A rational belief in the afterlife

Discussions on astrology, homeopathy and superstition etc.

Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#61  Postby sennekuyl » Sep 13, 2012 1:06 am

DrParisetti wrote:Dear GrabamH, when I spoke about the complexity of the issue I was accused of being patronising...

You ask for "some evidence". The The Handbook of Near-Death Experiences: Thirty Years of Investigation (Holden, Greyson, James, eds) lists 65 papers published in peer-reviewed journals, covering a total of 3,500 cases in four continents. More, key research has been produced in the 6 years after the Handbook was published.

What do I do?


Post links & references to the first paper? List the claims it defends? Woods are built out of an accumulation of flora. (Sorry 'bout that obscure interjection; had some try dismiss my comments because I was supposedly looking too hard at the 'trees'.)
Defining Australians:
When returning home from overseas, you expect to be brutally strip-searched by Customs – just in case you're trying to sneak in fruit.
sennekuyl
 
Posts: 2936
Age: 46
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#62  Postby Serena » Sep 13, 2012 1:26 am

It's interesting that if the brain is altered by just a tiny bit, this could cause speech impediments, mood changes and memory loss. It's a very sensitive organ. Yet somehow after death, the brain completely recovers, comprehends well and still speaking coherently.

I never understood reincarnation either. A newly born mind is practically a blank slate with the exception of maybe some basic moral codes and other basic learning abilities. It doesn't really contain any characteristics 0f a past person and thus wouldn't be that person. Continuous bits of energy sort of transfers back into nature as heat and light, it doesn't carry any remains of a past person. And where did the cycle start before the same life began recycling?

We've been dead for billions in the before life which we all had nothing to complain about, I don't see why 'after life' would be any worse.
Serena
 
Posts: 1

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#63  Postby Oldskeptic » Sep 13, 2012 1:48 am

DrParisetti wrote:Aw-right, then. No immediate explanations for how a non-functioning brain produces a highly structured conscious experience, remembered in vivid details at 25 or 30 years' distance. I'm sure some will come soon.


Well first you're going to have to show that non-functioning brains do produce conscious experiences.

Now, we should also consider explanations for the fact that this consciousness appears to be operating from outside the physical body, a fact corroborated by vast anecdotal AND experimental evidence. This data also accounts for the fact that the NDE occurs WHEN the brain is not functioning, and not before or after.


Nope, consciousness is a property of the mind, and the mind is what the brain does. It is that simple.

(one little digression: it seems that anecdotes here are considered like utter shite, nonsense, fantasy and akin to child pornography. Were you ever hospitalised? Did you ever give your clinical history to a doctor? That's an anecdote, and your life depends on it. Have you ever given evidence in a court? That's an anecdote, and people can be sentenced to death for it. Anecdotes can be false or wrong, but cannot so easily be discarded.)

I don't think that you understand the definition of anecdote.
There is nothing so absurd that some philosopher will not say it - Cicero.

Traditionally these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead - Stephen Hawking
User avatar
Oldskeptic
 
Posts: 7395
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#64  Postby Nicko » Sep 13, 2012 2:29 am

@DrParisetti:

We are now four pages into this thread. In your OP, you alluded that you had an argument for the survival of ... something after bodily death. Could you please outline for us what that argument is?

As regards NDEs as evidence, I would say that we have good evidence to suggest that a psychological explanation for the phenomenon would be sufficient. In particular, I would refer you to "Imagining the past" by Elizabeth F. Loftus (Psychologist Nov 2001, p. 584).

It would seem to me that the obligation you face - aside from actually providing the argument you allege to be in possession of - would be to show why psychology cannot explain the phenomenon before delving into the realm of parapsychology.
"Democracy is asset insurance for the rich. Stop skimping on the payments."

-- Mark Blyth
User avatar
Nicko
 
Name: Nick Williams
Posts: 8643
Age: 47
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#65  Postby Onyx8 » Sep 13, 2012 3:22 am

Didn't someone do the experiment where they put pictures on top of the cabinets in a surgery and then asked those of the patients who had experienced OOB floating above the table stuff what the pictures were and they all failed? Everything else they reported was visible from the gurney.

My googlefu is shit, I looked but....
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
User avatar
Onyx8
Moderator
 
Posts: 17520
Age: 67
Male

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#66  Postby Nicko » Sep 13, 2012 4:47 am

DrParisetti wrote:This data also accounts for the fact that the NDE occurs WHEN the brain is not functioning, and not before or after.


No. NDEs are reported to have been subjectively experienced as occurring when the brain has been assumed to have been non-functional.

You see the three problems with that? In case you can't, they're the bolded bits.
"Democracy is asset insurance for the rich. Stop skimping on the payments."

-- Mark Blyth
User avatar
Nicko
 
Name: Nick Williams
Posts: 8643
Age: 47
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#67  Postby chairman bill » Sep 13, 2012 5:27 am

DrParisetti wrote:Aw-right, then. No immediate explanations for how a non-functioning brain produces a highly structured conscious experience ...
Non-functioning? For how long after 'death' does a brain retain active processes? Do you know? Do you know what residual electrical activity might persist? And do you have any idea what happens to the brain once the person has been resuscitated?

... remembered in vivid details at 25 or 30 years' distance ...
I'm not sure that memory has overly much to tell us here.

Now, we should also consider explanations for the fact that this consciousness appears to be operating from outside the physical body, a fact corroborated by vast anecdotal AND experimental evidence. This data also accounts for the fact that the NDE occurs WHEN the brain is not functioning, and not before or after.
The non-functioning brain bit hasn't been established, and I've previously suggested some mechanisms to explain that OOB experience.

(one little digression: it seems that anecdotes here are considered like utter shite, nonsense, fantasy and akin to child pornography. Were you ever hospitalised? Did you ever give your clinical history to a doctor? That's an anecdote, and your life depends on it. Have you ever given evidence in a court? That's an anecdote, and people can be sentenced to death for it. Anecdotes can be false or wrong, but cannot so easily be discarded.)
I don't consider anecdotes anything like you suggest, and anecdotes are clearly evidence, for the existence of anecdotes at the very least. Some are no doubt honest rememberings of events, some may be embellished, subject to interpretation, and so on. The reliability of such accounts is doubtful, and so of less than objective status. The similarity of account suggests some similar experience, some similar process underlying the event, and the subsequent interpretation. What we shouldn't do with anecdotes is to take them at face value.

And we should consider explanations for the fact this highly structured experience is strikingly similar, independently from age, race, sex, language, historic period and - crucially - religious beliefs.
Quite. Similar organisms, with similar brains & biological processes, have similar experiences near death. How surprising! Or not.

And we should consider explanations for the fact that children as young as three or four have the same highly structured conscious experience as adults do, with exactly the same key features.
See above. It maybe points to a more primitive part of the brain being involved in the process.

And we should explain that this experience induces the same profound, life-transforming psychological changes in all those who had it, regardless of all the variables mentioned above, and that these changes remain at 10, 15, 20 years from the experience itself.
People are like people, and our psychology is remarkably similar. Can you account for the people who don't have these experiences?
“There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” Terry Pratchett
User avatar
chairman bill
RS Donator
 
Posts: 28354
Male

Country: UK: fucked since 2010
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#68  Postby twistor59 » Sep 13, 2012 6:29 am

DrParisetti wrote:Sorry, Twistor, who exactly is some random dude on the internet? me? well, possibly, but I am sure that most of the readership of this forum is well acquainted with the basic tenants of contemporary neurophysiology. It does not take a PhD to understand the fashionable equation mind=brain, and therefore no brain = no mind.

can we please go past this point and express some opinions? thanks


I was trying to convey that we, as non experts, aren't able to respond with any authority to the question you posed, namely:

twistor59 wrote:
DrParisetti wrote:

Well, I understand that when there is no detectable electrical activity in the brain, a person is considered clinically dead. I also understand that (although this is debatable) no detectable electrical activity may not mean that the brain has shut down completely, and there may be some residual neuronal activity in the brain stem. Do we agree that, dead or not dead, such a status is incompatible with a) the production of consciousness or elements thereof and, especially, b) the onset of a highly structured conscious experience and c) the production of detailed memories which are perfectly conserved?



I think the only person who could give an educated opinion on that which I would consider worthwhile would be a neuroscientist. Not some random dudes on the internet. Sorry Ratskeppers.



I was making the point that "no detectable electrical activity in the brain" is an ill-defined criterion, and "no detectable activity" is not the same as "no activity". As several people have pointed out, this is a tricky field and really needs an expert to comment. As far as neuroscience is concerned are "random dudes", not experts. (Unless we have a closet neuroscientist in our midst :shifty:)
A soul in tension that's learning to fly
Condition grounded but determined to try
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earthbound misfit, I
User avatar
twistor59
RS Donator
 
Posts: 4966
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#69  Postby GrahamH » Sep 13, 2012 6:35 am

DrParisetti wrote:Dear GrabamH, when I spoke about the complexity of the issue I was accused of being patronising...

You ask for "some evidence". The The Handbook of Near-Death Experiences: Thirty Years of Investigation (Holden, Greyson, James, eds) lists 65 papers published in peer-reviewed journals, covering a total of 3,500 cases in four continents. More, key research has been produced in the 6 years after the Handbook was published.

What do I do?


Presumably you find some of these papers compelling. How about picking one of the strongest cases and presenting it here, in detail.

It's no good arguing your case with vague references, quotes without context and anecdotes.
Last edited by GrahamH on Sep 13, 2012 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20419

Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#70  Postby babel » Sep 13, 2012 6:45 am

DrParisetti wrote:All right - after a warm welcome by a number of members of this community, I am ready to face the firing squad. The major, humongous challenge for me is how to begin to scratch the surface of my argument and still keep to a reasonable length of posting.

I'll begin by making my key statement:

based on the available evidence, a rational person can believe in the afterlife.

Based on the fact I have bought a lottery ticket, I, as a rational being, believe I can win the jackpot. Unluckily, my belief gives me no guarantee of actually winning big.

High expectations from your intro thread, big letdown as far as the actual thread is concerned.
Milton Jones: "Just bought a broken second hand time machine - plan to fix it, have lots of adventures then go back and not buy it, he he idiots.."
User avatar
babel
 
Posts: 4675
Age: 43
Male

Country: Belgium
Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#71  Postby Steve » Sep 13, 2012 6:57 am

:suspicious:
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny
Blue Mountain Center of Meditation
User avatar
Steve
RS Donator
 
Posts: 6908
Age: 69
Male

New Zealand (nz)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#72  Postby DrParisetti » Sep 13, 2012 7:41 am

Thanks for this mass of reactions. Let me react to a few common points that emerge from the many posts.

1. I never claimed that my little book in itself provides the evidence. I never claimed that I performed meta analyses, or carried out independent research. I have written an introduction to the subject of survival citing anecdotal, empirical and experimental evidence proposed by others, particularly focussing on what I described as the collelctive weight of the evidence. As to "selective picking" of evidence, I would really be most interested if somebody could cite studies that disprove some of the evidence. I don't mean studies saying that the evidence is generically impossible.

2. I have taken NDEs as a field of research strongly indicative that the mind can function independently of the physical brain, and suggestive of an afterlife. There are others, and - perhaps next year... ;-) - we may come to some of them. I do not have an "explanation" for the data, spiritual or scientific. No akashic records, God or zero point field. I think it is enormously interesting to try to find one, rather that trying to explain the data away with age-old theories which have been dealt with by those who research this by profession.

3. Many posters take the position that the conscious experience owes to the fact that the brain is not "dead" and there is some residual activity. Professionals in this field, who do this for a living and are not related to NDE research, say that this is categorically impossible. There may be residual activity but not even the most basic, survival-related functions of the brain stem shut down. People don't even breath autonomously, but are supposed to have a structured conscious experience, generally described as "more real that everyday reality"? And produce long-term memory?

4. Other arguments are recursive. How can you have consciousness when there is no brain? Well, that is my question!

5. Fantasy, fear of death, hallucination, CO2, hypoxia and drugs have been dealt with in the landmark 2001 Lancet paper by Pim Van Lommel et al.
http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archiv ... et_NDE.htm

6. We have indications that people are conscious at the moment when they are being resuscitated from a long series of well documented anecdotes. But we agreed that we will leave them aside. (Still, it would be interesting to understand why people would invent such elaborate stories, lie, and involve others in their well-orchestrated deception...). But then:

Recollections of death: A medical investigation (New York: Harper and Row, 1982). Cardiologist Michael Sabom reports on his careful and systematic work. The first part of the research consisted of collecting data: Sabom used detailed protocols to interview patients who reported visual experiences while undergoing cardiac surgery or in connection with cardiac arrests. He then went on to consult with members of the medical teams and other witnesses, and also examined the clinical records of these patients, in order to determine to what extent these perceptions could be verified. In most instances, Sabom was able to provide compelling evidence that these patients were reporting precise details concerning their operation, the equipment used, or characteristics of the medical personnel involved, which they could not have known about by normal means.

The second part of Dr. Sabom’s investigation consisted of a control procedure, devised to further test the reality of what the patients reported. He identified 25 chronic coronary care patients who had never been resuscitated, and asked them to imagine what the procedure would be like as if they were a spectator of their own resuscitation, much like the NDEers experience. The results from this control group were intriguing, to say the least. 22 of his 25 control respondents gave descriptions of their hypothetical resuscitation that were riddled with errors; their accounts were often vague, diffuse, and general. According to Sabom, the reports from patients who had actually been resuscitated were never marred by such errors and were considerably more detailed as well.

The procedure was replicated by Penny Sartori in her 2008 PhD dissemination, The Near-Death Experiences of Hospitalized Intensive Care Patients: A Five Year Clinical Study, with exactly the same results.

And, critics have to explain the continuity of experience described by NDErs. I have to rush out to work now and will come back to this.

7. Vision in the blind: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind: A Study of Apparent Eyeless Vision http://www.pdfdetective.com/pdfs/269424.pdf

I have to go to work now and then travel. I will come back tomorrow with more selected references.
______________________________________________
vice
User avatar
DrParisetti
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Piero Calvi-Parisetti
Posts: 19
Age: 63
Male

Country: UK
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#73  Postby GrahamH » Sep 13, 2012 7:51 am

DrParisetti wrote:Thanks for this mass of reactions. Let me react to a few common points that emerge from the many posts.

1. I never claimed that my little book in itself provides the evidence. I never claimed that I performed meta analyses, or carried out independent research. I have written an introduction to the subject of survival citing anecdotal, empirical and experimental evidence proposed by others, particularly focussing on what I described as the collelctive weight of the evidence. As to "selective picking" of evidence, I would really be most interested if somebody could cite studies that disprove some of the evidence. I don't mean studies saying that the evidence is generically impossible.


From what I read of your book on an intial scan you have no citations in there.

A mass of anecdotes has little evidential value.

DrParisetti wrote:3. Many posters take the position that the conscious experience owes to the fact that the brain is not "dead" and there is some residual activity. Professionals in this field, who do this for a living and are not related to NDE research, say that this is categorically impossible. There may be residual activity but not even the most basic, survival-related functions of the brain stem shut down. People don't even breath autonomously, but are supposed to have a structured conscious experience, generally described as "more real that everyday reality"? And produce long-term memory?


Perhaps you could cite some of these professionsal describing what happens in the brain as it enteres and recovers from this low activity state.

DrParisetti wrote:6. We have indications that people are conscious at the moment when they are being resuscitated from a long series of well documented anecdotes. But we agreed that we will leave them aside. (Still, it would be interesting to understand why people would invent such elaborate stories, lie, and involve others in their well-orchestrated deception...). But then:

Recollections of death: A medical investigation (New York: Harper and Row, 1982). Cardiologist Michael Sabom reports on his careful and systematic work. The first part of the research consisted of collecting data: Sabom used detailed protocols to interview patients who reported visual experiences while undergoing cardiac surgery or in connection with cardiac arrests. He then went on to consult with members of the medical teams and other witnesses, and also examined the clinical records of these patients, in order to determine to what extent these perceptions could be verified. In most instances, Sabom was able to provide compelling evidence that these patients were reporting precise details concerning their operation, the equipment used, or characteristics of the medical personnel involved, which they could not have known about by normal means.
The second part of Dr. Sabom’s investigation consisted of a control procedure, devised to further test the reality of what the patients reported. He identified 25 chronic coronary care patients who had never been resuscitated, and asked them to imagine what the procedure would be like as if they were a spectator of their own resuscitation, much like the NDEers experience. The results from this control group were intriguing, to say the least. 22 of his 25 control respondents gave descriptions of their hypothetical resuscitation that were riddled with errors; their accounts were often vague, diffuse, and general. According to Sabom, the reports from patients who had actually been resuscitated were never marred by such errors and were considerably more detailed as well.

Perhaps this is something you want to go into in detail.


DrParisetti wrote:The procedure was replicated by Penny Sartori in her 2008 PhD dissemination, The Near-Death Experiences of Hospitalized Intensive Care Patients: A Five Year Clinical Study, with exactly the same results.

And, critics have to explain the continuity of experience described by NDErs. I have to rush out to work now and will come back to this.

7. Vision in the blind: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind: A Study of Apparent Eyeless Vision http://www.pdfdetective.com/pdfs/269424.pdf

I have to go to work now and then travel. I will come back tomorrow with more selected references.


Don't expect to rush out on buy lots of books and papers. If you have something to discuss here present the details, please.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20419

Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#74  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 13, 2012 7:57 am

DrParisetti wrote:Aw-right, then. No immediate explanations for how a non-functioning brain produces a highly structured conscious experience, remembered in vivid details at 25 or 30 years' distance. I'm sure some will come soon.

As an academic, you should know this: you are making the claim, you have to provide evidence of said claim.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31091
Age: 34
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#75  Postby DrParisetti » Sep 13, 2012 7:58 am

Oh, one more thing, quickly. Explaining the dramatic, long-standing psychological changes with "a brush with death". Oh, please! You will have to do a LOT more than that. Come on! How do you explain that only NDErs show this changes, an all those who had the same condition but did not have an NDE don't? I am a passionate mountain climber and peel off a face at 3,000 metres in 2009, flew for some 20 metres and fortunately only broke an ankle. That was quite a brush with death, and have none of the changes described in the studies.

And more from Pim Van Lommel, including on the "still functioning brain": http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/von ... sponse.htm
______________________________________________
vice
User avatar
DrParisetti
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Piero Calvi-Parisetti
Posts: 19
Age: 63
Male

Country: UK
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#76  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 13, 2012 7:59 am

DrParisetti wrote: All that has been done away years ago, and anyway doesn't mean anything when you consider that THE BRAIN IS NOT THERE.

Once again conviently ignoring the point that: NEITHER CONCIOUSNESS NOR MEMORY IS THERE EITHER.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31091
Age: 34
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#77  Postby DrParisetti » Sep 13, 2012 8:04 am

As an academic, you should know this: you are making the claim, you have to provide evidence of said claim.


No, dear sir. The claim here is that I have selectively hand picked pieces of evidence, ignoring other pieces contrary to my thesis. Please provide proof.

Don't expect to rush out on buy lots of books and papers.


OK, so we'll have a discussion on a very complex subject based on a few forum posts by a "dude on the internet"? mmmm... If I were to discuss abstract algebra, I would probably indeed buy at least a book...
______________________________________________
vice
User avatar
DrParisetti
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Piero Calvi-Parisetti
Posts: 19
Age: 63
Male

Country: UK
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#78  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 13, 2012 8:16 am

DrParisetti wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:As an academic, you should know this: you are making the claim, you have to provide evidence of said claim.


No, dear sir. The claim here is that I have selectively hand picked pieces of evidence, ignoring other pieces contrary to my thesis. Please provide proof.

Please learn how to quote properly.
You're either quote mining me or did not read to what point of your contributions I responded. I responded like this:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
DrParisetti wrote:Aw-right, then. No immediate explanations for how a non-functioning brain produces a highly structured conscious experience, remembered in vivid details at 25 or 30 years' distance. I'm sure some will come soon.

As an academic, you should know this: you are making the claim, you have to provide evidence of said claim.

My point is that you keep claiming that non-functioning brains experience things and remember things, when you have failed to present a single peer-reviewed study that supports this claim.
You cannot make an unsupported claim and then expect your opponents to explain or debunk it.

DrParisetti wrote:
Don't expect to rush out on buy lots of books and papers.


OK, so we'll have a discussion on a very complex subject based on a few forum posts by a "dude on the internet"? mmmm... If I were to discuss abstract algebra, I would probably indeed buy at least a book...

Your behaviour gives you an image of someone who's continously trying to dodge providing evidence.
You claim to have read or have acces to data about brain-dead people having NDE's, present quotations of these studies with the a link or other form of traceable reference.
Again, making claims without presenting evidence isn't good form nor convincing and certainly not up to academic standards.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31091
Age: 34
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#79  Postby sennekuyl » Sep 13, 2012 8:30 am

DrParisetti wrote:Thanks for this mass of reactions. Let me react to a few common points that emerge from the many posts.

1. I never claimed that my little book in itself provides the evidence. I never claimed that I performed meta analyses, or carried out independent research. I have written an introduction to the subject of survival citing anecdotal, empirical and experimental evidence proposed by others, particularly focussing on what I described as the collelctive weight of the evidence. As to "selective picking" of evidence, I would really be most interested if somebody could cite studies that disprove some of the evidence. I don't mean studies saying that the evidence is generically impossible.

We can't disprove anything of which we don't have evidence. We can really only say, "Now why would you think that?" Which, if you notice, is do you have evidence for that claim? Can you disprove leprechauns aren't stimulating the brains with artificial data on recovery?

2. I have taken NDEs as a field of research strongly indicative that the mind can function independently of the physical brain, and suggestive of an afterlife. There are others, and - perhaps next year... ;-) - we may come to some of them. I do not have an "explanation" for the data, spiritual or scientific. No akashic records, God or zero point field. I think it is enormously interesting to try to find one, rather that trying to explain the data away with age-old theories which have been dealt with by those who research this by profession.

3. Many posters take the position that the conscious experience owes to the fact that the brain is not "dead" and there is some residual activity. Professionals in this field, who do this for a living and are not related to NDE research, say that this is categorically impossible. There may be residual activity but not even the most basic, survival-related functions of the brain stem shut down. People don't even breath autonomously, but are supposed to have a structured conscious experience, generally described as "more real that everyday reality"? And produce long-term memory?

There should be papers on this. Can we see them please?

4. Other arguments are recursive. How can you have consciousness when there is no brain? Well, that is my question!

First demonstrate there is no brain. Then we can cover step 2.

<snip>

I've got to walk the dog, but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will ask sufficient questions about the papers while I'm gone.
Defining Australians:
When returning home from overseas, you expect to be brutally strip-searched by Customs – just in case you're trying to sneak in fruit.
sennekuyl
 
Posts: 2936
Age: 46
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#80  Postby trubble76 » Sep 13, 2012 8:35 am

DrParisetti wrote:

5. Fantasy, fear of death, hallucination, CO2, hypoxia and drugs have been dealt with in the landmark 2001 Lancet paper by Pim Van Lommel et al.
http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archiv ... et_NDE.htm



You dismiss all these potential contributory factors very easily. Having read the article, I'm not sure such dismissal is warranted.
It is hardly a definitive falsification, is it?

Our results show that medical factors cannot account for occurrence of NDE; although all patients had been clinically dead, most did not have NDE. Furthermore, seriousness of the crisis was not related to occurrence or depth of the experience. If purely physiological factors resulting from cerebral anoxia caused NDE, most of our patients should have had this experience. Patients' medication was also unrelated to frequency of NDE. Psychological factors are unlikely to be important as fear was not associated with NDE.


Cerebal anoxia is ruled out here because most subjects that were examined didn't have an NDE. Would the same logic not also rule out an afterlife as a cause of NDEs?

That raises an important question; what do you think would falsify your hypothesis? What would indicate an impossibility of the mind surving the death of the physical body?
Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose,
And nothin' ain't worth nothin' but it's free.

"Suck me off and I'll turn the voltage down"
User avatar
trubble76
RS Donator
 
Posts: 11205
Age: 47
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Pseudoscience

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest