Can chaos give rise to order?

termina · #1 by **termina** » Apr 18, 2014 4:23 pm

Many people deem it an indubitable truth that order can't emerge from chaotic interactions; but what does physics say on the subject?

ughaibu · #2 by **ughaibu** » Apr 18, 2014 4:27 pm

termina wrote:Many people deem it an indubitable truth that order can't emerge from chaotic interactions; but what does physics say on the subject?

1. what do you mean by "indubitable truth"?
2. what do you mean by "order"?
3. what do you mean by "chaotic"?
4. what do you mean by "interactions"?
5. why do you think that physics might have something to say about your question?

campermon · #3 by **campermon** » Apr 18, 2014 4:48 pm

theropod · #4 by **theropod** » Apr 18, 2014 4:53 pm

Wind or water ripples in sand.

RS

DavidMcC · #5 by **DavidMcC** » Apr 18, 2014 4:53 pm

termina wrote:Many people deem it an indubitable truth that order can't emerge from chaotic interactions; but what does physics say on the subject?

Maybe it depends a bit on what you mean, but the physical process of crystallization can be seen as order arising from chaos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercooling

Supercooling, also known as undercooling,[1] is the process of lowering the temperature of a liquid or a gas below its freezing point without it becoming a solid.
A liquid below its standard freezing point will crystallize in the presence of a seed crystal or nucleus around which a crystal structure can form creating a solid. However, lacking any such nuclei, the liquid phase can be maintained all the way down to the temperature at which crystal homogeneous nucleation occurs. Homogeneous nucleation can occur above the glass transition temperature, but if homogeneous nucleation has not occurred above that temperature an amorphous (non-crystalline) solid will form.
...

Thommo · #6 by **Thommo** » Apr 18, 2014 4:54 pm

There are a lot of definitional issues here I'd have to agree.

Let me answer a question with a question. Does random fixation of a neutral allele constitute order from chaos? Does chaos theory count as order from chaos? Does temperature of a gas based on the energy distribution of millions of particles tending towards a steady state constitute order from chaos?

Evolving · #7 by **Evolving** » Apr 18, 2014 6:33 pm

There's the second law of thermodynamics, which is a bit of a dampener if you're hoping for an increase in order overall. But locally there is no doubt that order can emerge from chaos, and it happens all the time. Beaches, for example, where the finest sand is at the top of the slope and the largest pebbles at the bottom, and a continual gradient of sizes in between. And biological evolution is another prime example.

laklak · #8 by **laklak** » Apr 18, 2014 8:01 pm

Just listen to Pink Floyd's "Echoes". Out of chaos, order.

twistor59 · #9 by **twistor59** » Apr 18, 2014 10:04 pm

laklak wrote:Just listen to Pink Floyd's "Echoes". Out of chaos, order.

SQEEEEEEK
SQUAAAAAAAAWK
RUSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
bingy bongy BONG
bingy bongy BONG........
......
Strangers passing in the street, by chance two separate glances meet.....

etc

Calilasseia · **#10** by **Calilasseia** » Apr 18, 2014 10:23 pm

Phospholipids spring to mind here. Shake the jar containing the suspension, and they spontaneously arrange into ordered structures.

Fenrir · **#11** by **Fenrir** » Apr 18, 2014 11:44 pm

Chaos is deterministic.

Fenrir · **#12** by **Fenrir** » Apr 18, 2014 11:44 pm

Aye an' a bit of Mackeral settler rack and ruin
ran it doon by the haim, 'ma place
well I slapped me and I slapped it doon in the side
and I cried, cried, cried.

LSD · **#13** by **LSD** » Aug 04, 2015 1:42 am

It's not an indisputable truth, on the contrary it's axiomatic. Simple use an hourglass. The sand falling creates a specific angle. Sand ripples and wind were mentioned as well. Other examples of chaos would be the stripes on a zebra, termite castle and our heartbeat.

Chaos and order everywhere.

Spearthrower · **#14** by **Spearthrower** » Aug 04, 2015 2:04 am

termina wrote:Many people deem it an indubitable truth that order can't emerge from chaotic interactions; but what does physics say on the subject?

Without going into a series of definitions (although I think it may be necessary), one could truthfully say that order only ever arises from chaos. In fact, it's a logical necessity that order is the opposite state of chaos, and chaos is the 'natural' state.

CdesignProponentsist · **#15** by **CdesignProponentsist** » Aug 04, 2015 3:27 am

Also there is nothing that says that a closed chaotic system cannot arrive at a highly ordered state, only that it is very very unlikely and therefor, if given enough time, must do so eventually.

Macdoc · **#16** by **Macdoc** » Aug 04, 2015 3:36 am

Didn't chaos theory put that notion of "can't" to bed a while back.??

A double rod pendulum animation showing chaotic behavior. Starting the pendulum from a slightly different initial condition would result in a completely different trajectory. The double rod pendulum is one of the simplest dynamical systems that has chaotic solutions.

Chaos theory is the field of study in mathematics that studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions—a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect.[1] Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general.[2] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[3] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[4][5] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos. The theory was summarized by Edward Lorenz as:[6]

Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future.

Chaotic behavior exists in many natural systems, such as weather and climate.[7][8] This behavior can be studied through analysis of a chaotic mathematical model, or through analytical techniques such as recurrence plots and Poincaré maps. Chaos theory has applications in several disciplines, including meteorology, sociology, physics, engineering, economics, biology, and philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

some outcomes are lovely and entirely unpredictable...

ain't the universe grand :coffee:

xionior · **#17** by **xionior** » Aug 23, 2015 5:51 am

If by "order" you mean natural life, then this "order" is creating more chaos (entropy) with it's actions than if it didn't exist. So the order is just temporary and the end result is always, always, more chaos.

juju7 · **#18** by **juju7** » Aug 23, 2015 11:10 am

termina wrote:Many people deem it an indubitable truth that order can't emerge from chaotic interactions; but what does physics say on the subject?

Crystals.

DavidMcC · **#19** by **DavidMcC** » Aug 23, 2015 5:34 pm

juju7 wrote:
termina wrote:Many people deem it an indubitable truth that order can't emerge from chaotic interactions; but what does physics say on the subject?

Crystals.

Yes, indeed:

DavidMcC wrote:
termina wrote:Many people deem it an indubitable truth that order can't emerge from chaotic interactions; but what does physics say on the subject?

Maybe it depends a bit on what you mean, but the physical process of crystallization can be seen as order arising from chaos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercooling
Supercooling, also known as undercooling,[1] is the process of lowering the temperature of a liquid or a gas below its freezing point without it becoming a solid.
A liquid below its standard freezing point will crystallize in the presence of a seed crystal or nucleus around which a crystal structure can form creating a solid. However, lacking any such nuclei, the liquid phase can be maintained all the way down to the temperature at which crystal homogeneous nucleation occurs. Homogeneous nucleation can occur above the glass transition temperature, but if homogeneous nucleation has not occurred above that temperature an amorphous (non-crystalline) solid will form.
...

kennyc · **#20** by **kennyc** » Aug 23, 2015 6:53 pm

termina wrote:Many people deem it an indubitable truth that order can't emerge from chaotic interactions; but what does physics say on the subject?

Physics has nothing to say about 'order arising from chaos.' Physics is about the fundamental forces governing the universe and their interaction. It has lots to say about that and continues to do so.

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