Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34681  Postby Stein » Nov 29, 2013 7:52 am

Rick wrote:
Stein wrote:That's like asking which latest scientific research points to evolution. All of it. But I know you're just trying to waste our time and wind me up, since obviously half the exchanges on this thread address exactly what you're "asking", and you know that very well.


Publication of Drews book The Christ Myth created an uproar by the liberal theologians, led in the main by a gent named Harnack, and who deemed it beneath his dignity to debate the issue in public.

But in 1910 Harnack posed his famous six anti mythers questions in an Austrian journal aimed at comprehensively demolishing the ahistoricists.

Trouble is, they were all readily dismissed as mere polemics, dogmatic and pseudo-argumentative rhetoric, using many obsolete testimonies like that of Josephus.

A healthy debate needs dissenters, Stein: show us your historical Jesus case.


A simple courtesy on your part would be to look for my MANY postings detailing various aspects of the consensus. It's insulting to this board and to me to shew your ignorance of this thread by pretending that nothing happened here before you came along. Plenty did!

I sign all my posts: So all you need do is put Stein in the search line for this thread. All my most substantive posts -- along with plenty of angry ones of which I'm not proud -- were submitted before the 1000-page mark. If you wonder why I'm always so irascible, it's because it quickly dawned on a number of us, including Tim and a number of others, that we contributed plenty of information of substance to this thread to no purpose at all. The constant recent recycling of bogus ill-informed points that were already addressed thoroughly in those first 1000 pages by me and others is enough to shew that.

Sure, you can disagree with us all you want. But the constant imputation that we never(!!!) contributed any thorough explication of the scholarly consensus from professional scholars at all is outrageous. It was posters like Tim and myself that helped turn this thread into the massive resource it is today, and that also helped bring it to the attention of half the web posters on all these rationalist boards, and don't you forget it. I'm done with being patient with Johnny-come-latelys like you who think you're inventing the wheel for the first time when a good use of the Search line can bring you all the syntheses of the data that we all evidently WASTED TIME submitting in detail to an audience half of whom had already made up its mind anyway without even bothering to examine anything from scratch.

A number of us already submitted all that by virtually spoon-feeding it to this board. Do you know that Earl Doherty even visited here once? Everything was hashed out here thoroughly, and by ignoring this thread's history you shew just how genuinely -- NOT -- you're "interested" in the latest professional scholarship from secular academe. You're not interested in research; you're only interested in peddling your propaganda, or you'd have used the Search line for this thread long ago. There's even one exasperated post of mine in which I've actually provided a few links to my VARIOUS postings on the scholarly details behind the consensus. But I don't feel like looking for that one now. You can find the damn thing yourself, if you've got a mind to.

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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34682  Postby RealityRules » Nov 29, 2013 8:07 am

Stein wrote:

A simple courtesy on your part would be to look for my MANY postings detailing various aspects of the consensus. It's insulting to this board and to me to shew your ignorance of this thread by pretending that nothing happened here before you came along. ..

There's even one exasperated post of mine in which I've actually provided a few links to my VARIOUS postings on the scholarly details behind the consensus.

I think you just keep referring to some idea you have about a golden age way back/

Put up now, in light of the progressed debate. Tim left b/c he couldn't keep up.

" Stein: show us your historical Jesus case."
Last edited by RealityRules on Nov 29, 2013 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34683  Postby Byron » Nov 29, 2013 8:07 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Stein wrote:does that mean that any professional academic who writes about anything is automatically in favor of whatever he's analyzing?!


Not necessarily, of course, but we can ask a number of questions about the following approach:

Byron wrote:all participants proceed as if Jesus of Nazareth existed, and ask, if he did, how it would affect the birth of Christianity. As a hypothetical. People who believe that Jesus is mythical, or who are agnostic about his existence, could participate, indeed, would be welcome to. It'd be a "what if?" for them, just as discussion of literary or film characters operates under the working fiction that characters are people, not constructs.


Exactly the same result can be achieved by proceeding as if Jesus of Nazareth never existed, and asking, if he did not, how it would affect the birth of Christianity. I don't think it is enough to announce that one is doing 'historical analysis' by applying a particular hermeneutic to scripture and writings of early church authors such as Marcion. A literature of Jesus without the miracles is already widespread, and lacquering it with the sheen of 'historical analysis' seems merely to be a new genre of fanfiction for fans of Jesus and his works, one that promotes Byron's as if. One may read all of the literature of that age as if Jesus were this or that, and a sufficiently-literary approach to a great many texts may eventually be joined with this hermeneutic.

If we ask what the point of all that is, it's not rocket science to come up with a rational response in the enjoyment of literature, for that is one thing that 'history' can become when set entirely free of constraint by treating texts as artifacts, or treating the existence of cults as evidence of cult leaders whose names and exploits belong to history.

It was a pragmatic suggestion to cool off the heat in this thread, nothing more.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34684  Postby Stein » Nov 29, 2013 8:23 am

RealityRules wrote:
Stein wrote:

A simple courtesy on your part would be to look for my MANY postings detailing various aspects of the consensus. It's insulting to this board and to me to shew your ignorance of this thread by pretending that nothing happened here before you came along. ..

There's even one exasperated post of mine in which I've actually provided a few links to my VARIOUS postings on the scholarly details behind the consensus.

I think you just keep referring to some idea you have about a golden age way back/

Put up now, in light of the progressed debate. Tim left b/c he couldn't keep up.

" Stein: show us your historical Jesus case."


Why can't you use the Search line FOR THIS THREAD? The fact that neither you nor Rick opt to use it shews you're only interested in snark, not in the information I synthesized at all. Stop pretending you have any real interest in the reasoning/methodology behind the consensus. Neither you nor Rick are asking this in good faith. If you were really interested, you'd do the Search first and only then query me on the actual details of what I -- and Tim and plenty of others -- already posted. I'd like to see just how bloody patient you'd be if there was a whole corpus of substantive postings of yours in some thread that was routinely airbrushed away from the discussion as if none of it had ever been submitted!

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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34685  Postby dejuror » Nov 29, 2013 8:26 am

Rick wrote:....In scripture, Jesus and John the Baptist are bound together, a package if you like, disproving the first means we have to try to eliminate the latter as well, any help greatly welcomed.



It is actually the opposite. John the Baptist did not even know who Jesus was. If the Holy Ghost bird did not descend on Jesus and there was no voice from heaven then John would have not recognized Jesus.

Plus, as soon as Jesus was baptized, after a single encounter, Jesus leaves John the Baptist to be immediately tempted by the Devil..

1. John the Baptist is merely used as an hisotrical marker for Jesus of Nazareth.

John the Baptist and Jesus did not say a word to each other in gMark.


2. The encounter with Jesus and John the Baptist at baptism only consumed 1 verse.

Mark 1
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan



3. Incredibly, there is no statement that Jesus even attended the burial of John.

Mark 6
29 And when his disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb. 30 And the apostles gathered themselves together unto Jesus, and told him all things, both what they had done , and what they had taught
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34686  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 29, 2013 9:19 am

Byron wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Stein wrote:does that mean that any professional academic who writes about anything is automatically in favor of whatever he's analyzing?!


Not necessarily, of course, but we can ask a number of questions about the following approach:

Byron wrote:all participants proceed as if Jesus of Nazareth existed, and ask, if he did, how it would affect the birth of Christianity. As a hypothetical. People who believe that Jesus is mythical, or who are agnostic about his existence, could participate, indeed, would be welcome to. It'd be a "what if?" for them, just as discussion of literary or film characters operates under the working fiction that characters are people, not constructs.


Exactly the same result can be achieved by proceeding as if Jesus of Nazareth never existed, and asking, if he did not, how it would affect the birth of Christianity. I don't think it is enough to announce that one is doing 'historical analysis' by applying a particular hermeneutic to scripture and writings of early church authors such as Marcion. A literature of Jesus without the miracles is already widespread, and lacquering it with the sheen of 'historical analysis' seems merely to be a new genre of fanfiction for fans of Jesus and his works, one that promotes Byron's as if. One may read all of the literature of that age as if Jesus were this or that, and a sufficiently-literary approach to a great many texts may eventually be joined with this hermeneutic.

If we ask what the point of all that is, it's not rocket science to come up with a rational response in the enjoyment of literature, for that is one thing that 'history' can become when set entirely free of constraint by treating texts as artifacts, or treating the existence of cults as evidence of cult leaders whose names and exploits belong to history.

It was a pragmatic suggestion to cool off the heat in this thread, nothing more.


We already have a literature which assumes Jesus of Nazareth existed and was not a supernatural being, and which applies that to the analysis of the birth of Christianity. Do you think there's something more to be said about it? The only flaw in the ointment is that there is a literature which assumes the contrary (although there's no need to deny that Jesus was supernatural if he wasn't a historical figure in the first place.) Do you think there is something to be gained by assuming one's conclusions?

I think the only thing you can get out of that is more literature. The heat in this thread comes from treating literary studies as something besides literary studies.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34687  Postby Rick » Nov 29, 2013 9:29 am

Very amusing, Stein, again no case whatsoever, only the usual loaded rhetoric, hot air.

No need to look up your posts at all - I remember your woolly notions only to well.

Ah, your great hero Tim, how it brings back memories of the good old Dawkins forum! The two of us had some battles royal there, not just on religion but a whole heap of topics (some here as well). Off hand, I can’t recall losing any. In that some of his extravagantly venal outbursts and personalized attacks back then make yours now seem like honeyed music, it still amazes me that he wasn't banned with every second post. Was there ever a contradicting messenger he didn't instantly try to shoot down in the nastiest way conceivable! This time round I did think of annihilating his main post on Page 1, but thought better of it as he's not present to defend it, or himself.

I simply ignored it then, but the last time I took part here someone also tried using the Johnny-come-lately attack. The truth is, friend, over the years I've played under a whole string of different usernames and, adding in the Dawkins site, I may well be the longest standing member here! It simply doesn't do to jump to unwarranted conclusions, Stein. And I’m perfectly well aware that Doherty was here.

And to the contrary, I’m very much ‘interested in the latest professional scholarship from secular academe’. Not much use if you refuse to offer it to us though. More hot air?
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34688  Postby RealityRules » Nov 29, 2013 11:07 am

Stein wrote:Why can't you use the Search line FOR THIS THREAD? The fact that neither you nor Rick opt to use it shews you're only interested in snark, not in the information I synthesized at all.

Been there, done that. It's a futile exercise trying to go from post to post of yours trying to find something tangible.

Put up something tangible now, or be seen as an empty vessel full of hot air: someone seemingly attached to some nebulous, self-agrandized past glory that no-one else can discern.

Stein wrote: Stop pretending you have any real interest in the reasoning/methodology behind the consensus. Neither you nor Rick are asking this in good faith.

Not true! (as our repeated asking shows; I'll ignore your personal attack by misrepresentation, for now)

Stein wrote: I'd like to see just how bloody patient you'd be if there was a whole corpus of substantive postings of yours in some thread that was routinely airbrushed away from the discussion as if none of it had ever been submitted!

Stein

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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34689  Postby spin » Nov 29, 2013 1:40 pm

Stein wrote:
RealityRules wrote:
Stein wrote:

A simple courtesy on your part would be to look for my MANY postings detailing various aspects of the consensus. It's insulting to this board and to me to shew your ignorance of this thread by pretending that nothing happened here before you came along. ..

There's even one exasperated post of mine in which I've actually provided a few links to my VARIOUS postings on the scholarly details behind the consensus.

I think you just keep referring to some idea you have about a golden age way back/

Put up now, in light of the progressed debate. Tim left b/c he couldn't keep up.

" Stein: show us your historical Jesus case."


Why can't you use the Search line FOR THIS THREAD?

In this instance it seems to be for people like you to dodge your responsibilities. This is a typical dose of stein obfuscation. You claim to have dealt with the topic, but you have been debugged, pulled apart leg by leg so often. The Tim O'Neill reheats—just received apologetics in the mouths of non-believers—have been consistently lambasted for lacking in any integrity. (I had O'Neill running for help to a number of scholarly forums because he wasn't up to the job.)

You use the search line and provide something beside obfuscation to support your claim.

Stein: show us your historical Jesus case.

Stein wrote:The fact that neither you nor Rick opt to use it shews you're only interested in snark, not in the information I synthesized at all.

Dodge. You have no case and never have. You know that and that's why you haven't dared present a version of anything other than the text wall of obfuscation. You cannot defend your usage of your sources. You rehearse the fact that classical sources contain a few nuggets of christology in various disguises. You've had the TF debunked for you on a number of occasions, though you still pretend that there is nothing actually wrong with it. You simply don't respond: you just repeat yourself after a time lapse.

Stein wrote:Stop pretending you have any real interest in the reasoning/methodology behind the consensus.

Who's pretending? Yup. Stein. And why do you hide behind "the consensus" when you should be willing to present your wares if you have a case to defend. But you don't interact with your sources and you don't explain why the consensus accepts that Josephus has been bowdlerized, yet arbitrarily attempts to salvage some of it, without having any means of deciding what is genuine. (Yes, we've been though Alice Whealey's attempts with late Syriac and Arabic sources and where has that discussion got you?)

Stein wrote:Neither you nor Rick are asking this in good faith.

Trying the old "use the search line" dodge is a great reflection of your good faith:

Stein wrote:If you were really interested, you'd do the Search first and only then query me on the actual details of what I -- and Tim and plenty of others -- already posted.

You have been clobbered so many times due to your lack of content, that you are only going through the motions now. You haven't dealt with any historical datum to my recollection for many, many months.

Stein wrote:I'd like to see just how bloody patient you'd be if there was a whole corpus of substantive postings of yours in some thread that was routinely airbrushed away from the discussion as if none of it had ever been submitted!

You have done this constantly, so don't parade hypocrisy as a defense.

Stein: show us your historical Jesus case.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34690  Postby Blood » Nov 29, 2013 1:48 pm

Rick wrote:
The first Christians, as described in the first chapters of the Acts of the Apostles, were all Jewish, either by birth, or conversion for which the biblical term proselyte is used, and referred to by historians as the Jewish Christians.


You may want to read the results of the Acts Seminar. As the chairman wrote, "Much of the content of Acts, including some of the church’s all-time favorite stories, was shown to lack historical credibility." Chief among these is Acts' contention that Christianity started in Jerusalem among ethnic Jews. This is a fairy tale. Christianity was everywhere but Jerusalem in the first century. Which makes sense, considering that Christianity was and is pop-culture Judaism for Gentiles.
"One absurdity having been granted, the rest follows. Nothing difficult about that."
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34691  Postby Clive Durdle » Nov 29, 2013 2:24 pm

Xianity = monotheism for Greeks
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34692  Postby dejuror » Nov 29, 2013 4:13 pm

Blood wrote:
Rick wrote:
The first Christians, as described in the first chapters of the Acts of the Apostles, were all Jewish, either by birth, or conversion for which the biblical term proselyte is used, and referred to by historians as the Jewish Christians.


You may want to read the results of the Acts Seminar. As the chairman wrote, "Much of the content of Acts, including some of the church’s all-time favorite stories, was shown to lack historical credibility." Chief among these is Acts' contention that Christianity started in Jerusalem among ethnic Jews. This is a fairy tale. Christianity was everywhere but Jerusalem in the first century. Which makes sense, considering that Christianity was and is pop-culture Judaism for Gentiles.


What is most bizarre is that the authors of the Pauline letters appear to corroborate the fairy tales in Acts and not only corroborate but participated in the very fairy tales.

If there were no Jesus cult Christians in Jerusalem then why does the Pauline writer go to Jerusalem to meet the Apostles Peter and James and claimed to have actually stayed with Peter? See Galatians.

Incredibly, the author of Acts claimed people were first called Christians in Antioch---NOT Jerusalem.

Incredibly, based on the author of Acts, there would have been NO persons called Christians in Jerusalem and Judaea in the supposed life time of Jesus of Nazareth.

Acts 11:26 KJV
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass , that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


If Acts of the Apostles is a fairy tale then the Pauline Corpus is no different. The authors of the Pauline Corpus not only wrote fairy tales but participated in the very fairy tales.

The main character [Saul/Paul] in the fairy tales called Acts is the author of all the Pauline Corpus according to the Church.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34693  Postby Stein » Nov 29, 2013 6:11 pm

This is an old post. It's on my hard drive. There is nothing new in this, so it's just a waste of time. If you guys are so lazy that you can't Search for this post or something similar, then all your protestations are worthless. I'm submitting this strictly for lurkers only, in order to set the record straight. Most of you have already made up your minds that all SECULAR scholarship is hegemonized by Odo the Wonder Monk anyway, so there's no point pretending that you will read this at all attentively. I don't even recall if I submitted this here already or to another board -- and frankly, I don't care.

Here goes:


Professional scholarly consensus today comes down on the side of the Paul letters being the earliest extant documentation on Jesus the teacher. A number of Pauline letters, though, are forged, meaning one must be as strict as possible in confining the Pauline letters to those that are most likely authentic. The consensus is that seven of them are. However, one view circumscribes that even further, to four only:

http://books.google.com/books?id=A5M3AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=A.+Q.+Morton+Paul,+the+Man+and+the+Myth+Paul+authentic+four&source=bl&ots=8_iRw6MdP3&sig=v49pka3jHeeDuqNiN4sI657UCF8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zZVlUrrvDYr49gSIhIGIAg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=A.%20Q.%20Morton%20Paul%2C%20the%20Man%20and%20the%20Myth%20Paul%20authentic%20four&f=false

At this link, you can read up on a certain Morton from the '60s, who analysed the letters and found only these four surviving the "cut": Galatians, Romans, Corinthians 1, Corinthians 2.

Clearly, Morton's methods were strongly criticised by some. I only cite Morton as but one example of a few especially strict voices, merely to shew why it may be best to err on the side of too few authentic sources, rather than too many, for whatever reason. The four Paulines that even Morton accepts as genuine also have the relatively largest preponderance of references (among all the Paulines, genuine, doubtful and forged) to Jesus as a human with a human biography. This is a relatively preponderant characteristic they share with all seven of those Paulines which the dreaded consensus accepts as genuine: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Philippians, and Romans.

The four Morton Paulines are typical of arguably the earliest written documentation we have on Jesus the teacher. At the same time, the examples of Tacitus and Antiqs. 20 (the account of James becoming a pulp) are probably the most disinterested. From both sets of documents emerge an historic human figure.

Only with these first as a working foundation does it make any sense to then apply the philological strata that modern academic scholarship has painstakingly assembled for the rest of the data, applied primarily to certain sayings in the Synoptics and in GThomas. Here is where "multiple attestation", as the academics behind the dreaded consensus term it, comes in. But even "multiple attestation" should be applied circumspectly.

For instance, since modern research appears to have achieved consensus that some written details in GMark, for instance, have been simply transcribed directly in GMatthew and GLuke, one can dismiss such details as purely reflective of one source, GMark, and not three. In such instances, "multiple attestation" is not relevant.

But on the other hand, if contexts for other passages/details in GMatthew and/or GLuke and/or both appear independent from GMark, then "multiple attestation" is more relevant, not in proving anything (again, this is dealing with ancient history, remember, where one deals with relative likelihoods only), but in rendering such details relatively more rather than less likely. A series of shared sayings falls in the latter independent category.

The dreaded consensus has now determined that a nexus of shared characteristics bears out a singularity of voice and style in a small "family" of sayings found in GMatthew, in GLuke -- and even in GThomas, even though the latter may be anywhere from as early as GMark to as late as the early 2nd century. That nexus of shared characteristics comprises, among other things, peculiarly Aramaic structures of speech, a highly colloquial way of framing certain statements, and/or a heavy dependence on the mundane details of living day-to-day in order to make a point.

Taking together the foundation of the least suspect Paulines, the scanty details in Tacitus/Antiqs. 20 and the shared sayings multiply attested in GMatthew, GLuke and GThomas, it is possible to extract an account of an eccentric rabbi who aroused the ire of the Roman authorities and got nailed.

Here is the chief textual data behind the academic consensus:


Galatians 1:18-19
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[a] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

1 Corinthians 2:8
8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 7:10
10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband

1 Corinthians 9:5
5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife,[a] as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

1 Corinthians 9:14
14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Luke 11:21–22
21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe; 22 but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil.

Luke 11:33:
33 “No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light. 34 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are healthy,[a] your whole body also is full of light. But when they are unhealthy,[b] your body also is full of darkness. 35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. 36 Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be just as full of light as when a lamp shines its light on you.”

Luke 12:2-3
2 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

Luke 12:10
10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Luke 13:18-9:
18 Then Jesus asked, “What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? 19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds perched in its branches.”

Luke 13:30
30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

Luke 19:26
26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.

Josephus: Antiquities, 20 -- "Since Ananus was that kind of person, and because he perceived an opportunity with Festus having died and Albinus not yet arrived, he called a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought James, the brother of Jesus (who is called 'Messiah') along with some others. He accused them of transgressing the law, and handed them over for stoning."

Tacitus: Annals, 15:44 -- "But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."


If all this isn't useful, I'd like to know what is!

Now, these are only the basics from which the most likely biographical details can be reconstructed. Far more sophisticated work is then possible, once one has established the basics duly culled here. Striking family resemblances are readily detectable between these basic cites and other related material that is also multiply attested -- in the stricter construction of that term. Chiefly, this involves the sayings: The Luke sayings cited here have similarities to additional sayings similarly shared between GMatthew and GLuke and bearing similar linguistic characteristics. Much in the GLuke Sermon On The Plain, for instance (the bulk of Luke, Chapter 6), seems cut from the identical cloth as the cites here, and since portions of it also appear in markedly different contexts in GMatthew suggesting a different use of an earlier source, it appears _likely_ (that dreaded word again) that the bulk of the GLuke Sermon On The Plain in Luke's Chapter 6 may be just as fully historical as the cites provided above.

Extrapolations of such a sort are highly useful in determining which aspects of the extant data are more or less likely to be related to all the cites provided above. But that is a complex exercise requiring intimate knowledge of the myriad idioms in Koine Greek, of a level that I cannot possibly pretend to have.

Ultimately, it's the consilience of various pieces of data that, together, make Jesus of Nazareth's historicity more likely than not.

That is the gist of the methodology behind the consensus. Now, for my own personal take, I would suggest that there are two tiers of conclusions as to the Jesus-the-human-rabbi bio: The top tier, based strictly on the cites provided above, concludes that Jesus was a victim of Roman jurisprudence, because he introduced a new kind of superstition of an uncertain nature, geared partly around social justice and social redress (see Luke 13:30). He had at least two brothers, one of whom was named James. The second tier takes all of that as a given, and then, extrapolating from further Aramaicisms and other similar stylistic ticks and textual patterns, enfolds the additional notion that Jesus called for a radically uniform even-handed approach to all people, enemies included, a call that didn't sit well with various demographics of all sorts, leaving him vulnerable to the very first trumped-up charge that might come along. Well, one certainly did.

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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34694  Postby dejuror » Nov 29, 2013 6:55 pm

Stein wrote:This is an old post. It's on my hard drive. There is nothing new in this, so it's just a waste of time. If you guys are so lazy that you can't Search for this post or something similar, then all your protestations are worthless. I'm submitting this strictly for lurkers only, in order to set the record straight.
Stein


Your post has nothing to do with a Scholarly consensus. Your post reflects propaganda or Chinese Whispers.

The very first thing you ought to have established is that Paul was a figure of history in the 1st century.

You have utterly failed to show the evidence that Paul actually lived in the 1st century.

Not even the Church knew when Paul really lived.

You very well know that Origen and Eusebius claimed Paul was ALIVE after gLuke was written. Church History 6. Origen's Commentary on Matthew 1

The very first time we hear about gLuke is sometime around 180 CE by Irenaeus who argued that Jesus was crucified c 50 CE which means the Pauline Corpus and Pauline activities c 37-41 CE are historically bogus. Against Heresies 2.22

It is virtually impossible for you to show any corroborative evidence for a pre 70 CE Paul by non-apologetics, plus no Pauline writings have been found and dated to any time before c 70 CE.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34695  Postby tanya » Nov 29, 2013 7:02 pm

Rick wrote:Spin seems to emphatically reject any weeklong stopover, Tanya:
spin wrote:The reports we have give no indication that Julian's forces crossed the Euphrates to spend any time at the site. They were on a march down the river and a few days after passing Dura they were besieging a city down river. There was no extended stop in the vicinity.


You are not in error, Rick. Spin argues his point of view, based upon the Latin history of Ammianus Marcellinus, a Greek citizen, of nobility, born and raised in the Eastern Mediterranean region, but who, it is claimed, wrote his history in Latin.

Maybe he did. Or, maybe somewhere along the line, somebody rewrote his history, translating it into Latin, as they worked. Who knows? Certainly not me. Perhaps his account, (in Latin, written, it is claimed, in Rome, several years after the death of Julian) is absolutely accurate to the last detail. I have no data to refute this Latin version of Ammianus' history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammianus_Marcellinus
Wikipedia wrote:Res Gestae (Rerum gestarum Libri XXXI) was originally in thirty-one books, but the first thirteen are lost (modern historian T.D. Barnes argues that the original was actually thirty-six books, which would mean that eighteen books had been lost). The surviving eighteen books cover the period from 353 to 378. As a whole it has been considered extremely valuable, being a clear, comprehensive and in general impartial account of events by a contemporary. Like many ancient historians, Ammianus had a strong political and religious agenda to pursue, however, and he contrasted Constantius II with Julian to the former's constant disadvantage; like all ancient writers he was skilled in rhetoric, and this shows in his work.

His work has suffered terribly from the manuscript transmission. Aside from the loss of the first thirteen books, the remaining eighteen are in many places corrupt and lacunose. The sole surviving manuscript from which almost every other is derived is a ninth-century Carolingian text, Vatican lat. 1873 (V), produced in Fulda from an insular exemplar. The only independent textual source for Ammianus lies in Fragmenta Marbugensia (M), another ninth-century Frankish codex which was taken apart to provide covers for account-books during the fifteenth century. Only six leaves of M survive; however, before this manuscript was dismantled the Abbot of Hersfeld lent the manuscript to Sigismund Gelenius, who used it in preparing the text of the second Froben edition (G). The dates and relationship of V and M were long disputed until 1936 when R. P. Robinson demonstrated persuasively that V was copied from M. As L.D. Reynolds summarizes, "M is thus a fragment of the archetype; symptoms of an insular pre-archetype are evident."


One wonders what the "pre-archetype" text included, that had been subsequently purged, in later centuries. Did the editors add any text, that Ammianus forgot? How much value do we place in a text, written, in a foreign language, many years after the affair, demonstrating "corrupt and lacunose characters", "in many places." This is the "evidence", mind you, that Julian's soldiers did not enter Dura Europos while the emperor halted the invasion along the Euphrates, to visit the tomb of a teenage emperor, who had died fighting the Persians.

One moth eaten Latin text, copied in the 9th century, renders the notion that Julian's troops entered the city, null and void???

What about excavations of Dura Europos? Do the objets d'art, and coins, and papyrus documents buried under all that dirt, confirm the notion that the site had lain UNDISTURBED, from 257CE, i.e. after the successful conquest of the town, by the Sassinid troops, until the early 20th century?

Would it confirm my hypothesis, that Julian's troops, or someone, at least, entered Dura, after 257 CE, and deposited something underneath all that soil? Maybe an ornament, or a piece of jewelry, with a stamp indicating a date of creation, after 257.....But, if such evidence were found, then, what happens to the idea that the paintings MUST represent pre-invasion creations, which lay "undisturbed" for 1700 years? I do not know of any such evidence, but perhaps someone on the forum, does have information about the artifacts uncovered in further excavations in the past seventy years, i.e. after the French/Yale Expedition.

I firmly acknowledge skepticism about the claim that those paintings, on the walls of the "house-church" were created before the invasion by Shapur, however, I admit to having no proof to refute that claim. I do think that someone who knows more about graffiti than I do, ought to comment on the two graffiti described by Hopkins. What sort of contrarian would attribute to an outlandish, clumsy, intemperate, black graffito bearing the author's name, the notion that such a gesture represents confirmation of the consecration of the chapel? Are there other "early" churches with similar graffiti upon them: scribblings written purportedly as a sign of beneficence? This entire Dura Europos business conveys a malodorous aroma.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34696  Postby RealityRules » Nov 29, 2013 7:14 pm

Blood wrote:
Rick wrote:In that the first Christians were often Jews ...

Er, no.

Ethnic Jews would not have done something so silly and historically implausible as form a new religion whose entire identity and purpose was based on the concept of Jews (i.e., themselves) executing God. That would be like 19th-20th Century black Americans forming the Ku Klux Klan, only more outrageous. Not only did it not happen, it could not happen. Christianity was and still is a non-Jewish and anti-Jewish religion, based on a gross misreading and plagiarism of the Septuagint by Gentiles.

I'm not so sure it was as black/ white as Christianity "being formed by Jews" or "being formed by non-Jews".

i.e. I think those two opposing options are a 'false dilemma'/'false dichotomy'

The late centuries BCE and early centuries in the region in the Common Era were a mix of belief systems - the last section of the Tanakh (the Jewish Bible), the Ketuvim, was not canonised until the 2nd C AD/CE; Hellenism was creating or perpetuating diversity in Judaism. Rick has asserted the Tanakh was first written in Greek.

There were lots of gnostic systems of belief - Zoroastrianism, Docetism, etc. etc.: - Arianism, Marcionism, Montanism etc. developed.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34697  Postby RealityRules » Nov 29, 2013 7:35 pm

Stein wrote:Professional scholarly consensus today comes down on the side of the Paul letters being the earliest extant documentation on Jesus the teacher. A number of Pauline letters, though, are forged, meaning one must be as strict as possible in confining the Pauline letters to those that are most likely authentic. The consensus is that seven of them are. However, one view circumscribes that even further, to four only:

A. Q. Morton and J. McLeman, Paul, the Man and the Myth (1966).

At this link, you can read up on a certain Morton from the '60s, who analysed the letters and found only these four surviving the "cut": Galatians, Romans, Corinthians 1, Corinthians 2.

Clearly, Morton's methods were strongly criticised by some. I only cite Morton as but one example of a few especially strict voices, merely to shew why it may be best to err on the side of too few authentic sources, rather than too many, for whatever reason. The four Paulines that even Morton accepts as genuine also have the relatively largest preponderance of references (among all the Paulines, genuine, doubtful and forged) to Jesus as a human with a human biography. This is a relatively preponderant characteristic they share with all seven of those Paulines which the dreaded consensus accepts as genuine: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Philippians, and Romans.

[snip]

The four Morton Paulines are typical of arguably the earliest written documentation we have on Jesus the teacher. I would suggest that there are two tiers of conclusions as to the Jesus-the-human-rabbi bio: The top tier, based strictly on the cites provided above, concludes that Jesus was a victim of Roman jurisprudence, because he introduced a new kind of superstition of an uncertain nature, geared partly around social justice and social redress (see Luke 13:30). He had at least two brothers, one of whom was named James. The second tier takes all of that as a given, and then, extrapolating from further Aramaicisms and other similar stylistic ticks and textual patterns, enfolds the additional notion that Jesus called for a radically uniform even-handed approach to all people, enemies included, a call that didn't sit well with various demographics of all sorts, leaving him vulnerable to the very first trumped-up charge that might come along. Well, one certainly did.

Stein

Cheers. I had not been acquainted with a summary of Morton's views.

How do you feel about the conclusions of Loman (1800s), Detering (1995), & Price (2012) ??
(and probably others)? -

... the letters of Paul are all inauthentic and represent the product of the newly-believing, gnostic-messianic community." - Loman, 1881

Paul” was rather a domesticated (most extensively by Catholic reworking) child of Marcionism, in which the witness to his spiritual origin is still entirely evident. In short: Marcion is not the radical Paul, whom until today scholarship holds him to be, but “Paul” is rather a diminished Marcion (i.e., catholicized, tied to the Catholic dogma of the one God who is both Creator and Redeemer). - http://www.egodeath.com/FalsifiedPaul/DeteringChapter2.pdf

...The canonical figure of Paul was derived by redactively diminishing (from dualist to monist) the original 'Paul the theologian' figure that originated in popular Marcionite Gnosticism . - Hoffman's summary of Detering (1995)

"... the [Pauline] epistles present us with many of the same challenges the Gospels did. They appear to be filled with the same variety of redactional seams, non-sequiturs, and double-audience rhetorical tricks we find in the Gospels."

The Amazing Colossal Apostle: The Search for the Historical Paul; Robert M. Price - section headed 'Produktbeschreibungen'
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34698  Postby Byron » Nov 29, 2013 10:49 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:We already have a literature which assumes Jesus of Nazareth existed and was not a supernatural being, and which applies that to the analysis of the birth of Christianity. Do you think there's something more to be said about it? The only flaw in the ointment is that there is a literature which assumes the contrary (although there's no need to deny that Jesus was supernatural if he wasn't a historical figure in the first place.) Do you think there is something to be gained by assuming one's conclusions?

I think the only thing you can get out of that is more literature. The heat in this thread comes from treating literary studies as something besides literary studies.

The heat in this thread comes from its participants being at cross-purposes, since they argue from different frameworks. Someone who thinks that history is literature is, clearly, going to be at-odds with someone who doesn't.

If people are at cross-purposes, and have no realistic home of seeing eye-to-eye, it makes sense to separate. Hence my suggestion. It is, in any case, something for the feedback forum.
I don't believe in the no-win scenario.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34699  Postby Byron » Nov 29, 2013 10:59 pm

spin wrote:[in reply to Stein]
[...] But you don't interact with your sources and you don't explain why the consensus accepts that Josephus has been bowdlerized, yet arbitrarily attempts to salvage some of it, without having any means of deciding what is genuine. [...]

Case in point. It's inaccurate to call the reconstruction of Josephus "arbitrary." Its methodology is stated and readily understandable: remove the material that's incompatible with the theology of a 1st century Jew. You may disagree that this is valid, as you clearly do, but mischaracterizing it from the off, and accusing your opponent of failing to interact with the sources, makes useful discussion impossible.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#34700  Postby Blood » Nov 30, 2013 12:08 am

dejuror wrote:
Blood wrote:
Rick wrote:
The first Christians, as described in the first chapters of the Acts of the Apostles, were all Jewish, either by birth, or conversion for which the biblical term proselyte is used, and referred to by historians as the Jewish Christians.


You may want to read the results of the Acts Seminar. As the chairman wrote, "Much of the content of Acts, including some of the church’s all-time favorite stories, was shown to lack historical credibility." Chief among these is Acts' contention that Christianity started in Jerusalem among ethnic Jews. This is a fairy tale. Christianity was everywhere but Jerusalem in the first century. Which makes sense, considering that Christianity was and is pop-culture Judaism for Gentiles.


What is most bizarre is that the authors of the Pauline letters appear to corroborate the fairy tales in Acts and not only corroborate but participated in the very fairy tales.

If there were no Jesus cult Christians in Jerusalem then why does the Pauline writer go to Jerusalem to meet the Apostles Peter and James and claimed to have actually stayed with Peter? See Galatians.

Incredibly, the author of Acts claimed people were first called Christians in Antioch---NOT Jerusalem.

Incredibly, based on the author of Acts, there would have been NO persons called Christians in Jerusalem and Judaea in the supposed life time of Jesus of Nazareth.

Acts 11:26 KJV
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass , that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


If Acts of the Apostles is a fairy tale then the Pauline Corpus is no different. The authors of the Pauline Corpus not only wrote fairy tales but participated in the very fairy tales.

The main character [Saul/Paul] in the fairy tales called Acts is the author of all the Pauline Corpus according to the Church.


You're catching on.
"One absurdity having been granted, the rest follows. Nothing difficult about that."
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