Existence, Intension/Extension

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Existence, Intension/Extension

#1  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 12:08 pm

It goes like this:
jamest wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Prove to me that hamsters do not exist.

I don't have to prove anything about the existence of hamsters.
...
Irrelevant, unless you can prove that hamsters exist beyond your experience of them, which you cannot.
...


Vexing.

What do we mean to say a thing exists? What is proof of existence or non-existence?

My position is that the word is utilitarian and has no meaning outside of a specific context between specific actors. Call it a model. Though I may have to amend that usage.

I want to know if x exists.
I have a set by intension as follows:
{x such that x is an integer and x >= 3 and x < 17}
I can extend the set and write {3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16}
If the set is not empty then x exists.

So that one is simple right? Yet you will see discussions about whether integers and these sets Really Exist.

It is my firm position that these discussion are complete nonsense. They have no frame, no, context, no definition, and no model.

It is simply true that these x's exist by definition and model. There is no meaning for the word exist outside of this clear specification. Further, proof is a little precarious even in simple cases but it to can be simply defined. But it MUST BE DEFINED!

Or else nonsense.

Now what I can do is give the intension of my set or class and then I can extend it piecemeal by choosing elements one by one and placing them in the set. We will define a proof by extension as having found at least one element for which the intensional statement is true. (note true has not meaning outside of it's models either, more nonsense to avoid)

Now if I am just an average guy asked to prove that hamsters exist there is a very commonly held model for doing so. We have some commonly held notion of what a hamster is. I simply have to find one such critter that falls true under the set of hamster predicates and I have my proof. If I can go buy a hamster at the pet store or even find a picture of one or some testimony then hamsters exist. The latter being a weaker proof.

Now consider the same criteria applied to blue bunny unicorns. Do they exist. Does 'blue bunny unicorn' exist? We very much want to say no to the former and yes to the latter. We want to say no to the case where we pretty much believe that there is no way in hell that given the challenge we can bring one of those things home and put it in our extended set. We do believe that we can find an integer given the criteria above and put it in our set. So I think such integers exist with greater strength than blue bunny unicorns.

Lets' give some criteria for god. Can we get god at the pet store and put it in the set? How about galaxies? How about the universe or how about Everything? Ho about Everything that Exists?

If we have no common notion, no ability to extend a set of hamster predicates or no criteria for proof then we are talking out of our asses again. Talking shit. Talking nonsense.

The vexing trick of both Little Idiot and jamest is posted above and it amounts to talking shit. Any attempt to answer such an unspecified proof is to fall for an intellectually dishonest piece of trickery.

So tricks aside. What do make of this existence business?
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#2  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 12:10 pm

BTW. Please anyone who posts here first state whether or not you believe hamsters exist. I don't now how to do a poll so this will have to suffice. The head count will be quite useful. i believe that hamsters exist.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#3  Postby jamest » Aug 08, 2013 12:20 pm

Am stirring inside. Little phantom bastards need to be put in their place.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#4  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 12:22 pm

jamest wrote:Am stirring inside. Little phantom bastards need to be put in their place.

Answer the question. This thread is a democracy. If you don't like that then try and send over a bunch of Red Coats again and see what happens.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#5  Postby Animavore » Aug 08, 2013 12:23 pm

I have evidence hamsters exist. To not believe they exist means disbelieving my senses. If I do that... I dunno... madness or disillusion or a loss of touch with reality or something follows.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#6  Postby jamest » Aug 08, 2013 12:24 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
jamest wrote:Am stirring inside. Little phantom bastards need to be put in their place.

Answer the question. This thread is a democracy. If you don't like that then try and send over a bunch of Red Coats again and see what happens.

I will, but first you need to have the mods X-rate this thread, in case any kids wander in.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#7  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 12:36 pm

Animavore wrote:I have evidence hamsters exist. To not believe they exist means disbelieving my senses. If I do that... I dunno... madness or disillusion or a loss of touch with reality or something follows.

That pretty much describes the kind of shit philosophy that has risen up around these simple common sense words. If you want to fuck up something useful like common sense and rationality just give your words to a philosopher and have him walk around the block with them and hand them back to you. You will find that you can no longer lift them or use them for anything other than wiping your ass with them.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#8  Postby Animavore » Aug 08, 2013 12:46 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Animavore wrote:I have evidence hamsters exist. To not believe they exist means disbelieving my senses. If I do that... I dunno... madness or disillusion or a loss of touch with reality or something follows.

That pretty much describes the kind of shit philosophy that has risen up around these simple common sense words. If you want to fuck up something useful like common sense and rationality just give your words to a philosopher and have him walk around the block with them and hand them back to you. You will find that you can no longer lift them or use them for anything other than wiping your ass with them.

It doesn't make sense for me to say they exist only in my mind. If that were the case I would be able to do what I want with them. Set them on fire, skin them alive or poke their eyes out as if they were, oh I don't know, some kind of meaty automaton.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#9  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 12:55 pm

Animavore wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Animavore wrote:I have evidence hamsters exist. To not believe they exist means disbelieving my senses. If I do that... I dunno... madness or disillusion or a loss of touch with reality or something follows.

That pretty much describes the kind of shit philosophy that has risen up around these simple common sense words. If you want to fuck up something useful like common sense and rationality just give your words to a philosopher and have him walk around the block with them and hand them back to you. You will find that you can no longer lift them or use them for anything other than wiping your ass with them.

It doesn't make sense for me to say they exist only in my mind. If that were the case I would be able to do what I want with them. Set them on fire, skin them alive or poke their eyes out as if they were, oh I don't know, some kind of meaty automaton.


Right. The criteria for the existence of hamsters is as known and accepted and as rigorous as for the case with integers.

Unicorns and god is another matter altogether. I conclude that jamest and other believers suffer from a bad case of ProofOfExistence-envy.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#10  Postby Animavore » Aug 08, 2013 12:59 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Animavore wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Animavore wrote:I have evidence hamsters exist. To not believe they exist means disbelieving my senses. If I do that... I dunno... madness or disillusion or a loss of touch with reality or something follows.

That pretty much describes the kind of shit philosophy that has risen up around these simple common sense words. If you want to fuck up something useful like common sense and rationality just give your words to a philosopher and have him walk around the block with them and hand them back to you. You will find that you can no longer lift them or use them for anything other than wiping your ass with them.

It doesn't make sense for me to say they exist only in my mind. If that were the case I would be able to do what I want with them. Set them on fire, skin them alive or poke their eyes out as if they were, oh I don't know, some kind of meaty automaton.


Right. The criteria for the existence of hamsters is as known and accepted and as rigorous as for the case with integers.

Unicorns and god is another matter altogether. I conclude that jamest and other believers suffer from a bad case of ProofOfExistence-envy.

So you're saying they call into doubt how you can say that anything exists to drag everything else down to God's level of existence?
Last edited by Animavore on Aug 08, 2013 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#11  Postby Doubtdispelled » Aug 08, 2013 1:00 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Animavore wrote:I have evidence hamsters exist. To not believe they exist means disbelieving my senses. If I do that... I dunno... madness or disillusion or a loss of touch with reality or something follows.

That pretty much describes the kind of shit philosophy that has risen up around these simple common sense words. If you want to fuck up something useful like common sense and rationality just give your words to a philosopher and have him walk around the block with them and hand them back to you. You will find that you can no longer lift them or use them for anything other than wiping your ass with them.

Aye.

I know hamsters exist. At least, mine did until I buried it, not realising it was probably only hibernating. :(

On the loss of touch with reality thing, I have a question.

Is it possible to lose touch with something you don't believe exists?

That should keep you guys away from the hamsters (pbut) for a bit.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#12  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 1:03 pm

Animavore wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Animavore wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
That pretty much describes the kind of shit philosophy that has risen up around these simple common sense words. If you want to fuck up something useful like common sense and rationality just give your words to a philosopher and have him walk around the block with them and hand them back to you. You will find that you can no longer lift them or use them for anything other than wiping your ass with them.

It doesn't make sense for me to say they exist only in my mind. If that were the case I would be able to do what I want with them. Set them on fire, skin them alive or poke their eyes out as if they were, oh I don't know, some kind of meaty automaton.


Right. The criteria for the existence of hamsters is as known and accepted and as rigorous as for the case with integers.

Unicorns and god is another matter altogether. I conclude that jamest and other believers suffer from a bad case of ProofOfExistence-envy.

So you're saying they call into doubt how you can say that anything exists to drag everything else down to God's level of existence?


Pretty much. It's intellectual dishonesty.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#13  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 1:04 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Animavore wrote:I have evidence hamsters exist. To not believe they exist means disbelieving my senses. If I do that... I dunno... madness or disillusion or a loss of touch with reality or something follows.

That pretty much describes the kind of shit philosophy that has risen up around these simple common sense words. If you want to fuck up something useful like common sense and rationality just give your words to a philosopher and have him walk around the block with them and hand them back to you. You will find that you can no longer lift them or use them for anything other than wiping your ass with them.

Aye.

I know hamsters exist. At least, mine did until I buried it, not realising it was probably only hibernating. :(

On the loss of touch with reality thing, I have a question.

Is it possible to lose touch with something you don't believe exists?

That should keep you guys away from the hamsters (pbut) for a bit.


You made me choke on my coffee. Poor thing!

No idea what you mean by your question there.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#14  Postby Doubtdispelled » Aug 08, 2013 1:06 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:No idea what you mean by your question there.
Really? You must need more coffee.

I'll rephrase: If you don't believe reality exists, then how can you lose touch with it?

Better? ;)

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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#15  Postby Animavore » Aug 08, 2013 1:12 pm

Surely if you don't believe it exists you've already lost touch with it? :ask:

I see no sense debating whether external reality exists or not. You can only live consistently by accepting it does. Hampsters look to suffer pain, I'll treat them as if they do, I'm not going to treat them as if they don't because if I'm wrong I'm causing suffering. If I'm wrong about them existing then it doesn't matter that I treat them right.

Sounds Pascal's wager-ish.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#16  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 1:14 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:No idea what you mean by your question there.
Really? You must need more coffee.

I'll rephrase: If you don't believe reality exists, then how can you lose touch with it?

Better? ;)

P.S. It's all Ani's fault.


Ahh. I do need more coffee.

Simple frame analysis is required. We have person B who has lost touch with reality. He has no access to his world so he don't know shit and he can't say anything about himself.

Person A has access to him. Person A is the one saying he has lost touch with reality and hopefully has power of attorney over person B.

So basically the response depends upon who is asking.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#17  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 1:30 pm

An iteration or re-iteration.

a. If a question is asked about proof of existence then criteria for such a proof must be provided by the questioner.
b. A frame and model must be established and agreed upon.

If not then we have nonsense.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#18  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 1:33 pm

A frame is a structure that maps out different worlds or different players etc.
A valuation is a list of atoms or simple propositions for each element of the frame and the assigned truth value for each.

Hope I got this somewhat right.
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#19  Postby SpeedOfSound » Aug 08, 2013 1:44 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:...


So do you see what I did there and do you understand how your original question suffers from being under-specified?
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Re: Existence, Intension/Extension

#20  Postby Steve » Aug 08, 2013 2:32 pm

Image
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny
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