Free Will

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

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Re: Free Will

#10141  Postby GrahamH » Oct 10, 2017 1:33 pm

John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:

Isn't JP using an argument from ignorance there? Free will must exist because physics can't prove it false. :nono:


That's not my argument:

My argument is that physics, as it is today, can't prove free will false.


Therefore...?
Guilty as charged.


Therefore we should believe our experience of it until there is good reason from science not to. And as I understood Cito to point out, don't confuse the money grubbing woo pedaling physicists, neuroscientists, anthropological psychologists, et al. "entertainment" with actual science.


Shall I repeat one more time that we don't, we can't, experience doing otherwise than we do so we can't experience an ability to have one otherwise? Granted you think you probably could have done otherwise, if some undefinable had been different, but you don't experience anything. You don't know how you could have done otherwise or what led to you doing as you did.
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Re: Free Will

#10142  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 10, 2017 1:38 pm

GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:

That's not my argument:

My argument is that physics, as it is today, can't prove free will false.


Therefore...?
Guilty as charged.


Therefore we should believe our experience of it until there is good reason from science not to. And as I understood Cito to point out, don't confuse the money grubbing woo pedaling physicists, neuroscientists, anthropological psychologists, et al. "entertainment" with actual science.


Shall I repeat one more time that we don't, we can't, experience doing otherwise than we do so we can't experience an ability to have one otherwise? Granted you think you probably could have done otherwise, if some undefinable had been different, but you don't experience anything. You don't know how you could have done otherwise or what led to you doing as you did.

Depends whether you count imagined experience as being a kind of experience.
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Re: Free Will

#10143  Postby John Platko » Oct 10, 2017 1:44 pm

Getting back to something simpler to analyze, i.e. fruit flies.


9. Consciousness and freedom

It thus is no coincidence that we all feel that we possess a certain degree of freedom of choice. It makes sense that depriving humans of such freedom is frequently used as punishment and the deprived do invariably perceive this limited freedom as undesirable. This experience of freedom is an important characteristic of what it is like to be human. It stems in part from our ability to behave variably. Voltaire expressed this intuition in saying ‘Liberty then is only and can be only the power to do what one will’. The concept that we can decide to behave differently even under identical circumstances underlies not only our justice systems. Electoral systems, our educational systems, parenting and basically all other social systems also presuppose behavioural variability and at least a certain degree of freedom of choice. Games and sports would be predictable and boring without our ability of constantly changing our behaviour in always the same settings.

The data reviewed above make clear that the special property of our brain that provides us with this freedom surely is independent of consciousness. Consciousness is not a necessary prerequisite for a scientific concept of free will. Clearly, a prisoner is regarded as un-free, irrespective of whether he is aware of it or not. John Austin [97] provides another instructive example ‘Consider the case where I miss a very short putt and kick myself because I could have holed it’. We sometimes have to work extremely hard to constrain our behavioural variability in order to behave as predictably as possible. Sports commentators often use ‘like a machine’ to describe very efficient athletes. Like practice, conscious efforts are able to control our freedom up to a certain degree. Compare, for instance, a line that you quickly drew on a piece of paper, with a line that was drawn with the conscious effort of making it as straight as possible. However, the neural principle underlying the process generating the variability is beyond total conscious control, requiring us to use rulers for perfectly straight lines. Therefore, the famous experiments of Benjamin Libet and others since then [2,4,5,98–100] only serve to cement the rejection of the metaphysical concept of free will and are not relevant for the concept proposed here. Conscious reflection, meditation or discussion may help with difficult decisions, but this is not even necessarily the case. The degree to which our conscious efforts can affect our decisions is therefore central to any discussion about the degree of responsibility our freedom entails, but not to the freedom itself.



:scratch: Hmmm this must be the editorial section of the scientific paper.

I hope I can find a study on the degree conscious efforts affect the decisions of fruit flies so we can spend some time discussing the degree of responsibility their freedom entails. Nothing I've read here :book: makes me think we should limit moral responsibility to humans.
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Re: Free Will

#10144  Postby GrahamH » Oct 10, 2017 1:45 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:

Therefore...?
Guilty as charged.


Therefore we should believe our experience of it until there is good reason from science not to. And as I understood Cito to point out, don't confuse the money grubbing woo pedaling physicists, neuroscientists, anthropological psychologists, et al. "entertainment" with actual science.


Shall I repeat one more time that we don't, we can't, experience doing otherwise than we do so we can't experience an ability to have one otherwise? Granted you think you probably could have done otherwise, if some undefinable had been different, but you don't experience anything. You don't know how you could have done otherwise or what led to you doing as you did.

Depends whether you count imagined experience as being a kind of experience.


Imagination is experience, but imagining you can fly isn't flying and imagining you could have done otherwise isn't doing otherwise, obviously. JP claims to experience free will. What is such an experience?

I suspect it is merely a lack of experience of coercion while being aware of options.
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Re: Free Will

#10145  Postby John Platko » Oct 10, 2017 1:46 pm

GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:

That's not my argument:

My argument is that physics, as it is today, can't prove free will false.


Therefore...?
Guilty as charged.


Therefore we should believe our experience of it until there is good reason from science not to. And as I understood Cito to point out, don't confuse the money grubbing woo pedaling physicists, neuroscientists, anthropological psychologists, et al. "entertainment" with actual science.


Shall I repeat one more time ...


I was hoping you would do otherwise. Are you even trying to do otherwise?
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Re: Free Will

#10146  Postby John Platko » Oct 10, 2017 1:47 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:

Therefore...?
Guilty as charged.


Therefore we should believe our experience of it until there is good reason from science not to. And as I understood Cito to point out, don't confuse the money grubbing woo pedaling physicists, neuroscientists, anthropological psychologists, et al. "entertainment" with actual science.


Shall I repeat one more time that we don't, we can't, experience doing otherwise than we do so we can't experience an ability to have one otherwise? Granted you think you probably could have done otherwise, if some undefinable had been different, but you don't experience anything. You don't know how you could have done otherwise or what led to you doing as you did.

Depends whether you count imagined experience as being a kind of experience.


:scratch: And excellent point. :thumbup:
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Re: Free Will

#10147  Postby GrahamH » Oct 10, 2017 1:48 pm

I was hoping JP would do otherwise than ehat he usually does which is dodge the issue. Ah well...
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Re: Free Will

#10148  Postby John Platko » Oct 10, 2017 1:50 pm

GrahamH wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:

Therefore we should believe our experience of it until there is good reason from science not to. And as I understood Cito to point out, don't confuse the money grubbing woo pedaling physicists, neuroscientists, anthropological psychologists, et al. "entertainment" with actual science.


Shall I repeat one more time that we don't, we can't, experience doing otherwise than we do so we can't experience an ability to have one otherwise? Granted you think you probably could have done otherwise, if some undefinable had been different, but you don't experience anything. You don't know how you could have done otherwise or what led to you doing as you did.

Depends whether you count imagined experience as being a kind of experience.


Imagination is experience, but imagining you can fly isn't flying and imagining you could have done otherwise isn't doing otherwise, obviously. JP claims to experience free will. What is such an experience?

I suspect it is merely a lack of experience of coercion while being aware of options.


It is a two stage process. Stage 1: create options and new knowledge, Stage 2: choose from the options created in Stage 1.

I experience this all the time.
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Re: Free Will

#10149  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 10, 2017 1:51 pm

GrahamH wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:

Therefore we should believe our experience of it until there is good reason from science not to. And as I understood Cito to point out, don't confuse the money grubbing woo pedaling physicists, neuroscientists, anthropological psychologists, et al. "entertainment" with actual science.


Shall I repeat one more time that we don't, we can't, experience doing otherwise than we do so we can't experience an ability to have one otherwise? Granted you think you probably could have done otherwise, if some undefinable had been different, but you don't experience anything. You don't know how you could have done otherwise or what led to you doing as you did.

Depends whether you count imagined experience as being a kind of experience.


Imagination is experience, but imagining you can fly isn't flying and imagining you could have done otherwise isn't doing otherwise, obviously. JP claims to experience free will. What is such an experience?

That all depends on what he means by free will, I guess. I know that your definition rules it out in any case.
To me, biological FW is experienced whenever you make a choice between two or more realistic options.
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Re: Free Will

#10150  Postby GrahamH » Oct 10, 2017 2:00 pm

John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
GrahamH wrote:

Shall I repeat one more time that we don't, we can't, experience doing otherwise than we do so we can't experience an ability to have one otherwise? Granted you think you probably could have done otherwise, if some undefinable had been different, but you don't experience anything. You don't know how you could have done otherwise or what led to you doing as you did.

Depends whether you count imagined experience as being a kind of experience.


Imagination is experience, but imagining you can fly isn't flying and imagining you could have done otherwise isn't doing otherwise, obviously. JP claims to experience free will. What is such an experience?

I suspect it is merely a lack of experience of coercion while being aware of options.


It is a two stage process. Stage 1: create options and new knowledge, Stage 2: choose from the options created in Stage 1.

I experience this all the time.


Ah, the definition contracts again. You used to be so keen on List (who was all for "could have done otherwise").
So, you are binning that and now it's just experience of picking an option" irrespective of what, how, who or why leads to you picking as you do. SO long ad you can't see the strings you will call it free will.
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Re: Free Will

#10151  Postby John Platko » Oct 10, 2017 2:03 pm

We've gone this far so we might as well wrap up this fly paper.


10. The self and agency

In contrast to consciousness, an important part of a scientific concept of free will is the concept of ‘self’.
It is important to realize that the organism generates an action itself, spontaneously. In chemistry, spontaneous reactions occur when there is a chemical imbalance. The system is said to be far from thermodynamic equilibrium. Biological organisms are constantly held far from equilibrium, they are considered open thermodynamic systems. However, in contrast to physical or chemical open systems, some of the spontaneous actions initiated by biological organisms help keep the organism away from equilibrium. Every action that promotes survival or acquires energy sustains the energy flow through the open system, prompting Georg Litsche to define biological organisms as a separate class of open systems (i.e. ‘subjects’; [101]). Because of this constant supply of energy, it should not be surprising to scientists that actions can be initiated spontaneously and need not be released by external stimuli. In controlled situations where there cannot be sufficient causes outside the organism to make the organism release the particular action, the brain initiates behaviour from within, potentially using a two-stage process as described above. The boy ceases to play and jumps up. This sort of impulsivity is a characteristic of children every parent can attest to. We do not describe the boy's action with ‘some hidden stimuli made him jump’—he jumped of his own accord. The jump has all the qualities of a beginning. The inference of agency in ourselves, others and even inanimate objects is a central component of how we think. Assigning agency requires a concept of self. How does a brain know what is self?

One striking characteristic of actions is that an animal normally does not respond to the sensory stimuli it causes by its own actions.


"normally" :lol:


The best examples are that it is difficult to tickle oneself and that we do not perceive the motion stimuli caused by our own eye saccades or the darkness caused by our eye blinks.


What about the best counter example?


The basic distinction between self-induced (re-afferent) and externally generated (ex-afferent) sensory stimuli has been formalized by von Holst & Mittelstaedt [102]. The two physiologists studied hoverflies walking on a platform surrounded by a cylinder with black and white vertical stripes. As long as the cylinder was not rotated, the animals seemed to behave as if they were oblivious to the stripes. However, as soon as the cylinder was switched on to rotate around the flies, the animals started to turn in register with the moving stripes, in an attempt to stabilize their orientation with respect to the panorama. Clearly, when the animals turned themselves, their eyes perceived the same motion stimuli as when the cylinder was rotated. The two scientists concluded that the animals detect which of these otherwise very similar motion signals are generated by the flies and which are not and dubbed this the ‘principle of reafference’. To test the possibility that the flies just blocked all visual input during self-initiated locomotion, the experimenters glued the heads of the animals rotated by 180° such that the positions of the left and right eye were exchanged and the proboscis pointed upwards. Whenever these ‘inverted’ animals started walking in the stationary striped cylinder, they ran in constant, uncontrollable circles, showing that they did perceive the relative motion of the surround. From this experiment, von Holst and Mittelstaedt concluded that self-generated turning comes with the expectation of a visual motion signal in the opposite direction that is perceived but normally does not elicit a response. If the visual motion signal is not caused by the animal, on the other hand, it most probably requires compensatory action, as this motion was not intended and hence not expected. The principle of reafference is the mechanism by which we realize which portion of the incoming sensory stream is under our own control and which portion is not. This is how we distinguish between those sensory stimuli that are consequences of our own actions and those that are not. Distinguishing self from ‘world’ is the prerequisite for the evolution of separate learning mechanisms for self- and world learning, respectively [43], which is the central principle of how brains balance actions and responses. The self/world distinction is thus the second important function of behavioural variability, besides making the organism harder to predict: by using the sensory feedback from our actions, we are constantly updating our model of how the environment responds to our actions. Animals and humans constantly ask: What happens if I do this? The experience of willing to do something and then successfully doing it is absolutely central to developing a sense of self and that we are in control (and not being controlled).

Thus, in order to understand actions, it is necessary to introduce the term self. The concept of self necessarily follows from the insight that animals and humans initiate behaviour by themselves. It would make no sense to assign a behaviour to an organism if any behavioural activity could, in principle, be traced back by a chain of causations to the origin of the universe. An animal or human being is the agent causing a behaviour, as long as no sufficient causes for this activity to occur are coming from outside the organism. Agency is assigned to entities who initiate actions themselves. Agency is crucial for moral responsibility. Behaviour can have good or bad consequences. It is the agent for whom the consequences matter the most and who can be held responsible for them.


Maybe we're getting close to finding out what moral responsibility fruit flies have. :ask: Are we going to have to treat them with love and compassion too - usually I just swat at the little buggers.
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Re: Free Will

#10152  Postby John Platko » Oct 10, 2017 2:13 pm

GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
Depends whether you count imagined experience as being a kind of experience.


Imagination is experience, but imagining you can fly isn't flying and imagining you could have done otherwise isn't doing otherwise, obviously. JP claims to experience free will. What is such an experience?

I suspect it is merely a lack of experience of coercion while being aware of options.


It is a two stage process. Stage 1: create options and new knowledge, Stage 2: choose from the options created in Stage 1.

I experience this all the time.


Ah, the definition contracts again. You used to be so keen on List (who was all for "could have done otherwise").
So, you are binning that" and now it's just experience of picking an option" irrespective of what, how, who or why leads to you picking as you do. SO long ad you can't see the strings you will call it free will.


As I stated before, the two stage process is the "special theory of free will" it is an agential level mode of explanation. And useful for many situations. (like my blues lick program) The "general theory of free will", which has yet to be presented, will integrate Lists branching history and decision points merged with Carroll's quantum MWI, with some JP special sauce that allows real honest "could have done otherwise" with deterministic histories - and I'm thinking entanglement is going to be key.

Got to finish the flies first though.
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Re: Free Will

#10153  Postby GrahamH » Oct 10, 2017 2:17 pm

John Platko wrote:We've gone this far so we might as well wrap up this fly paper.


10. The self and agency
[u]
In controlled situations where there cannot be sufficient causes outside the organism to make the organism release the particular action, the brain initiates behaviour from within, potentially using a two-stage process as described above. The boy ceases to play and jumps up. This sort of impulsivity is a characteristic of children every parent can attest to. We do not describe the boy's action with ‘some hidden stimuli made him jump’—he jumped of his own accord. The jump has all the qualities of a beginning. The inference of agency in ourselves, others and even inanimate objects is a central component of how we think. Assigning agency requires a concept of self. How does a brain know what is self?


How does a brain know what is food, or predator. These are tractable problems. Why should it be different for 'self'? Brains do what they do and calssify patterns, rather like Deep learning AI finds classes of patterns. Activity of the body is a key concept for the evolution of self according to Damassio. Graziano goes further suggesting that a 'theory of mind' as a model of behaviour of others in social species could be a driver for brains to begin working with 'mental states and that this trait could apply to self even better than to other. The brain learns to classify its own states as states of mind, subject states, agential states. Such models are useful and compact and it's easy to see how the model could be takes to be an actual agent in charge...
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Re: Free Will

#10154  Postby GrahamH » Oct 10, 2017 2:20 pm

John Platko wrote:Lists branching history and decision points merged with Carroll's quantum MWI, with some JP special sauce that allows real honest "could have done otherwise" with deterministic histories - and I'm thinking entanglement is going to be key.


:nono:

I think you see that there is no experience of doing otherwise, thus no direct experience of the key aspect of free will.
You imagine your freedom, you do not experience it. You imagine levitating, you cannot levitate.
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Re: Free Will

#10155  Postby John Platko » Oct 10, 2017 2:22 pm


11. Why still use the term free will today?

By providing empirical data from invertebrate model systems supporting a materialistic model of free will, I hope to at least start a thought process that abandoning the metaphysical concept of free will does not automatically entail that we are slaves of our genes and our environment, forced to always choose the same option when faced with the same situation. In fact, I am confident I have argued successfully that we would not exist if our brains were not able to make a different choice even in the face of identical circumstances and history.
In this article, I suggest re-defining the familiar free will in scientific terms rather than giving it up, only because of the historical baggage all its connotations carry with them. One may argue that ‘volition’ would be a more suitable term, less fraught with baggage. However, the current connotations of volition as ‘willpower’ or the forceful, conscious decision to behave against certain motivations render it less useful and less general a term than free will. Finally, there may be a societal value in retaining free will as a valid concept, since encouraging a belief in determinism increases cheating [103]. I agree with the criticism that retention of the term may not be ideal, but in the absence of more suitable terms, free will; remains the best option.

I no longer agree that ‘ ‘‘free will’’ is (like ‘‘life’’ and ‘‘love’’) one of those culturally useful notions that become meaningless when we try to make them ‘‘scientific’’ ’ [96]. The scientific understanding of common concepts enrich our lives, they do not impoverish them, as some have argued [100]. This is why scientists have and will continue to try and understand these concepts scientifically or at least see where and how far such attempts will lead them. It is not uncommon in science to use common terms and later realize that the familiar, intuitive understanding of these terms may not be all that accurate. Initially, we thought atoms were indivisible. Today we do not know how far we can divide matter. Initially, we thought species were groups of organisms that could be distinguished from each other by anatomical traits. Today, biologists use a wide variety of species definitions. Initially, we thought free will was a metaphysical entity. Today, I am joining a growing list of colleagues who are suggesting it is a quantitative, biological trait, a natural product of physical laws and biological evolution, a function of brains, maybe their most important one.


Ok, we did it!

:thumbup: or :thumbdown: for Björn Brembs paper?
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Re: Free Will

#10156  Postby John Platko » Oct 10, 2017 2:28 pm

GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:Lists branching history and decision points merged with Carroll's quantum MWI, with some JP special sauce that allows real honest "could have done otherwise" with deterministic histories - and I'm thinking entanglement is going to be key.


:nono:

I think you see that there is no experience of doing otherwise, thus no direct experience of the key aspect of free will.
You imagine your freedom, you do not experience it. You imagine levitating, you cannot levitate.


The experience of doing otherwise is going to be how the special sauce chooses the MWI branch that the self that freely chooses it ends up on - and that self choice may be at the expense of the hapless doppelganger versions that didn't have enough free will to make the choice.
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Re: Free Will

#10157  Postby GrahamH » Oct 10, 2017 2:30 pm

forced to always choose the same option when faced with the same situation.


What is he on about? We never face the same situation, only similar situations. That is no test of free will and does nothing to refute the proposition that "we are slaves of our genes and our environment".
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Re: Free Will

#10158  Postby GrahamH » Oct 10, 2017 2:35 pm

John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:Lists branching history and decision points merged with Carroll's quantum MWI, with some JP special sauce that allows real honest "could have done otherwise" with deterministic histories - and I'm thinking entanglement is going to be key.


:nono:

I think you see that there is no experience of doing otherwise, thus no direct experience of the key aspect of free will.
You imagine your freedom, you do not experience it. You imagine levitating, you cannot levitate.


The experience of doing otherwise is going to be how the special sauce chooses the MWI branch that the self that freely chooses it ends up on - and that self choice may be at the expense of the hapless doppelganger versions that didn't have enough free will to make the choice.


Ah, if you experienced selecting which of many worlds to jump to by splurging some special sauce you could count that as experiencing free will, if there as some way to be reliable aware of other options being chosen, but I damn sure you don't experience that. Plus we have the major problem that being compelled to take all options really doesn't seem like free will at all. I'd rather be driven by my personal circumstances here and now than what doppelgangers in other universes do.

Of course in that case it might be you that is one of countelss "hapless dopplegangers" that gets what the others leave open, whether freely willed or not. You'd never know. But of course, imaginary gods and sauces are usually the best ego fantasies with you as the good guy wining so dream on.
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Re: Free Will

#10159  Postby DavidMcC » Oct 10, 2017 2:40 pm

John Platko wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
John Platko wrote:Lists branching history and decision points merged with Carroll's quantum MWI, with some JP special sauce that allows real honest "could have done otherwise" with deterministic histories - and I'm thinking entanglement is going to be key.


:nono:

I think you see that there is no experience of doing otherwise, thus no direct experience of the key aspect of free will.
You imagine your freedom, you do not experience it. You imagine levitating, you cannot levitate.


The experience of doing otherwise is going to be how the special sauce chooses the MWI branch that the self that freely chooses it ends up on - and that self choice may be at the expense of the hapless doppelganger versions that didn't have enough free will to make the choice.

I see no valid reason to bring the nonsense of MWI in to a discussion on free will.
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Re: Free Will

#10160  Postby John Platko » Oct 10, 2017 3:48 pm

GrahamH wrote:
forced to always choose the same option when faced with the same situation.


What is he on about? We never face the same situation, only similar situations.


I think he means the same situation within experimental error. You allow for experimental error, don't you?


That is no test of free will and does nothing to refute the proposition that "we are slaves of our genes and our environment".


Obviously there are other opinions about that. He is an expert in his field. This is what the publishing journal says:

from

Articles will only be considered where they have clear relevance to fundamental biological principles and processes. All articles are sent to an Editorial Board member for an initial assessment, and may be returned to authors without in-depth peer review if the paper is unlikely to be accepted because it is either too specialized, not sufficiently novel, or is deficient in other respects.
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