SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
What can you say for sure about what you experienced one hour ago? For what do you have solid evidence?

What I remember, which is, I suggest, all you ever get. (possibly augmented by notes) As Dennett points out, if there is no arrival point there is no definitive ordering of subjective events, no singular moment of experience, only what gets resolved and written to memory.

i.e. a continuous process of confabulation/attribution telling the story of a subject having rich and wondrous experiences.

So you are saying the very same thing I am yet you don't agree with me. Good Job!

There is no proof of your having experienced or not experienced anything.

You move around a lot so it's hard to say whether I disagree with you or not.

How does the brain produce conscious experience? Are you agreeing with what I wrote in that quote? I think it contradicts most of your other posts. Perhaps you could summarise your current position.

I think the situation is that we do not agree on what this knowledge business is all about. I don't think you Graham, have thought about it much. You are still using some nebulous folk concept.

GrahamH wrote:...

How does the brain produce conscious experience? ...

I would never ask that question so there is no answer. Not sure how you reconcile that with what you just wrote above.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:...

How does the brain produce conscious experience? ...

I would never ask that question so there is no answer. Not sure how you reconcile that with what you just wrote above.

You seem to have a lot of problems with answering questions about consciousness.

a continuous process of confabulation/attribution telling the story of a subject having rich and wondrous experiences.

SpeedOfSound wrote:I think the situation is that we do not agree on what this knowledge business is all about. I don't think you Graham, have thought about it much. You are still using some nebulous folk concept.

No, you seem to have some notion of high level subjective cognition about objects and I suggest a low-level 'cognit' of interconnected detectors integrated into behavioural control.

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:...

How does the brain produce conscious experience? ...

I would never ask that question so there is no answer. Not sure how you reconcile that with what you just wrote above.

You seem to have a lot of problems with answering questions about consciousness.

a continuous process of confabulation/attribution telling the story of a subject having rich and wondrous experiences.

Particularly if they make no sense.

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:I think the situation is that we do not agree on what this knowledge business is all about. I don't think you Graham, have thought about it much. You are still using some nebulous folk concept.

No, you seem to have some notion of high level subjective cognition about objects and I suggest a low-level 'cognit' of interconnected detectors integrated into behavioural control.

That is a naive but useful description of a brain. A physical description. I don't suggest this, I insist on it.

But the subject of consciousness is about a bridge from that to the subjective. My current position is that there is subjective evidence and that we must accommodate it. So how do you bridge from your naive detector model to SE?

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:...

How does the brain produce conscious experience? ...

I would never ask that question so there is no answer. Not sure how you reconcile that with what you just wrote above.

You seem to have a lot of problems with answering questions about consciousness.

a continuous process of confabulation/attribution telling the story of a subject having rich and wondrous experiences.

Particularly if they make no sense.

What a joke. Terms that you yourself use about dream recollection suddenly become nonsense when I suggest the same applies to experience in general. You do that a lot.Your mission is to disagree.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:I think the situation is that we do not agree on what this knowledge business is all about. I don't think you Graham, have thought about it much. You are still using some nebulous folk concept.

No, you seem to have some notion of high level subjective cognition about objects and I suggest a low-level 'cognit' of interconnected detectors integrated into behavioural control.

That is a naive but useful description of a brain. A physical description. I don't suggest this, I insist on it.

But the subject of consciousness is about a bridge from that to the subjective. My current position is that there is subjective evidence and that we must accommodate it. So how do you bridge from your naive detector model to SE?

WTF is 'the subjective'?

You want to build a bridge to the skycastle?

You should review my bit on cognits above before you start throwing the term around. Maybe go read Fuster too.

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

I would never ask that question so there is no answer. Not sure how you reconcile that with what you just wrote above.

You seem to have a lot of problems with answering questions about consciousness.

a continuous process of confabulation/attribution telling the story of a subject having rich and wondrous experiences.

Particularly if they make no sense.

What a joke. Terms that you yourself use about dream recollection suddenly become nonsense when I suggest the same applies to experience in general. You do that a lot.Your mission is to disagree.

If I have somewhere used the phrase 'brain produces (or constructs) consciousness' then after carefully reviewing the context I may have to admit to fucking up. Given our crappy language I wouldn't be surprised if I fucked up a lot. But I fuck up nowhere near as often as you.

Do you think you asked a sensible question here?

How does the brain produce conscious experience?

GrahamH wrote:...
WTF is 'the subjective'?
...

Probably has something to do with your nonsensical question about the brain producing products labeled 'consious experience'. But this is the challenge here; to define that thing and look at how it's evidence. If it turns out to be.

I'll tell you what./ If you can answer your own question then I will see what I can do about it.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

You seem to have a lot of problems with answering questions about consciousness.

Particularly if they make no sense.

What a joke. Terms that you yourself use about dream recollection suddenly become nonsense when I suggest the same applies to experience in general. You do that a lot.Your mission is to disagree.

If I have somewhere used the phrase 'brain produces (or constructs) consciousness' then after carefully reviewing the context I may have to admit to fucking up. Given our crappy language I wouldn't be surprised if I fucked up a lot. But I fuck up nowhere near as often as you.

Do you think you asked a sensible question here?

How does the brain produce conscious experience?

Here you go:

SpeedOfSound wrote:I was actually saying my odd views on dreams are bound up in the thing about HC playback.

It's a little bit bound to consciousness too, in hindsight. We do not and probably cannot ever prove that we do or do not experience dreams in the same way we cannot prove that we did or did not experience something in even the most recent past. So we have no subjective evidence for these things. I can confabulate an experience that I did not have and I can fail to put down memories for one I did have.

Can brains confabulate experiences, or not? What do you say?

SpeedOfSound wrote:I'll tell you what./ If you can answer your own question then I will see what I can do about it.

That's cheating! You'd only crib it from him.

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Particularly if they make no sense.

What a joke. Terms that you yourself use about dream recollection suddenly become nonsense when I suggest the same applies to experience in general. You do that a lot.Your mission is to disagree.

If I have somewhere used the phrase 'brain produces (or constructs) consciousness' then after carefully reviewing the context I may have to admit to fucking up. Given our crappy language I wouldn't be surprised if I fucked up a lot. But I fuck up nowhere near as often as you.

Do you think you asked a sensible question here?

How does the brain produce conscious experience?

Here you go:

SpeedOfSound wrote:I was actually saying my odd views on dreams are bound up in the thing about HC playback.

It's a little bit bound to consciousness too, in hindsight. We do not and probably cannot ever prove that we do or do not experience dreams in the same way we cannot prove that we did or did not experience something in even the most recent past. So we have no subjective evidence for these things. I can confabulate an experience that I did not have and I can fail to put down memories for one I did have.

Can brains confabulate experiences, or not? What do you say?

Look again. That's about all I can tell you.

Clue. Look for the word 'brain' in that paragraph you clipped.

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

What a joke. Terms that you yourself use about dream recollection suddenly become nonsense when I suggest the same applies to experience in general. You do that a lot.Your mission is to disagree.

If I have somewhere used the phrase 'brain produces (or constructs) consciousness' then after carefully reviewing the context I may have to admit to fucking up. Given our crappy language I wouldn't be surprised if I fucked up a lot. But I fuck up nowhere near as often as you.

Do you think you asked a sensible question here?

How does the brain produce conscious experience?

Here you go:

SpeedOfSound wrote:I was actually saying my odd views on dreams are bound up in the thing about HC playback.

It's a little bit bound to consciousness too, in hindsight. We do not and probably cannot ever prove that we do or do not experience dreams in the same way we cannot prove that we did or did not experience something in even the most recent past. So we have no subjective evidence for these things. I can confabulate an experience that I did not have and I can fail to put down memories for one I did have.

Can brains confabulate experiences, or not? What do you say?

Look again. That's about all I can tell you.

Clue. Look for the word 'brain' in that paragraph you clipped.

Ah ha! Do you mean your conscious mind, not your brain, confabulates experiences? Is that what you mean?

So lets' see Graham. You complain and hoot and holler every time I use the word subjective or the word experience and then you use the same SE-domain words all over the place, mixed with physical descriptions. In the same sentence. It seems obvious that you just want to hoot and holler and disagree with me. I have threatened you somehow.

Now you said you didn't know what my position was just a few posts ago yet instead of watching me develop my position you want to hoot and holler as if you already know my position.

A bit inconsistent don't ya think?

But! I have some other work and we have all week long for you to answer your own question. How DO brains produce conscious experience? How do you get form PHY-Domain to SE-Domain? In one sentence? I am truly going to listen. You have the floor.

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

GrahamH wrote:

SpeedOfSound wrote:

If I have somewhere used the phrase 'brain produces (or constructs) consciousness' then after carefully reviewing the context I may have to admit to fucking up. Given our crappy language I wouldn't be surprised if I fucked up a lot. But I fuck up nowhere near as often as you.

Do you think you asked a sensible question here?

Here you go:

SpeedOfSound wrote:I was actually saying my odd views on dreams are bound up in the thing about HC playback.

It's a little bit bound to consciousness too, in hindsight. We do not and probably cannot ever prove that we do or do not experience dreams in the same way we cannot prove that we did or did not experience something in even the most recent past. So we have no subjective evidence for these things. I can confabulate an experience that I did not have and I can fail to put down memories for one I did have.

Can brains confabulate experiences, or not? What do you say?

Look again. That's about all I can tell you.

Clue. Look for the word 'brain' in that paragraph you clipped.

Ah ha! Do you mean your conscious mind, not your brain, confabulates experiences? Is that what you mean?

Can you read at all?

I can confabulate an experience...

SpeedOfSound wrote:So lets' see Graham. You complain and hoot and holler every time I use the word subjective or the word experience and then you use the same SE-domain words all over the place, mixed with physical descriptions. In the same sentence. It seems obvious that you just want to hoot and holler and disagree with me. I have threatened you somehow.

Now you said you didn't know what my position was just a few posts ago yet instead of watching me develop my position you want to hoot and holler as if you already know my position.

A bit inconsistent don't ya think?

But! I have some other work and we have all week long for you to answer your own question. How DO brains produce conscious experience? How do you get form PHY-Domain to SE-Domain? In one sentence? I am truly going to listen. You have the floor.

Oh, if only you would 'develop your position'. But you don't do that, you take cheap shots at me!

Now you want me to go around jumping back through your hoops again? No thanks. Go back to my precis post and engage with it, if you like. Or develop some ideas of your own, if you can. Post your precis. You could even answer some questions now and then!