The Currency of our Reality

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#61  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 29, 2010 3:24 pm

Wezentrommel wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:Searle and information. I'm thinking about it. Will post. Let's just keep my definition and concept of information in mind and try not to get confused about things like observers and communication.


There is no information without an observer, Information is an observer-dependent. You will never understand this discussion until you understand what that means.

"Tree rings are information about the age of the tree only to someone who can interpret or use it as such. If you strip away the observers and interpreters then the notion becomes empty, because now everything has information in it". John Searle, The Mystery of Consciousness, 1997.


Yes. The standard definition of information. How many fucking times do I have to tell y'all that that's not what the FUCK I am talking about.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#62  Postby Wezentrommel » Jun 29, 2010 3:55 pm



Your kind of an excitable guy. I do sort of remember him saying this. About reading Searle. I have read about three papers. I prefer reading real neuroscience and don't have much time for philosloppy. I get as far as the first suit-case word being pulled out of someones ass without analysis and I sort of disregard most of what they say thereafter.


I think what you mean is that you are as thick as pigshit and lazy with it. I really do wish you would stop soiling this PHILOSOPHY FORUM with your presence. Why don't you fuck off to the neuroscience forum if that is what you are interested in?
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#63  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 29, 2010 4:00 pm

Wezentrommel wrote:

4. Compare airplane wings and eagles' wings. The wings of an airplane are designed by human engineers for a purpose: to generate lift so that a heavier-than-air craft can become airborne. They are for flying. Now it might seem that the same is true of eagle's wings: they too are for flying. This is true, but only relative to us. Because we value mobility and survival, we project onto the eagles' wings the function of being for flying and escaping predators. Searle's point, however, is that nothing in nature intrinsically has a function. He is not saying that airplane wings have a purpose while eagles' wings don't: they both have a purpose, but it is observer-relative. In a world without beings like us, bird's wings and birds' nests would exist and have causes and effects but lack functions.


Well done. Now take the purpose, communication, and human out of some set of the physical world that has informational content to us and tell me what is left. What can be said about the screwdriver when you fall of the edge of the blade? What is that boundary? (jagged if you must)
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#64  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 29, 2010 4:03 pm

Wezentrommel wrote:


Your kind of an excitable guy. I do sort of remember him saying this. About reading Searle. I have read about three papers. I prefer reading real neuroscience and don't have much time for philosloppy. I get as far as the first suit-case word being pulled out of someones ass without analysis and I sort of disregard most of what they say thereafter.


I think what you mean is that you are as thick as pigshit and lazy with it. I really do wish you would stop soiling this PHILOSOPHY FORUM with your presence. Why don't you fuck off to the neuroscience forum if that is what you are interested in?


Becasue you poor souls need my help. You would wonder in the shit of your bad definitions and missing analytics forever were it not for the light that modern neuroscience can shed on your plight. Consider me the shepherd who after 2000 years of watching you poor fucks wonder in the desert of shit is here to lead you to the highlands.

BTW. I started this thread why are you here?
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#65  Postby Chrisw » Jun 29, 2010 9:01 pm

Wezentrommel wrote:There is no information without an observer, Information is an observer-dependent. You will never understand this discussion until you understand what that means.

"Tree rings are information about the age of the tree only to someone who can interpret or use it as such. If you strip away the observers and interpreters then the notion becomes empty, because now everything has information in it". John Searle, The Mystery of Consciousness, 1997.

Not really. Few philosophers who are actually interested in information or computing would agree with Searle here. He's right at one end of the spectrum in his extreme subjectivism about information. He gets quoted a lot because he gives a nice clear exposition of a clearly identifiable position. He's good for getting discussion going. But few people would want to try to defend his position.

At the other extreme we have the people (they tend to be physicists and mathematicians) who want to make information the primary constituent of reality. This makes even less sense to me. If information is about relations between things then there have to be things that are not themselves information for there to be relations between. It can't be information all the way down.

Searle's general attitide towards all things computer-related seems to be one of airy dismisal. He's the smart philosopher putting all the dumb technicians straight. His arguments are shallow and obvious and he simply repeats himself rather than respond to objections. The "everything is information" crowd also have nothing very interesting to say about information as a physical phenomenon and its place in the world (because to them information isn't a phenomenon found in the world, it is the foundation of the world and the way you encounter information is by doing mathematics).

Just to be clear about the extremity of Searle's position, here is a quotation:

Searle wrote:It follows that you could not discover that the brain or anything else was intrinsically a digital computer, although you could assign a computational interpretation to it as you could to anything else. The point is not that the claim "The brain is a digital computer" is false. Rather it does not get up to the level of falsehood. It does not have a clear sense.

...for example the wall behind my back is right now implementing the Wordstar program, because there is some pattern of molecule movements which is isomorphic with the formal structure of Wordstar. But if the wall is implementing Wordstar then if it is a big enough wall it is implementing any program, including any program implemented in the brain.

I don't really need to go to the trouble of providing an argument against that do I?
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#66  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 29, 2010 9:11 pm

Chrisw wrote:
At the other extreme we have the people (they tend to be physicists and mathematicians) who want to make information the primary constituent of reality. This makes even less sense to me. If information is about relations between things then there have to be things that are not themselves information for there to be relations between. It can't be information all the way down.


I would like to ty and convince you differently.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#67  Postby ColonelZen » Jun 30, 2010 2:41 am

Wezentrommel wrote:
1. Some features of a thing are intrinsic to it. The mass of an object, for example, is intrinsic to it. What that means, roughly, is that it is not in virtue of a relation to anything else that a massive thing has its mass. By contrast, weight is not intrinsic since the weight of an object depends on the gravitational field it is in: a thing of invariant mass has different weights on the earth and on the moon. The relevant principle here is Newton's Second Law: F=ma. Weight is a force.

Suppose the object is a screwdriver. Its being a screwdriver is not intrinsic but relational: it is only in relation to an observer or user or fabricator that a screwdriver is a screwdriver. Of course, nothing can be a screwdriver unless it has certain intrinsic properties that fit it to play this functional role: one cannot make a screwdriver out of ice or spaghetti. Not even an Eskimo or an Italian could do it. But the property of being a screwdriver is not intrinsic to the object. It is an observer-relative feature. This is not to say that I can make a thing a screwdriver just by wishing it to be one or thinking it to be one. The point is that nothing is a screwdriver apart from a context of tools (ein Zeugzusammenhang as Heidegger would say) which refers necessarily to tool-users, purposive beings such as us.

As Searle puts it, the property of being a screwdriver is epistemically objective but ontologically subjective. (p. 10) Thus it is objectively true that the tool in my hand is a screwdriver, but its being a screwdriver necessarily involves a reference to a subject who uses it as such. Nothing is a screwdriver or a jackhammer or a modem intrinsically.

Here is a rough-and-ready test to determine whether a property is intrinsic or observer-relative: Could the property exist if there had never been any human beings or other sorts of sentient beings? (p. 11) The property of being a screwdriver could not exist (be instantiated) in a world in which there were no sentient beings. This ought to be obvious. A screwdriver is an artifact designed for the purpose of inserting screws by beings who make plans and have purposes. In a world without such purposive beings there would be no tools of any kind. There might be rocks, ponds, fires, and forests, but no paperweights, swimming holes, heaters, or fuel sources.


Wow. Talk about missing the point. Yes "function" is purely a construct of an analytic mind; there is no "function" in nature. Even a screwdriver does not have a "function" in it's noumenal being. It is an elongated object with a larger cylindrical haft at one end, and a narrow, usually metal, shaft terminating in a flattened taper. It can exist from the moment it takes its form in a factory or tool shop until it rusts apart in some junk yard somewhere a century or two hence without ever driving a screw. And it is not "less" a screwdriver in such case.

When we talk of a functional definition or reduction of consciousness we are NOT asserting that there is some intrinsic "function" in nature. We are asserting that human consciousness and intelligence can and will be "reduced" to a structured set of "functions" each of which will be understandable in terms of physically realizable information process and which collectively will have strong explanatory and predictive powers, and which functions will ultimately (when our understanding is complete, but increasingly more so as we augment and correct our functional models) map back to real material structures and processes we will find in the physical brain.

Functionalism is nothing more - and nothing less - than the assertion that the human mind, including reports of internal, purely subjective experiences, is scientifically comprehensible as the product of the likewise scientifically comprehensible physical brain.

Searle is analyzing an epistemology as if it were asserted as an ontology. Of course that doesn't work.

For a final check if the ultimate flaw in Searle's analysis, does a mitochondrian have a function in a cell? Ontologically, no - it just is; rather complex chemistry doing its thing. But epistemologically to minds who want to understand the cell, of course it does. So does the anterior cingulate have a function in the brain? How about to the mind?

So it seems that Searle is dead wrong and completely falsified in this instance. There are "functions" which properly and usefully describe the actions of parts of brains and minds. Those looking for a reason to assert an unbreachable mystery in the workings of minds and brains will have to find a better argument.

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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#68  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 30, 2010 12:54 pm

ColonelZen wrote:

Searle is analyzing an epistemology as if it were asserted as an ontology. Of course that doesn't work.

For a final check if the ultimate flaw in Searle's analysis, does a mitochondrian have a function in a cell? Ontologically, no - it just is; rather complex chemistry doing its thing. But epistemologically to minds who want to understand the cell, of course it does. So does the anterior cingulate have a function in the brain? How about to the mind?


I wonder if we are having a similar problem with understanding this information thing. Even deciding on the reality of numbers has similarities.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#69  Postby Chrisw » Jun 30, 2010 1:18 pm

ColonelZen wrote:Wow. Talk about missing the point. Yes "function" is purely a construct of an analytic mind; there is no "function" in nature.

Actually I can't even agree with that. I don't think bees have anything we would refer to as a "mind" but would anyone deny that the dance of the honeybee has the function of indicating food sources? It's an activity that makes no sense without using functional language. And what's more it had this function before there were any sentient humans to make the observation.

Even more primitively, we can say that genes have functions, that they code for identifiable features. Talk of functions is pervasive in biology and it doesn't imply any kind of mind or psychological motivation.

Of course it is true that the meaning of a piece of information depends on the context in which it is embedded. A gene is only a gene for blue eyes because it has the effect of causing blue eyes when present in the right place on the genome in the cells of the right kind of creature. But saying that the meaning of information is a systemic or holistic matter is not at all the same as saying that it is arbitrary or subjective or mind-dependent.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#70  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 30, 2010 1:21 pm

Chrisw wrote:
ColonelZen wrote:Wow. Talk about missing the point. Yes "function" is purely a construct of an analytic mind; there is no "function" in nature.

Actually I can't even agree with that. I don't think bees have anything we would refer to as a "mind" but would anyone deny that the dance of the honeybee has the function of indicating food sources? It's an activity that makes no sense without using functional language. And what's more it had this function before there were any sentient humans to make the observation.


I think a few of us who really do agree with each other are talking past one another. For interesting reasons. I'm pretty sure you DO agree with him.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#71  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 30, 2010 2:43 pm

Wezentrommel wrote:


Your kind of an excitable guy. I do sort of remember him saying this. About reading Searle. I have read about three papers. I prefer reading real neuroscience and don't have much time for philosloppy. I get as far as the first suit-case word being pulled out of someones ass without analysis and I sort of disregard most of what they say thereafter.


I think what you mean is that you are as thick as pigshit and lazy with it. I really do wish you would stop soiling this PHILOSOPHY FORUM with your presence. Why don't you fuck off to the neuroscience forum if that is what you are interested in?


Well. I had to wait for some moderator input on this before I could respond. First you don't seem to understand much about what it being said here or what my purpose if for this thread. Could be that I am not a great communicator or it could be that you have certain stubborn beliefs that prevent you from seeing. Could also be a question of what you are capable of.

I would prefer, and I mean this most respectfully, that you fuck off.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#72  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jun 30, 2010 3:11 pm

The idea of this thread is to look at why we find it so hard to accept what science has found out about C. I have a very different way of looking at my own consciousness than most. Apparently. I believe we have already found the NCC and I accept it but most don't.

Now this idea of information being observer dependent. Yes. In the standard derivation it is . The word comes from a latin idea of forming something in one's mind. But I'm am using it in a different way. I am trying to find a word for what it is about things that make a thing here in one place in space/time but not another. I'm talking about the fact of variation from one point to the next. The fact that the universe would be a homogeneous pudding where it not for this clustering of things.

We get into all sorts of problems when we say things like 'information IS' or 'matter IS'. This whole ISness business. It works real well when we have a slab of butter and we can accept that it is butter. But looking deeper into the problem we see that butter IS made of a bunch of things. But then we get down to the point where all those things seem to be ISing just electrons, protons, and neutrons. Looking deeper we find that we aren't really sure what the hell those things are either.

All we know for sure is that there is a slab of butter HERE on the table NOW and then over here or maybe later there IS NOT. I'm calling that peculiar thing information. For lack of a better word.

Now if we get all done with physics we may find that that thing I'm formulating IS all there IS. That in some geometry there is a single property of being and not-being and the dimensionality of this geometry folds into 4D so as to give us this rich sense of there being many colorful things.

I don't know if that will turn out to be the case but it's fun to think about. I do think that when we get to this level that the idea of substance and matter is useless.

One thing I do not want to do is muddy the waters by getting into this shit about observers and minds making things and things only being real in minds. When one is trying to mate science with mind this just gets us confused.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#73  Postby 95Theses » Jun 30, 2010 11:19 pm

Wezentrommel wrote:


Your kind of an excitable guy. I do sort of remember him saying this. About reading Searle. I have read about three papers. I prefer reading real neuroscience and don't have much time for philosloppy. I get as far as the first suit-case word being pulled out of someones ass without analysis and I sort of disregard most of what they say thereafter.


I think what you mean is that you are as thick as pigshit and lazy with it. I really do wish you would stop soiling this PHILOSOPHY FORUM with your presence. Why don't you fuck off to the neuroscience forum if that is what you are interested in?



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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#74  Postby Steve » Jul 01, 2010 2:39 am

Gonna chime in with my uneducated (with respect to philosophical history and big words) point of view. As I hang out here, and at RDF, I am trying to reconcile my own experience with the ways people talk about reality. I am rather curious what people think is the consequence of a monist point of view? What does it mean to be monist? It seems to me there is nothing much to be said about monism as it is solipsist - there is no differentiation of me from anything else so to say nothing else exists is as silly as saying I am everything. "I" has no meaning. "Other" has no meaning. And when it comes to building a mental idea of the ultimate fullness of actual reality a monist concept is the only one that makes sense to me.

Within monism as I think of it there is no such thing as information - there is just process. There is no cause or effect as these are simply explanations that complement each other - we can say the ball bounced because of the air pressure within it or because it was thrown against the wall or because the universe is made the way it is. There are a vast number of "causes" all depending on the "effect" one is trying to explain. Cause and effect are not monist - they are dualist. They require reality be split. And information is all about explanation, cause and effect. It is fundamentally dualist.

The mind is also dualist. It creates a split between what is seen and who is seeing and we create a sense of "I" as separate. And now "I" can head out and collect information as I correlate all the causes and effects I see.

The Hindu call this maya - illusion. Ramana Maharshi said it directly - "Mind is maya." I really don't think these mystics were merely delusional tossers of word salad. I think they had a very clear monist point of view. And a lot of the conflicts inherent in a dualist view - where is this "I" that is seeing the world? where is the chair whose image I hold so clearly in my mind? - all disappear.

But I do not think the monist POV is particularly effective at cooking dinner. It is quite useful to resolve the dinner process with the implementation of some useful dualist thinking. Go shopping, heat the meat, steam the veges. If I recall the great mystics rarely get KP duty, and if they did I wonder how long they would do it. I suspect they would be very plain cooks and no one would line up for the delights of their cooking. I am sure they would be very capable - they simply wouldn't care that much when a simple meal would nourish and delight them as much as a complex meal with cleverly combined flavors and aromas. The mystics do tend to live extremely, some might say austere, lives. But should they decide to set about a culinary work of art I have no doubt they would do it with the skilled application of dualist thinking where they apply all the knowledge their experience could muster.

So I think the word "knowledge" is not what you are after SOS - perhaps "process" is the term. Reality is ultimately monist, and since "information" is necessarily dualist it won't work. What is needed is a monist term. Information gets processed. When we cook dinner there is the process of cooking - it has the capacity to encompass the entirety of reality into the process.

My thinking is not yet complete so I am gonna stop there. Maybe get some feed back. Maybe get my ass handed to me LOL.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#75  Postby SpeedOfSound » Jul 01, 2010 2:54 am

Steve wrote:
So I think the word "knowledge" is not what you are after SOS - perhaps "process" is the term. Reality is ultimately monist, and since "information" is necessarily dualist it won't work. What is needed is a monist term. Information gets processed. When we cook dinner there is the process of cooking - it has the capacity to encompass the entirety of reality into the process.

My thinking is not yet complete so I am gonna stop there. Maybe get some feed back. Maybe get my ass handed to me LOL.


I'd say the only thing you don't have right here is your interpretation of what I am saying about information. Mine is clearly monist and devoid of any anthropic perspective. Nor is it separate from process. Process in the time dimension is just treated as the other dimensions and reduces thus to pure information or variation.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#76  Postby iamthereforeithink » Jul 01, 2010 3:25 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Steve wrote:
So I think the word "knowledge" is not what you are after SOS - perhaps "process" is the term. Reality is ultimately monist, and since "information" is necessarily dualist it won't work. What is needed is a monist term. Information gets processed. When we cook dinner there is the process of cooking - it has the capacity to encompass the entirety of reality into the process.

My thinking is not yet complete so I am gonna stop there. Maybe get some feed back. Maybe get my ass handed to me LOL.


I'd say the only thing you don't have right here is your interpretation of what I am saying about information. Mine is clearly monist and devoid of any anthropic perspective. Nor is it separate from process. Process in the time dimension is just treated as the other dimensions and reduces thus to pure information or variation.


Word Salad? Does that actually mean something?
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#77  Postby Steve » Jul 01, 2010 3:26 am

See - I fail to see how information can be anything but dualist. In reality there is no such thing as knowledge, nor ignorance. There is only the processing.

What I DO see is the power of dualism. And I do think science, being very pure in its dualism, will shed some great light on this processing just as it has in so many other areas.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#78  Postby Steve » Jul 01, 2010 3:29 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:Process in the time dimension is just treated as the other dimensions and reduces thus to pure information or variation.

Dimensions are dualist they are information. In monism there is no dimension - no separation. Cause and effect are the same thing. The only time is now.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#79  Postby iamthereforeithink » Jul 01, 2010 3:38 am

Steve wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:Process in the time dimension is just treated as the other dimensions and reduces thus to pure information or variation.

Dimensions are dualist they are information. In monism there is no dimension - no separation. Cause and effect are the same thing. The only time is now.


Wow! You were actually able to parse that and comment on it.

I do think that you guys are talking about different kinds of monism. SOS seems to be talking about physicalism or monistic naturalism, while you appear to be talking about monistic idealism.
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Re: The Currency of our Reality

#80  Postby Steve » Jul 01, 2010 3:49 am

iamthereforeithink wrote:

I do think that you guys are talking about different kinds of monism. SOS seems to be talking about physicalism or monistic naturalism, while you appear to be talking about monistic idealism.

Can you explain the difference? I will allow I do embrace a subjective point of view which is not anthropomorphic - to the extent it is capable a rock has a subjective point of view. It gets created in the bowels of the earth under great pressure and heat. Its properties are dependent on its environment - what minerals are present at the time it forms etc. And it may get exposed to the air, and the rain, and all in all have quite a time before it finally dissolves back to its basic elements. No - it doesn't "think". But it does have a life in the sense it is created and then dies. And yes - that description is loaded with dualism. I see no reason why monism should deny dualism.
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