Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#281  Postby Paul Almond » Oct 24, 2010 4:21 am

Timinane wrote:WTF Paul Almond?

It was a facetious comment based on the discussion of people asserting ownership of stuff: Shawn ( :yuk: ) used to file DMCAs on everything that moved (in any frame of reference). "Where is he and how he is doing now?" I wonder. (Actually, I don't: That was rhetorical - so anyone who knows, please feel free not to tell me at your earliest convenience.)
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#282  Postby hotshoe » Oct 24, 2010 4:22 am

Crocodile Gandhi wrote:I've just had a look on RD.net and I've noticed that there aren't any topics on this. Surely that can't be through none of their members being aware of it. Is discussion of this being moderated out of the public eye?

Yep, comments are being "moderated" out of existence over there.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#283  Postby Paul Almond » Oct 24, 2010 4:23 am

Crocodile Gandhi wrote:I've just had a look on RD.net and I've noticed that there aren't any topics on this. Surely that can't be through none of their members being aware of it. Is discussion of this being moderated out of the public eye?

Maybe they take the view that using their own website for discussion of something may not be helpful in a court case? They may want all the discussion with which they are involved to be done with lawyers around - and understandably if that is the case.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#284  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Oct 24, 2010 4:23 am

Who moderates the new RDF site? Aren't they interested in the truth? Or do they take direct orders from others above now, and they were told to hold all talk on this news?
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#285  Postby Crocodile Gandhi » Oct 24, 2010 4:26 am

Paul Almond wrote:
Crocodile Gandhi wrote:I've just had a look on RD.net and I've noticed that there aren't any topics on this. Surely that can't be through none of their members being aware of it. Is discussion of this being moderated out of the public eye?

Maybe they take the view that using their own website for discussion of something may not be helpful in a court case? They may want all the discussion with which they are involved to be done with lawyers around - and understandably if that is the case.


Certainly. If there are valid legal reasons, then I can't see a problem with it. If there aren't valid legal reasons, then I think the members of that website, many of whom would have contributed to the charity, should have a right to make comment about it.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#286  Postby BrandySpears » Oct 24, 2010 4:27 am

I don't buy the claim that Norton used over $100k for improvements to her house and then listed it as one of the cheapest houses on her block. Doesn't make any sense.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/4532-mary-e ... ks,-ca_rb/
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#287  Postby Agrippina » Oct 24, 2010 4:38 am

It didn't take long though. Didn't someone say when we started this, that they would have a falling-out. But of such major proportions!! :shock:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#288  Postby byofrcs » Oct 24, 2010 4:45 am

I don't think the copyright of the materials will be as clear cut a case but I could be wrong. It does seem to be the get-out-of-jail card though. This isn't an obvious employee/employer relationship but more partnership. The old RDF had ambiguous Forum rules on copyright that I complained about then in early 2009 and though Josh had replied that was not really the answer I wanted so gave up. The issue of copyrights seems to have raised its head again only this time its a little bit more serious.The forum rules were boilerplate and I didn't like them and I wouldn't be surprised if there was boilerplate all over the place in the organisation with no clear statements from either party as to who owned what.

Actually going back over those threads is weird as I now recognise the same people only they are now *here* so certainly seems that much of the community (and with the same people being banned ! e.g. Seth) had migrated.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#289  Postby Timinane » Oct 24, 2010 4:53 am

BrandySpears wrote:I don't buy the claim that Norton used over $100k for improvements to her house and then listed it as one of the cheapest houses on her block. Doesn't make any sense.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/4532-mary-e ... ks,-ca_rb/


You assume these two were being smart?

I think the alleged embezzlement was not very well planned seeing as it was found out by an Oxford graduate.
An Oxford graduate with such poor judgment in he hired, dedicated a book, and did not oversee the embezzler which enabled the alleged embezzlement to go on for a few years.

I'm not surprised after hearing this news a few old timers found a place to talk about it, you all cared about the RDF and now it appears it has been attacked from within so wanting to talk about it is natural.

Calling a certain site designer a fink might be a little overkill though.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#290  Postby trc » Oct 24, 2010 5:21 am

In the music industry (which i am familiar with), and , i expect, the movie/tv industry, this kind of fraud is difficult to perpetuate as before you release a DVD or CD/Audio recording commercially as everyone who has/will have copyright in the product (the actors, musicians, writers etc.) all get paid agreed royalties usually based upon units sold. And music publishers and collection societies regularly audit record companies to make sure that the units they are _saying_ they sold reasonably match the units sold(they hget access to the companies books to do this)

I imagine upper branch/RDF got all speakers who appeared in any of the dvds to rescind any royalties they would otherwise have been due (depending on the copyright law in the given country of release/production). Richard would've been better off paying everyone involved a small token royalty as that would have made sure the production/distribution system was more transparent.

Josh had complete control of the entire distribution chain(from creation through to sale/distribution). If richard had to chip in everytime the DVDs had to be repressed(when sold out), it would have been so harder for josh to get away with this.

i also notice that you can't buy anything on the store that josh didn't create. Richard's book publishers would've required ongoing payment every time josh sold richard's books. Josh would never have got away with ripping off the publisher.
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Dawkins accuses Tinomen of 375k theft-chickens roosting?

#291  Postby recursive prophet » Oct 24, 2010 5:26 am

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I didn't see this story anywhere else here and thought the evo crowd in particular would want to read this. I apologize if it WAS posted and I just missed it. Hard to believe someone here hasn't heard this story and posted it. Hopefully staff will delete this thread if that is the case. Like Lilly Thomlin says, "No matter how cynical I get, I can't keep up!!" It's both funny and sad, the latter because the theists will have a field day with this story. :naughty: :(

Evolutionary biologist and best-selling author Richard Dawkins claims an employee of his Foundation for Reason and Science embezzled $375,000 from the online store he ran for Dawkins' charity, by claiming it made only $30,000 in 3 years. http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/10/22/31283.htm
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#292  Postby Globe » Oct 24, 2010 6:11 am

J. TImonen's answer online.

http://joshtimonen.com/post/1387207318/ ... e-betrayal

The Ultimate Betrayal

It’s a sad, sad day today. All I’ll say at this point is that the truth will prevail. It won’t begin to fix the damage that’s been done, but the truth will prevail.

With the internet, you can so easily spread outrageous lies, destroy someone’s reputation, self-worth and dignity, and not even have any evidence to back up your malicious attacks. And it amazes me that so many people are so quick to spew venom about people and a situation they know nothing about. Even after my name is cleared, the words and attacks will remain.

A quick aside about the closing of the RichardDawkins.net forum: I can understand that this decision was devastating to many of the forum users, and for that I am sorry. It was never our intention to hurt anyone through that process, it was purely a political decision. It’s frustrating to have been the fall-guy for this. I am am not Richard Dawkins, I am not the Richard Dawkins Foundation Board of Trustees, and I did not act independently. This was a decision made by the organization, that I then executed. I kept my mouth shut through all of the personal attacks to protect the foundation, and to not get personally involved. The decisions that were made by RDF had nothing to do with my personal opinions or feelings on forums or content. They were based solely on protecting Richard Dawkins, RDF, and their reputations.

This year has certainly been the darkest time of my life, the ultimate betrayal, and then the hordes of mostly-anonymous internet users decide to pile it on. It’s making it very hard for me to see the light at the end of this tunnel, where I might regain some kind of hope for humanity, and find motivation again to dedicate my life to improving it in some small way.

I’ve never had irreconcilable enemies before, ever. This is new for me. I’ve never before been the target of a baseless vendetta. But I’m dealing with it as sanely and calmly as I possibly can.

I worked myself to the bone over the last four years to promote reason and science, hoping that my small role in this movement could affect some lasting positive change. I refuse to let this smear campaign destroy me. I created the Scarlet Letter “A” icon and its associated campaign to bring us all together, not tear us apart. I hope to be able to continue on that mission.

This lawsuit is a joke, and completely ridiculous. The accusations are baseless and unfounded.

I will be releasing a public statement soon through my legal team Costa Abrams & Coate, LLP.

Josh Timonen


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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#293  Postby joshtimonen » Oct 24, 2010 6:14 am

Hi Everyone,

I guess it's time for me to talk...
http://joshtimonen.com/post/1387207318/ ... e-betrayal
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#294  Postby CJ » Oct 24, 2010 6:20 am

Josh Timonen wrote:The Ultimate Betrayal

It’s a sad, sad day today. All I’ll say at this point is that the truth will prevail. It won’t begin to fix the damage that’s been done, but the truth will prevail.

With the internet, you can so easily spread outrageous lies, destroy someone’s reputation, self-worth and dignity, and not even have any evidence to back up your malicious attacks. And it amazes me that so many people are so quick to spew venom about people and a situation they know nothing about. Even after my name is cleared, the words and attacks will remain.

A quick aside about the closing of the RichardDawkins.net forum: I can understand that this decision was devastating to many of the forum users, and for that I am sorry. It was never our intention to hurt anyone through that process, it was purely a political decision. It’s frustrating to have been the fall-guy for this. I am am not Richard Dawkins, I am not the Richard Dawkins Foundation Board of Trustees, and I did not act independently. This was a decision made by the organization, that I then executed. I kept my mouth shut through all of the personal attacks to protect the foundation, and to not get personally involved. The decisions that were made by RDF had nothing to do with my personal opinions or feelings on forums or content. They were based solely on protecting Richard Dawkins, RDF, and their reputations.

This year has certainly been the darkest time of my life, the ultimate betrayal, and then the hordes of mostly-anonymous internet users decide to pile it on. It’s making it very hard for me to see the light at the end of this tunnel, where I might regain some kind of hope for humanity, and find motivation again to dedicate my life to improving it in some small way.

I’ve never had irreconcilable enemies before, ever. This is new for me. I’ve never before been the target of a baseless vendetta. But I’m dealing with it as sanely and calmly as I possibly can.

I worked myself to the bone over the last four years to promote reason and science, hoping that my small role in this movement could affect some lasting positive change. I refuse to let this smear campaign destroy me. I created the Scarlet Letter “A” icon and its associated campaign to bring us all together, not tear us apart. I hope to be able to continue on that mission.

This lawsuit is a joke, and completely ridiculous. The accusations are baseless and unfounded.

I will be releasing a public statement soon through my legal team Costa Abrams & Coate, LLP.

Josh Timonen

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It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#295  Postby Durro » Oct 24, 2010 6:21 am

:popcorn:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#296  Postby starr » Oct 24, 2010 6:21 am

joshtimonen wrote:Hi Everyone,

I guess it's time for me to talk...
http://joshtimonen.com/post/1387207318/ ... e-betrayal


Welcome to the forum Josh. :cheers:
stijndeloose wrote: A wise decision that anyone can make: if you feel tempted to attack a RatSkep member, take a break.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#297  Postby Made of Stars » Oct 24, 2010 6:21 am

joshtimonen wrote:This was a decision made by the organization, that I then executed.

I think you'll find, Josh, that it wasn't the 'take down' that people are bitter about, so much as the way it was executed, by you.

There were months of (attempted) communication by the moderation team to try and ensure a smooth transition to a new format. The summary action, tone of the communication, and account deletions were unnecessary and outraging to people who'd volunteered large tracts of time and intellectual energy to make the forum what it was.

I doubt you'll find any sympathisers here.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#298  Postby Mr.Samsa » Oct 24, 2010 6:22 am


!
MODNOTE
Welcome Josh..

@Everyone: This is just a gentle reminder that our Forum Users' Agreement protects members from personal attacks and this now includes Josh. I'm sure everyone will be civil but just in case anyone decides to engage in insults, please be aware that such comments may face sanctions.

Thanks.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#299  Postby z8000783 » Oct 24, 2010 6:23 am

Josh Timonen wrote:A quick aside about the closing of the RichardDawkins.net forum: I can understand that this decision was devastating to many of the forum users, and for that I am sorry. It was never our intention to hurt anyone through that process, it was purely a political decision. It’s frustrating to have been the fall-guy for this.

He still doesn't get it after all this time.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#300  Postby z8000783 » Oct 24, 2010 6:23 am

Mr.Samsa wrote:MODNOTE
Welcome Josh..

@Everyone: This is just a gentle reminder that our Forum Users' Agreement protects members from personal attacks and this now includes Josh. I'm sure everyone will be civil but just in case anyone decides to engage in insults, please be aware that such comments may face sanctions.

Thanks.

Are you sure this is the real Josh? Anyone can set up a username.

Could be a clever ploy though to stop all the personal attacks.

John
Last edited by z8000783 on Oct 24, 2010 6:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
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