are constructs of the brain, so there is no difficulty conceptually in the brain storing a key to re-evoke them in association with a package of related sensory memories.

As per the predictive aspect of my essay, then, there is no higher level consciousness in infancy. It take time for the brain to learn to properly collate and store related sensoria and emotive dispositions and accumulate a repertoire of such against which instant experience can be productively compared.


Err, you've just gone round the same circle again.

You talk about "instant experience" which then needs to be compared with memories of past experience to give us "consciousness". But the "instant experiences" already imply consciousness. To have any experience at all is to be conscious.

And how does any of this help us understand what it is like to be a bat? A bat has different memories to us because bats have different sorts of "instant experiences" to us. But it is the difference in these instant experiences that Nagel is asking about.

All you seem to be saying is that whatever it is like to be a bat, bats have memories of it. Perhaps you don't understand the question?
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#14  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 11, 2010 4:09 pm

Chrisw wrote:

Err, you've just gone round the same circle again.

You talk about "instant experience" which then needs to be compared with memories of past experience to give us "consciousness". But the "instant experiences" already imply consciousness. To have any experience at all is to be conscious.

And how does any of this help us understand what it is like to be a bat? A bat has different memories to us because bats have different sorts of "instant experiences" to us. But it is the difference in these instant experiences that Nagel is asking about.

All you seem to be saying is that whatever it is like to be a bat, bats have memories of it. Perhaps you don't understand the question?


Consider that Experience=memory. Think of them as one and the same thing. The thing we like to factor out and conceptualize as consciousness or qualia is just the memory that is being strongly lit up by present input.

But the key is to consider that there is a deep equivalence between memory and experience.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#15  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Another way to look at this is to consider our reality. The substance of exchange in our neural reality is what I call the currency of our reality. Humans have so much currency (as in $) and our model of reality is so damned good that we have actually become confused by it. We have become so smart that we are dumb. We have a stubborn intuition that our experience is Something deep and solid. We feel that any day now science or wooTards will discover it's essential something. Not going to happen. There is nothing there but smoke and mirrors. This is the currency of our reality.

The thing that we call conscious experience is no different than any other electrical signals in the brain EXCEPT that this thing is persisted for more than 200 milliseconds and it is essentially the result of all the other processing. It is the only thing that is worth being conscious of. Therefore it is.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#16  Postby ColonelZen » Jun 12, 2010 2:10 am

Jef wrote:.... In relation to Nagel's bat, however, I cannot see how it is possible to know what it is like to be a bat without having a brain with the same physical structure as that of a bat and, presumably, losing the ability to experience as a human accordingly. There is, for me, a clear difference between mapping experiential data between two human brains with a high level of similarity between structures and functionality, and attempting to map experience data from a brain with certain structures and functionality to another which does not possess them. ...



Chrisw wrote:
ColonelZen wrote:But it is not so. Elsewhere I comment that we need to develop well defined jargon. "Experience" as I would style it, only occurs in the immediate present. You can conjure the memory of an experience, say of driving, but you are not then experiencing driving; you are then only experiencing recalling the memory of driving.

Your memories are stored sensoria, images, sounds, kinesthia, etc - even emotional cues. but they are not the instant "what it is like" that Nagel so powerfully invokes. There are no conceptual difficulties in storage of such ... even the emotional cues are constructs of the brain, so there is no difficulty conceptually in the brain storing a key to re-evoke them in association with a package of related sensory memories.

As per the predictive aspect of my essay, then, there is no higher level consciousness in infancy. It take time for the brain to learn to properly collate and store related sensoria and emotive dispositions and accumulate a repertoire of such against which instant experience can be productively compared.


Err, you've just gone round the same circle again.

You talk about "instant experience" which then needs to be compared with memories of past experience to give us "consciousness". But the "instant experiences" already imply consciousness. To have any experience at all is to be conscious.

And how does any of this help us understand what it is like to be a bat? A bat has different memories to us because bats have different sorts of "instant experiences" to us. But it is the difference in these instant experiences that Nagel is asking about.

All you seem to be saying is that whatever it is like to be a bat, bats have memories of it. Perhaps you don't understand the question?


Gents, I repeat, the substance of my essay is that Nagel's objections to physical reductionism can be met without any need for humans to be able to experience "what it is like to be a bat". My deconstruction shows that the requirements for the logical construct of reductionism - which Nagel rightly demonstrates is required - can be met simply by demonstrating that the *information*, which we as humans style "something it is like" exists. In the bat. And that the bat's memory contains the requisite information for the comparison referenced by the "something" or "what is it" object of the "like". The books can be balanced without ever needing to be comparable to any human experience or memory.

In essence, Nagel's essay pivots on a subtle semantic trick. By elaborating on the bat's behavior and complexity and asserting that the bat shows some level of consciousness, he properly demonstrates that there definitely is "something it is like" - but notice that all that justification focuses upon the bat and the "something it is like" is localized to and within the bat. Then he pulls the "trick" of replacing "something it is" with "what is it" giving a "what is it like" construct. The real trick is that we are habituated when encountering a "what is it like" inquiry to pulling the answer from our own memories of our own experiences. But of course that is impossible in this case, but as I repeatedly asserted here, and attempted to demonstrate it my rebuttal, it is NOT required to defeat Nagel's objection to reductionism. All that defeating Nagel requires is demonstration that there is a physically reducible referent for the "something" in the pre-pivot development of the question.

Without Nagel's verbal prestidigitation there is nothing left but the bland assertion (and wrong, IMO) that consciousness cannot be reduced because we don't yet have a (at least not yet consensually agreed upon) model of that reduction. God of the gaps again. Again, today, as compared to 1974, you may not agree with any of the more complete models, but it cannot be denied that there *are* numerous partial models, used in real world practice, both in cognitive psychology and in neuro-physiological research, of how the physical brain constructs phenomenal consciousness.

No where in that essay do I even hint at any specific model of how phenomenal consciousness is produced. I simply break Nagel's objection to reductionism and attempt nothing else.

-- TWZ
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#17  Postby ColonelZen » Jun 12, 2010 2:43 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
ColonelZen wrote:After saying this:
But there's an additional and much subtler problem here. You see, I never had a quale until I understood qualia.


I don't understand why you aren't participating in this thread: philosophy/what-is-qualia-t6399.html


I did once a couple pages back, but no one seemed to be able to see it through the flying yellow liquid haze. I just left a hit and run comment on the irony of a post over there. Remember I'm a newb here, and not yet that familiar with things; the long threads in particular leave me hesitant to post because I don't know what's been previously discussed.

From your comments here and there I think we're largely in agreement on matters of consciousness, and look forward to interesting discussion when we hit something where we disagree.

-- TWZ
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#18  Postby jamest » Jun 12, 2010 9:20 am

ColonelZen wrote:Gents, I repeat, the substance of my essay is that Nagel's objections to physical reductionism can be met without any need for humans to be able to experience "what it is like to be a bat". My deconstruction shows that the requirements for the logical construct of reductionism - which Nagel rightly demonstrates is required - can be met simply by demonstrating that the *information*, which we as humans style "something it is like" exists. In the bat. And that the bat's memory contains the requisite information for the comparison referenced by the "something" or "what is it" object of the "like". The books can be balanced without ever needing to be comparable to any human experience or memory.

Hello.

There are subtle flaws that need to be addressed here. Being, is always in the present. There is no being in the past. That is, one cannot draw from the past to define 'being'. You appear to be mistaking events [that happened to being], with being itself. When I draw out memories, I remember events that happened to me, or phenomena that I were witness to. Any memories about 'myself' involve things that I have done. That is, I remember doing, not being.

I could say more about this, but I'm sure you get the picture. The bottom-line is, imo, that 'what it is like to be' cannot be drawn from memory. Which would rule-out your rejection of Nagel.
Il messaggero non e importante.
Ora non e importante.
Il resultato futuro e importante.
Quindi, persisto.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#19  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 12, 2010 12:36 pm

jamest wrote:
I could say more about this...


...but it's a safe bet you won't be bending any spoons any time in the proximate future. Be here now.

You appear to be mistaking events [that happened to being], with being itself.


Stayin' alive, stayin' alive. Oooh, oooh, oooh, oooh... stayin' aliiiiiiive.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Defanging Nagel's Bat

#20  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 12, 2010 12:41 pm

jamest wrote:
ColonelZen wrote:Gents, I repeat, the substance of my essay is that Nagel's objections to physical reductionism can be met without any need for humans to be able to experience "what it is like to be a bat". My deconstruction shows that the requirements for the logical construct of reductionism - which Nagel rightly demonstrates is required - can be met simply by demonstrating that the *information*, which we as humans style "something it is like" exists. In the bat. And that the bat's memory contains the requisite information for the comparison referenced by the "something" or "what is it" object of the "like". The books can be balanced without ever needing to be comparable to any human experience or memory.

Hello.

There are subtle flaws that need to be addressed here. Being, is always in the present. There is no being in the past. That is, one cannot draw from the past to define 'being'. You appear to be mistaking events [that happened to being], with being itself. When I draw out memories, I remember events that happened to me, or phenomena that I were witness to. Any memories about 'myself' involve things that I have done. That is, I remember doing, not being.

I could say more about this, but I'm sure you get the picture. The bottom-line is, imo, that 'what it is like to be' cannot be drawn from memory. Which would rule-out your rejection of Nagel.


Yes james, we know how people have been thinking about mind and memory for the past few hundred thousand years. But we are talking about reality here and modern science. Philosophers aren't going to use their minds to figure out how minds work. Read my sig.
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