One bang one process.

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Re: One bang one process.

#3601  Postby pfrankinstein » Nov 21, 2022 9:12 am

romansh wrote:
pfrankinstein wrote:
Did our solar system evolve thrower, by means of a type of selection?

If you mean the solar system is shaped by the environment it finds itself in ... Yes!
If you mean Darwinian evolution .... No!

Similarly, for the moon, it is shaped by its environment.

Now what is the moon a replicate of? How did its forbear shape the moon?

Oh, whilst we are at it
Do snowflakes replicate?


If you define "Darwinian evolution" in the same way Charles Darwin strictly prescribed; as a process with a mechanism., then you would see that the solar system "evolved" by modification descent and by means of primal selection.

If you define "Darwinian evolution " as only relating to speciation and biology then your calculation at foundation is base is flawed.

What do mean by "Darwinian evolution" sir? The tradition or the fact?

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Re: One bang one process.

#3602  Postby pfrankinstein » Nov 21, 2022 9:14 am

Testing the core understanding of the key subject here in psudoscience.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3603  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 9:39 am

Every word you use means something completely different.

Testing, for example.

You've not tested anything at all.

In fact, you resist any degree of criticism, refusing to acknowledge any of your litany of errors.

So 'testing' - no.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3604  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 9:41 am

pfrankinstein wrote:If you define "Darwinian evolution" in the same way Charles Darwin strictly prescribed; as a process with a mechanism., then you would see that the solar system "evolved" by modification descent and by means of primal selection.

If you define "Darwinian evolution " as only relating to speciation and biology then your calculation at foundation is base is flawed.

What do mean by "Darwinian evolution" sir? The tradition or the fact?



Internally contradictory, otherwise known as attempting to have your cake and eat it, and all notionally achieved by you making declarations about how you're right and everyone else is wrong.

The reality, regardless of your endless self-aggrandizing posturing, is that evolution by natural selection requires three core ingredients to occur.

Your vapid guff lacks all three. Dismissed.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3605  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 9:44 am

Or you could stop yammering and start facing up to the challenges presented over years... like for example:

What's the Solar System's unit of inheritance?

(approximately the 50th time asked in this thread)


Can't answer it? Yeah, because you don't know what you're talking about. Your simple comprehension of the topic means you believe that your answer is sufficient, but when you actually know what you're talking about, you'd immediately recognize that your attempted analogy fails amounting to nothing more than equivocation.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

In logic, equivocation ("calling two different things by the same name") is an informal fallacy resulting from the use of a particular word/expression in multiple senses within an argument.[1][2]

It is a type of ambiguity that stems from a phrase having two or more distinct meanings, not from the grammar or structure of the sentence.[1]



ev·o·lu·tion

noun
noun: evolution; plural noun: evolutions

1.
the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.

2.
the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form.
"the forms of written languages undergo constant evolution"

3.
the giving off of a gaseous product, or of heat.
"the evolution of oxygen occurs rapidly in this process"

4.
a pattern of movements or maneuvers.
"silk ribbons waving in fanciful evolutions"

5.
dated
the extraction of a root from a given quantity



bank
noun
noun: bank; plural noun: banks

1.
a financial establishment that invests money deposited by customers, pays it out when required, makes loans at interest, and exchanges currency.
"I paid the money straight into my bank"

2.
the land alongside or sloping down to a river or lake.
"willows lined the bank"

3.
a slope, mass, or mound of a particular substance.
"a bank of snow"
an elevation in the seabed or a riverbed; a mudbank or sandbank.
a transverse slope given to a road, railroad, or sports track to enable vehicles or runners to maintain speed around a curve.
the sideways tilt of an aircraft when turning in flight.
"flying with small amounts of bank"

4.
a set or series of similar things, especially electrical or electronic devices, grouped together in rows.

5.
a stock of something available for use when required.
"a blood bank"
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Re: One bang one process.

#3606  Postby Fenrir » Nov 21, 2022 10:11 am

3.
the giving off of a gaseous product, or of heat.


Nailed it
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Re: One bang one process.

#3607  Postby pfrankinstein » Nov 21, 2022 12:23 pm

thrower Or you could stop yammering and start facing up to the challenges presented over years... like for example:]

What's the Solar System's unit of inheritance? snip.

The unit of inheritance in the protoplanetary disc is the "memory" of interaction, that memory is stored in the inorganic material itself and expressed according to circumstances and by the physical laws of nature.

Evolution "the process" is reliant on memory storage and a means of passing past knowledge on

When inorganic material is drawn toward a star, interaction is forced in a semi enclosed environment.

The accumulation of primitively selected result heaped on result would be The slowed down mechanical explanation of a flowing system.

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Re: One bang one process.

#3608  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 2:29 pm

pfrankinstein wrote:
The unit of inheritance in the protoplanetary disc is the "memory" of interaction, that memory is stored in the inorganic material itself and expressed according to circumstances and by the physical laws of nature.


Evidence, please.

Provide a single citation in any of the scientific literature showing that the protoplanetary disc is capable of storing any kind of information that is able to act as, or be part of, a unit of inheritance.




pfrankinstein wrote:Evolution "the process" is reliant on memory storage and a means of passing past knowledge on


False - I explained why you were wrong before, feel free to inform yourself. No 'knowledge' exists anywhere in the system. That's a flawed metaphor conveying entirely the wrong picture of what's physically occurring.



pfrankinstein wrote:When inorganic material is drawn toward a star, interaction is forced in a semi enclosed environment.

The accumulation of primitively selected result heaped on result would be The slowed down mechanical explanation of a flowing system.


None of which is undergoing any form of selection at all. All that's happening is gravitation. Again, all this really amounts to is that Y follows X and there's no more to it than that.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3609  Postby BWE » Nov 21, 2022 3:33 pm

Inheritance isn't the be all end all. Memory is indeed unique to evolving systems and makes a decent foundation for a theory.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3610  Postby BWE » Nov 21, 2022 4:29 pm

I guess what I'm wondering is why do you care that Paul chooses to think about evolution as systemic rather than biological? What is the downside?
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Re: One bang one process.

#3611  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 4:51 pm

BWE wrote:Inheritance isn't the be all end all.


So you keep saying, yet life is clearly characteristically different from any other system you can name.


BWE wrote:IMemory is indeed unique to evolving systems and makes a decent foundation for a theory.


Just need evidence, eh.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3612  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 4:51 pm

BWE wrote:I guess what I'm wondering is why do you care that Paul chooses to think about evolution as systemic rather than biological? What is the downside?



I already addressed this: what you're doing now isn't steelmanning, it's just making it all up for him.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3613  Postby romansh » Nov 21, 2022 4:53 pm

pfrankinstein wrote:If you define "Darwinian evolution" in the same way Charles Darwin strictly prescribed; as a process with a mechanism., then you would see that the solar system "evolved" by modification descent and by means of primal selection.

Wow? Darwin became famous for defining processes have mechanisms, which was brilliant on his part. No wonder science was held back for centuries. But a little more seriously no I don't define Darwinian evolution that way.

Of course, your: the solar system "evolved" by modification descent and by means of primal selection. is a word salad.
What is being modified?
What is being selected preferentially?
Also, you are using "evolved" in the non-Darwinian sense.

pfrankinstein wrote:If you define "Darwinian evolution " as only relating to speciation and biology then your calculation at foundation is base is flawed.

No, I don't define it strictly in the biological sense either. I am sure I have said so several times. Why you keep ignoring this I don't know.

pfrankinstein wrote:What do mean by "Darwinian evolution" sir? The tradition or the fact?

Good question.
I would say fact and here is a tiny bit of detail to the mechanism of Darwinian evolution ... I have posted it several times.
romansh wrote:To have evolution we must have all three of the following
1) A system that replicates
2) The replicates are similar but not identical
3) An environment where some replicates replicate preferentially


And that reminds me, you have not answered my question. Do snowflakes replicate?
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Re: One bang one process.

#3614  Postby romansh » Nov 21, 2022 4:55 pm

BWE wrote:Inheritance isn't the be all end all.

But it is sort of essential for Darwinian evolution is it not?
BWE wrote: why do you [ST] care that Paul chooses to think about evolution as systemic rather than biological? What is the downside?

I am not sure Spearthrower does think of it in purely biological way. I have posted system independent definitions of evolution and I think Spearthrower largely accepts my point of view. Spearthrower can correct me if I am wrong.
Last edited by romansh on Nov 21, 2022 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3615  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 4:56 pm

romansh wrote:
Wow? Darwin became famous for defining processes have mechanisms, which was brilliant on his part.


Words Paul learned earlier in the thread and now just repeats thinking that using the words means it's more credible.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3616  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 4:58 pm

romansh wrote:
BWE wrote:Inheritance isn't the be all end all.


But it is sort of essential for Darwinian evolution is it not?



It's also specific to the type of selection nominally being discussed, and despite the repetitive equivocation, completely unlike other systems that have been named.

I don't think we're ever going to surpass that equivocation: it's what passes for the meat of the argument.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3617  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 5:07 pm

https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentra ... 009-0128-1

Natural selection is a non-random difference in reproductive output among replicating entities, often due indirectly to differences in survival in a particular environment, leading to an increase in the proportion of beneficial, heritable characteristics within a population from one generation to the next.


None of this is applicable to solar system evolution, planetary evolution, or the evolution of any non-living entity - that's because while evolution does mean 'change over time', it has a quite specifically different meaning in Biology despite sharing the same name, just as the term 'selection' has a very specific meaning. Similar to the similarity between the word 'theory' in general usage, and 'theory' in science, this may well cause some confusion among the poorly informed, but the fact remains that the means of natural selection isn't present in any of those systems. Projecting such onto it isn't indicative of creativity, or open-mindedness, or any other positive trait: it's just wrong.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3618  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 21, 2022 5:16 pm

romansh wrote:
I am not sure Spearthrower does think of it in purely biological way. I have posted system independent definitions of evolution and I think Spearthrower largely accepts my point of view. Spearthrower can correct me if I am wrong.


BWE knows perfectly well that I spent many posts agreeing that there is utility in many different levels of analysis, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore inconvenient bits to make stuff work at our preferred level. Different levels of analysis still need to respect the material facts.

I would also imagine that BWE has seen me post the same thing as you did many times, albeit using different language. 3 necessary ingredients - if the phenomenon being analysed lacks them, whatever process is happening isn't analogous to natural selection. To claim that something akin to natural selection is happening absent those ingredients either means you've made a discovery that will almost certainly result in a Nobel Prize, or, as is the case here, just indicates unfamiliarity and misconception.

In fact, that same link as above:

The unfortunate reality, as noted nearly 20 years ago by Bishop and Anderson (1990), is that “the concepts of evolution by natural selection are far more difficult for students to grasp than most biologists imagine.” Despite common assumptions to the contrary by both students and instructors, it is evident that misconceptions about natural selection are the rule, whereas a working understanding is the rare exception.
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Re: One bang one process.

#3619  Postby BWE » Nov 21, 2022 6:20 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
BWE wrote:Inheritance isn't the be all end all.


So you keep saying, yet life is clearly characteristically different from any other system you can name.


BWE wrote:IMemory is indeed unique to evolving systems and makes a decent foundation for a theory.


Just need evidence, eh.

Evidence that memory is a defining feature of an adaptive system? I mean, it's not really something obscure but if that's throwing you off, I'm happy to explain. Or do you mean evidence for something else?
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Re: One bang one process.

#3620  Postby BWE » Nov 21, 2022 6:22 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
BWE wrote:I guess what I'm wondering is why do you care that Paul chooses to think about evolution as systemic rather than biological? What is the downside?



I already addressed this: what you're doing now isn't steelmanning, it's just making it all up for him.

A) since I only barely understand what he is trying to say, "making it up for him" is equivalent to "guessing what he might be trying to say".
B) what is steelmanning? I will Google but..
C) I didn't realize you had addressed this before. Was it recently? Can you like to that post?
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