It's only depressing if you had higher expectations. Which mankind unfortunately have "grown up with".

iamthereforeithink wrote:

Reeve wrote:

iamthereforeithink wrote:Isn't it a good thing though, that we have reached a stage in our evolution where we are able to spend a large portion of our time mulling the objective meaning of our lives in the context of the eventual heat death of the universe? In earlier times, much of our lives' meaning was provided by our endeavor to stay alive, which was seen as being objectively better that being dead. If you didn't fall victim to the forces of nature, diseases, epidemics, wild animals or enemy invasions could get you. That is, if you didn't die during childbirth, like most other infants.

And what a depressing conclusion we seemed to have finally reached after all those years.

Well you could choose to be depressed that no-one outside our universe cares about what we do

You can't have something "outside" of everything that exists, and even if you could, I wouldn't care about whatever that was supposed to be - if it has no affect on me.

or you could choose to be elated that a lot of people inside our universe DO care about what we do.

The depressing part is that there won't always be people around to care.

iamthereforeithink wrote:Isn't it a good thing though, that we have reached a stage in our evolution where we are able to spend a large portion of our time mulling the objective meaning of our lives in the context of the eventual heat death of the universe? In earlier times, much of our lives' meaning was provided by our endeavor to stay alive, which was seen as being objectively better that being dead. If you didn't fall victim to the forces of nature, diseases, epidemics, wild animals or enemy invasions could get you. That is, if you didn't die during childbirth, like most other infants.

I couldn't agree more - it's reading books like the Culture series by Banks that caused such thoughts to blossom for me. A long view perhaps, and an indication of what the future holds.

John P. M. wrote:It's only depressing if you had higher expectations. Which mankind unfortunately have "grown up with".

And isn't pathetic that us humans aren't in control of how high our expectations can go? It looks like our highest expectation can only be that there's some last poor soul to say "Well that was nice." as he falls into a black hole.

Spearthrower wrote:
I couldn't agree more - it's reading books like the Culture series by Banks that caused such thoughts to blossom for me. A long view perhaps, and an indication of what the future holds.

I haven't read the Culture series, but the Wikipedia description does sound interesting. On my reading list for later in the year, perhaps.

Reeve wrote:

John P. M. wrote:It's only depressing if you had higher expectations. Which mankind unfortunately have "grown up with".

And isn't pathetic that us humans aren't in control of how high our expectations can go? It looks like our highest expectation can only be that there's some last poor soul to say "Well that was nice." as he falls into a black hole.

I haven't read the 6 pages here, but christ on a popsicle stick - be here now. You're feeling depressed? That is your doing... Having a blast at the end of the party as you drop into that final black hole? What more could you ask for? To get the best blast do the right thing now. Just made a mess of something? Then learn from it - try again and try to do it better.

The problem is not that the world will end, the problem is that you feel miserable about it and maybe feel like staying in bed. In other words it is about how you feel, and being trapped in those feelings. You imprison yourself as you have no control over yourself. So practice self control, it can set you free.

By the way - I suck at it, but we won't go into details. At least I can recognize the actual problem.

Steve wrote:
I haven't read the 6 pages here, but christ on a popsicle stick - be here now. You're feeling depressed? That is your doing

Who knew thinking rationally could make you feel sad

... Having a blast at the end of the party as you drop into that final black hole? What more could you ask for?

Lots more.

Just made a mess of something? Then learn from it - try again and try to do it better.

I haven't made a mess of anything. Actually, I'm on top of everything at the moment, so I don't see what that's got to do with the ultimate fate of humanity.

The problem is not that the world will end,

That is the problem. How can you sit well knowing that everything you've ever done amounts to space dust? Well you probably have some rationalisation but then you need one - you didn't chose the universe to be this way. You have to accept. And you have to feel good about it. We can't pass on our genes if we're feeling down, now can we?

the problem is that you feel miserable about it and maybe feel like staying in bed.

I don't feel like staying in bed - I'm studying as I type this

In other words it is about how you feel, and being trapped in those feelings. You imprison yourself as you have no control over yourself. So practice self control, it can set you free.

I am in control. How did this go from the validity of meaning for humanity in a universe where humanity will not last forever to my supposed psychology?

Reeve wrote:Come on people, surely you know that if we had the opportunity to choose between "non-temporary meaning" and "temporary meaning"; we would all be leaping for the non-temporary one. Why is that? Because the only reason why we formulate reasons as to why things "do actually matter afterall!" is because we want to feel better about that fact that our fleeting existence is forced upon on us.

No way - which would you prefer.. a LEGO set that some moron has superglued together into a fixed shape or a bag of bricks that you can actually play with and experiment ?

No argument here - a pile of random bricks for me and just about everyone I know.

byofrcs wrote:

Reeve wrote:Come on people, surely you know that if we had the opportunity to choose between "non-temporary meaning" and "temporary meaning"; we would all be leaping for the non-temporary one. Why is that? Because the only reason why we formulate reasons as to why things "do actually matter afterall!" is because we want to feel better about that fact that our fleeting existence is forced upon on us.

No way - which would you prefer.. a LEGO set that some moron has superglued together into a fixed shape or a bag of bricks that you can actually play with and experiment ?

Who said anything about some other moron playing with our LEGO?

No argument here - a pile of random bricks for me and just about everyone I know.

I agree with you. But I'd rather get to keep on playing with the LEGO instead of it being put away eventually.

Plus you will never remember that you played with Legos, or that there were Legos, or that there ever was a you. Because you cease to exist. POOF and you're gone. Nothing will have mattered in the end. Maybe we can pretend like it matters now, but the reality is it doesn't. Nothing will be accomplished. Everything will die.

Reeve wrote:The depressing part is that there won't always be people around to care.

The world is full of people who don't care. They don't give a shit whether you live or die and won't give a fuck about anything that you might do. Tell me, what were your great grandparents like? What did they do that was worth remembering?

amkerman wrote:Plus you will never remember that you played with Legos, or that there were Legos, or that there ever was a you. Because you cease to exist. POOF and you're gone. Nothing will have mattered in the end. Maybe we can pretend like it matters now, but the reality is it doesn't. Nothing will be accomplished. Everything will die.

Admit it Amkerman - the notion scares you shitless.

Pascale wrote:Le silence eternel des ces espaces infinis m'effraie

ughaibu wrote:

Reeve wrote:The depressing part is that there won't always be people around to care.

The world is full of people who don't care. They don't give a shit whether you live or die and won't give a fuck about anything that you might do. Tell me, what were your great grandparents like? What did they do that was worth remembering?

I have no idea. I didn't say that it should necessarily be our descendants who are affected by our actions. Consider William Shakespeare, his plays have lasted hundreds of years and are the love of many an English Literature student. Or consider Nikola Tesla and his legacy in the human world. And soon, Sir Tim Burners Lee will be among such names, without whom, this discussion would not be possible.

I am striving to be one of those sorts of people

Indeed, consider W.Shakespeare never existed. Would it make today's world much different? Not possible to answer, right? Though I am lead to believe that if Nikola Tesla never existed someone else would made the discoveries we consider to be his legacy.

I'm sure that it's a comforting notion to some that our actions don't matter, that we are free to act and do whatever we want with no consequence, and that we can know this to be the casr with certainty... because science. Debilitatingly depressing for others, but in that mindset there is no benefit to being comforted over being depressed. All people die, whether one chooses to work to lessen the suffering of their fellow man or cause as much suffering as they can for their short existence does not matter. No life is better or more worthwhile then the next because there is no point to existence. It's all meaningless.

There is no such thing as fear on a materialistic metaphysic. It's just another delusion or evolutionary trait that aids a species in their futile and meaningless existence. There simply isn't anything to fear on this view. Existence isn't better than non-existence. Fear is for the living, and we're all dead anyways.

I see there's no point in me contributing to these threads, as my main points don't come across. Ok then.

For the fear of death is indeed the pretense of wisdom, and not real wisdom, being a pretense of knowing the unknown; and no one knows whether death, which men in their fear apprehend to be the greatest evil, may not be the greatest good. Is not this ignorance of a disgraceful sort, the ignorance which is the conceit that a man knows what he does not know?

Apology. from The Dialogues of Plato, Volume 2 - http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... ology.html

We search for meaning but it's not there, so we invent a meaning to help us sleep at night.

Sounds familiar.

Ok, let me try and turn this around for a second, and ask amkerman and any others who may agree with him:

What specifically is the meaning/purpose you are looking for? If you could have it exactly the way you want it, how would it be? What does it entail, and why? Do you crave being told by a Creator that you were made especially for a purpose, like we humans make things for a purpose; a use? If so, what is God's use for us? What niche did he not have filled, that we fill?

Is eternal life really 99% of this 'meaning', if you're being honest?

What do you think?

That Sartre got there first?

Make of it what you will - you get one crack at life.....noodling about in the philosophy section shortens the time left