So my mom came up with this idea for a philosophy club with my family because we all have different beliefs and world views from evangelical Christian to atheist (though my Christian sister doesn't know it yet), and this is a way to open up a dialogue on different topics in a non-threatening way that will hopefully eventually lead to us all being more open with each other about our individual beliefs (or non-beliefs). It's with my mom, my 4 siblings, and our significant others. We've had 4 so far and it's been great!

The last question we discussed was "what do I justly deserve?" (we pick a topic to discuss for each time).

This got into some interesting discussions on what rights people have just for being humans, but then out of the blue my sister goes "I think what we're all saying here is that none of us really deserve anything when we're born because we're all sinners, and we get all of these great things through Jesus."

The room got really silent, it took everyone by surprise because nobody was saying that at all! I was shocked that she was interpreting what we were saying like that. I stuttered out something like "I don't agree with that, because babies are innocent"...I couldn't think of a good response.

What would you have said?

I want her to start thinking more skeptically about her beliefs, I think our stunned reaction to that statement might have surprised her, because she didn't say anything more on that topic, but I wish I had come up with something better that would really get her thinking.'

We all take turns hosting, and my turn is still a couple of months away, but I'm trying to think of a topic that will make all of my family members be more skeptical. The last one I did was "what do I know", and we talked about evidence, etc.

Next time I'm thinking I might do something about randomness and pattern recognition, to get people thinking skeptically about prayer and superstition, but I'm having trouble thinking of ways to formulate that into a philosophical question. Any ideas?

Lots of questions I know, sorry! But I highly recommend doing something like this with your family or friends...it's really fun and a great way to discuss issues without feeling offended if someone disagrees with you, and we often get into discussions about the environment, feminism, education, etc.

What would you have said?

It would depend upon the context of what had actually been said, and the most likely means by which I thought she had misconstrued that. One thing I do often find in philosophical discussion in the 'wild', so to speak, is that people tend not to be as rigorous in their terminology and patterns of speech, so the first thing I would want to ask would be whether she meant that this was what she actually thought the other people within the discussion were saying or whether she meant to say something along the lines of that what people were saying within the discussion was compatible/ not incompatible with that view.

I want her to start thinking more skeptically about her beliefs, I think our stunned reaction to that statement might have surprised her, because she didn't say anything more on that topic, but I wish I had come up with something better that would really get her thinking.'

As a general rule I think that in a live discussion you have more success in asking people to clarify what they mean than by trying to rebut what they say. Firstly because it is less threatening, and so the other person is less likely to be defensive and shut down, and secondly, because it forces them to think about the best way to express their thoughts in a way which they might not normally do in the less rigorous context of socializing in general. Finally, I think that when someone has trouble formulating an expression of their thoughts which they themselves find meaningful and to the point, it encourages them to think about what it is in the nature of their thoughts that makes it so difficult to substantively argue. I often find myself that if I have trouble expressing something with clarity it is because there is some error in my reasoning which I had overlooked.

Lots of questions I know, sorry! But I highly recommend doing something like this with your family or friends...it's really fun and a great way to discuss issues without feeling offended if someone disagrees with you, and we often get into discussions about the environment, feminism, education, etc.

I'm convinced I utterly torture my poor girlfriend with some of the madcap ideas on this, that and everything I come up with form time to time. She is however, an excellent sounding board, and is very acute at pointing out the flaws and alternative views. I love to run things by her, because her expression when I say something truly dumb is better than 20 pages of rebuttal.

EnlightningLinZ wrote:out of the blue my sister goes "I think what we're all saying here is that none of us really deserve anything when we're born because we're all sinners, and we get all of these great things through Jesus."

Tell your 'sister` not to listen to such sentimental nonsense. Ask her, assuming 'Jesus' doles out the goodies, what did these babies do to deserve this. Saying Jesus' didn't do it is a cop out, Jesus made the babies that did this ..

Jef - good points, I know I have to remind myself that asking people to define things, and asking them questions to clarify...it's hard to remember that when sometimes what you really want to do is just tell them how wrong they are! Good advice.

ymitchell - I guess it's easy for a Canadian upper middle class white Christian to hold those beliefs when they never have to be confronted with the reality that brutal things are happening to innocent children all of the time.