A rational belief in the afterlife

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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#101  Postby jerome » Sep 13, 2012 12:38 pm

zulumoose wrote:

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'.
You can call anecdotes weighty, well documented, or numerous all you want, they remain lacking in the features that would qualify them as evidence. Anecdotes can be a great motivation to go searching for evidence, to explain what they APPEAR to illustrate, but until such evidence is found and tested, there is no explanation that qualifies as a theory rather than a hypothesis.


Hang on a minute! Where is he citing anecdotal evidence? I may be thick as a very thick thing but the research he is referring to is perfectly scientific double blinded and peer reviewed: Archie Roy, David Fontana, Bernard Carr, etc, etc are not fools. Nor Gauld, Cornell, or I assume the NDE crowd though I have little knowledge of their work. In the past we have discussed these things pleasantly, at length, and many forum members have read the papers - we have even experimented to test (and falsified) Colvin's poltergeist raps hypothesis. Please, let this not fall to ad hominems. I am VERY familiar with the academic literature on some of this; as is Sunchime, another SPR member and forum member (though she just plays forum games like Winter Bells!) who has just submitted her PHD in apparitonal research. Attack the individual pieces of research presented, not Dr P.

j x
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#102  Postby Fallible » Sep 13, 2012 12:39 pm

chairman bill wrote:
Fallible wrote:Since the Doc is being coy, I thought I'd google a bit. I found an interview on Subversive Thinking, a blog, with the Doc. Extract:<snip>


There was no need to go to such trouble, I'd already posted it ;)

chairman bill wrote:This seems to be the standard Christine accepts as TRUE SCIENCE ...

An interview with Piero Calvi-Parisetti about survival of consciousness, mediumship and the afterlife.http://subversivethinking.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/interview-with-piero-calvi-parisetti.html
5-In your opinion, which is the most convincing single piece of evidence for survival of consciousness?

It is really difficult for me to pick one. If I really had to, it would probably be the Scole experiment. That is a wide set of pieces of evidence, though. If I were to really chose one piece, just the one, then I would let my heart do the judging, not my mind. There are things that speak to me as a person, as a human being, much more than as a man of science. Look up on YouTube, for example, the video in which medium Gordon Smith does a stage demonstration in the US. You can tell, because the video is in black and white, and he’s wearing a kilt. Or the other video, in which he talks to a couple of bereaved parents. Every time I watch those, my eyes well with tears. All the warmth, the compassion, quite apart from the incredibly accurate information… Then I feel that I don’t really need to know anything else.
(My bolding of text)


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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#103  Postby Matthew Shute » Sep 13, 2012 12:43 pm

chairman bill wrote:
Fallible wrote:Since the Doc is being coy, I thought I'd google a bit. I found an interview on Subversive Thinking, a blog, with the Doc. Extract:<snip>


There was no need to go to such trouble, I'd already posted it ;)


Neither of you needed to bother. I'd put it up in post #3.
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#104  Postby jerome » Sep 13, 2012 12:43 pm

And call me irrational all you like, but I have put twenty five years in on the issues, attended lots of conferences, ploughed through at least 800 journals and written hundreds of thousands of words, met the people involved and cross examined them, and I have a sincere belief they are on to something: ther eis evidence that needs explaining. It could be survival; it could be underdetermined by something like psi, or by advances in psychology and neurology, but I believe firmly it is perfectly possible to hold a rational belief in afterlife. I am as irrational as the next man; but I possess some critical faculties. I may or may not agree with DR P on many things - and as i have to return to work now i won't know for a while - but don't just dismiss the case based upon your prejuidces without considering the evidence.

And as to the cite from the doctor; anyone who has experienced depression, and like me is at times sentimental can relate to emotional factors clouding our judgement sure, but that is now reason to dismiss them. At least Gordon Smith has repeatedly worked with PRISM to be tested, and I have respect for his (smith's) book on bereavement which has much sense in it.
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#105  Postby Fallible » Sep 13, 2012 12:44 pm

Matthew Shute wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Fallible wrote:Since the Doc is being coy, I thought I'd google a bit. I found an interview on Subversive Thinking, a blog, with the Doc. Extract:<snip>


There was no need to go to such trouble, I'd already posted it ;)


Neither of you needed to bother. I'd put it up in post #3.


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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#106  Postby zulumoose » Sep 13, 2012 12:45 pm

jerome wrote:
zulumoose wrote:
Hang on a minute! Where is he citing anecdotal evidence?


There are many of his posts where he not only refers to his evidence as anecdotal himself, but seems appalled that we do not accept anecdotes as evidence, and even goes on to defend the use of anecdotes and explain why he considers them to be evidence.

How did you miss this?
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#107  Postby Fallible » Sep 13, 2012 12:46 pm

jerome wrote:And call me irrational all you like, but I have put twenty five years in on the issues, attended lots of conferences, ploughed through at least 800 journals and written hundreds of thousands of words, met the people involved and cross examined them, and I have a sincere belief they are on to something: ther eis evidence that needs explaining. It could be survival; it could be underdetermined by something like psi, or by advances in psychology and neurology, but I believe firmly it is perfectly possible to hold a rational belief in afterlife. I am as irrational as the next man; but I possess some critical faculties. I may or may not agree with DR P on many things - and as i have to return to work now i won't know for a while - but don't just dismiss the case based upon your prejuidces without considering the evidence.

And as to the cite from the doctor; anyone who has experienced depression, and like me is at times sentimental can relate to emotional factors clouding our judgement sure, but that is now reason to dismiss them. At least Gordon Smith has repeatedly worked with PRISM to be tested, and I have respect for his (smith's) book on bereavement which has much sense in it.
j x


Good, you have a sincere belief, you think there is evidence that needs explaining. How does that help?
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#108  Postby jerome » Sep 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Easy not read the thread yet, as I said! Apologies if I spoke too quickly. I noted he cited Roy, Beischel etc who do produce reasonable quality papers, so went on those. I'll read carefully after I finish work tonight.

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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#109  Postby Made of Stars » Sep 13, 2012 12:48 pm

J, I don't think the membership are so concerned with what yourself or Dr P believe is possible. The membership is more interested in hearing the rational basis for an afterlife. Where is the afterlife (or rather afterdeath) consciousness seated or hosted, for example?

All these poor simple mechanists want a mechanism. Without that, its all just hand-waving.
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#110  Postby jerome » Sep 13, 2012 12:50 pm

Fallible wrote:

Good, you have a sincere belief, you think there is evidence that needs explaining. How does that help?



I have an informed opinion. :) I think Dr Pariseti needs to concentrate on presenting decent papers rather than an overview of the entire issue, but his choice not mine. I simply think it is wrong headed to dismiss him without examining the actual science. Beast Rabban also has a fantastic knowledge of the literature, and could contribute.
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#111  Postby jerome » Sep 13, 2012 12:51 pm

Made of Stars wrote:J, I don't think the membership are so concerned with what yourself or Dr P believe is possible. The membership is more interested in hearing the rational basis for an afterlife. Where is the afterlife (or rather afterdeath) consciousness seated or hosted, for example?

All these poor simple mechanists want a mechanism. Without that, its all just hand-waving.



You are presupposing mechanism: the evidence in question does not point that way. Hence the issue?

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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#112  Postby Made of Stars » Sep 13, 2012 12:54 pm

jerome wrote:
Made of Stars wrote:J, I don't think the membership are so concerned with what yourself or Dr P believe is possible. The membership is more interested in hearing the rational basis for an afterlife. Where is the afterlife (or rather afterdeath) consciousness seated or hosted, for example?

All these poor simple mechanists want a mechanism. Without that, its all just hand-waving.

You are presupposing mechanism: the evidence in question does not point that way. Hence the issue?

j x

You're on a forum of methodological naturalists. You'll have to do better than 'I've listened to lots of people and I think there's something to it'.
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#113  Postby Fenrir » Sep 13, 2012 12:57 pm

An effect without a mechanism?

Why is this thread in theism again?
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#114  Postby Fallible » Sep 13, 2012 12:58 pm

jerome wrote:
Fallible wrote:
j x
Good, you have a sincere belief, you think there is evidence that needs explaining. How does that help?



I have an informed opinion. :)


It's unlikely that anyone here has a totally uninformed opinion, but regardless, I am merely using the words you yourself used. Your opinion can be as informed as all get-out, but simply stating you have it gets us nowhere. No one cares what you sincerely believe, no one cares that you intermittently come here to talk about how informed you are, only what you can show. Come on, CJ. You know how it goes. Talking about all the things you've seen and read and done and leaving it at that falls decidedly flat. Let's see. I want to see what the Doc is referring to when he talks about all that amazing, remarkable evidence - not to just be told it's there.

I think Dr Pariseti needs to concentrate on presenting decent papers rather than an overview of the entire issue, but his choice not mine. I simply think it is wrong headed to dismiss him without examining the actual science. Beast Rabban also has a fantastic knowledge of the literature, and could contribute.


You're objecting to something that no one has done. People in this thread have been doing nothing but asking him to provide evidence. It's not our fault that hasn't happened.
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#115  Postby jerome » Sep 13, 2012 12:59 pm

Methodological Naturalism is just fine: it's when people conflate methodological naturalism with ontological naturalism there is an issue. Plenty of scientists (including a good number of neurologists curiously) are still dualist - I'm a neutral monist. Mechanism (by which I mean something akin to eliminative reductionism) is not scientifcially established: it is a philosophical axiom. It's a pretty sensible one, but one must consider the evidence that seems to contradict it or you end up holding a faith position, and falling victim to blind prejudice like that of all faith-heads

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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#116  Postby jerome » Sep 13, 2012 1:00 pm

Fallible wrote:[ Talking about all the things you've seen and read and done and leaving it at that falls decidedly flat. Let's see. I want to see what the Doc is referring to when he talks about all that amazing, remarkable evidence - not to just be told it's there.



Absolutely. I'll find the Life After Death debate from the old forum later, if no one else can, and link that.

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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#117  Postby Made of Stars » Sep 13, 2012 1:01 pm

Fenrir wrote:An effect without a mechanism?

Why is this thread in theism again?

Iunno, something about uncaused causes? :scratch:
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#118  Postby jerome » Sep 13, 2012 1:03 pm

I assumed by mechanistic M.O.S meant as in "materialist": I'm not denying causality. I'm denying "Self" = "brain activity"

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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#119  Postby Made of Stars » Sep 13, 2012 1:07 pm

jerome wrote:Methodological Naturalism is just fine: it's when people conflate methodological naturalism with ontological naturalism there is an issue. Plenty of scientists (including a good number of neurologists curiously) are still dualist - I'm a neutral monist. Mechanism (by which I mean something akin to eliminative reductionism) is not scientifcially established: it is a philosophical axiom. It's a pretty sensible one, but one must consider the evidence that seems to contradict it or you end up holding a faith position, and falling victim to blind prejudice like that of all faith-heads

j x

Eliminative reductionism and methodological naturalism are not scientifically established? :lol: They're the core philosophies of science itself, which, last time I checked, seemed to work pretty well. :) I get that you're into NOMA or something, but if you or Dr P want to be taken seriously on this topic you'll have to do better than earnest insistence as an argument.

So, again, what's the rational basis for believing in life after death, or perhaps 'extracorporeal life'? Something other than collected anecdotes would be nice.
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Re: A rational belief in the afterlife

#120  Postby Fallible » Sep 13, 2012 1:09 pm

jerome wrote:
Fallible wrote:[ Talking about all the things you've seen and read and done and leaving it at that falls decidedly flat. Let's see. I want to see what the Doc is referring to when he talks about all that amazing, remarkable evidence - not to just be told it's there.



Absolutely. I'll find the Life After Death debate from the old forum later, if no one else can, and link that.

j x


Well that would be nice, but my understanding is the thread is about the Doc's claims and the evidence that convinced him, so I'd like to see what he brings. Be interesting to see what he thinks if you bring some evidence though - I have a theory.
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